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Sekera was the Sabres BEST defensemen

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Old
05-30-2012, 03:58 PM
  #226
struckbyaparkedcar
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I love my Sagat avatar and all, but this thread is too good not to switch things up...

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05-30-2012, 04:03 PM
  #227
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05-30-2012, 04:09 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
i represented all those stats within the context of role and avg ice time...

i literally presented ALL of the stats... you just don't like them. So you continue to ignore them.



yea, this line of reasoning is usually for those who find that the stats dont support their "visual observation"...

but hey, as long as you dont plan on bringing stats to a debate on this board ever again...
I don't like how the stats are created, no. I've been very consistent that I am not a fan of the derived metrics like this in the context of team sports.

But hey, you can keep insulting me even though I pretty much agree with the point you're trying to make.

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05-30-2012, 04:13 PM
  #229
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Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
I don't like how the stats are created, no. I've been very consistent that I am not a fan of the derived metrics like this in the context of team sports.

But hey, you can keep insulting me even though I pretty much agree with the point you're trying to make.
do you really feel insulted by my comments?

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05-30-2012, 04:13 PM
  #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heartsabres View Post
am I


In which situation on the ice would you rather have Sekera over Myers?
Last season, I'll take Sekera's d-zone play over Myers'. Easily.

It's not like we're saying we'd build a franchise around Sekera instead of Myers.

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05-30-2012, 04:16 PM
  #231
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
do you really feel insulted by my comments?
Meh, not really. Wasn't a great word choice. I'll own that.

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05-30-2012, 05:32 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by Fatal System Ehrhoff View Post
7 out of the last 8 posts

seriously stop having such terrible opinions HS
Should I do what you do eat someone elses and then regurgitate them up later?

Myers is the best Defenceman this year last year next vear the year before the year after the year next the year before last and the year after the next.


Jame can hug hug Moneyball stats all he wants hey it got them to the post season didnt it?

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05-30-2012, 05:33 PM
  #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heartsabres View Post
Should I do what you do eat someone elses and then regurgitate them up later?

Myers is the best Defenceman this year last year next vear the year before the year after the year next the year before last and the year after the next.


Jame can hug hug Moneyball stats all he wants hey it got them to the post season didnt it?
I notice Myers didn't get them to the postseason this year either.

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05-30-2012, 05:36 PM
  #234
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Originally Posted by BuiltTagonTough View Post
I notice Myers didn't get them to the postseason this year either.
My thought exactly Myers didnt get any tough matchups this season how can you say he was our best D?

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05-30-2012, 05:38 PM
  #235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heartsabres View Post
Should I do what you do eat someone elses and then regurgitate them up later?

Myers is the best Defenceman this year last year next vear the year before the year after the year next the year before last and the year after the next.


Jame can hug hug Moneyball stats all he wants hey it got them to the post season didnt it?
I feel like you want me to be offended, but you can't even construct verbal bile worth a damn. I wish I could give you amnesia so you could see how bad your posts are from an objective standpoint. Plus, you might grow to hate the poster as much as we all are starting to!

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05-30-2012, 05:38 PM
  #236
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Originally Posted by thefifagod View Post
Actually Sekera is one of my favourites, I liked him 3 seasons ago when he would go end to end and was flying all over the ice, I think he might of scored once or twice on those rushes. Fans were calling for his head back then and I knew he would tun out to be a good player. He would have 4 or 5 great games then 4 or 5 bad games. I just dont think he is our best defenceman. If James argument was he had the best stats then I am on his side as for best player, Myers. I would take Myers in any situation last year over Sekera anyone says otherwise they are eating someone else's opinion.

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05-30-2012, 05:41 PM
  #237
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Originally Posted by heartsabres View Post
Actually Sekera is one of my favourites, I liked him 3 seasons ago when he would go end to end and was flying all over the ice, I think he might of scored once or twice on those rushes. Fans were calling for his head back then and I knew he would tun out to be a good player. He would have 4 or 5 great games then 4 or 5 bad games. I just dont think he is our best defenceman. If James argument was he had the best stats then I am on his side as for best player, Myers. I would take Myers in any situation last year over Sekera anyone says otherwise they are eating someone else's opinion.
Eating someone else's opinion? Jesus. I've heard it all. Your lame argument has turned into "everyone is just copying Jame." It's not that you're just in the extreme minority or anything.

Your argument is flawed. Sekera was better than both Ehrhoff and Myers last season, ergo he was our best defenseman. There is no way around it.

Haven't you already admitted that Sekera had an "A" season last year? And that Myers had a "C" season (I can't be bothered to sift through your posts again to try and cite that)? Does that not make Sekera the Sabres' best defensemen in 2011-2012?


Last edited by gallagt01: 05-30-2012 at 05:50 PM.
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05-30-2012, 05:45 PM
  #238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heartsabres View Post
Actually Sekera is one of my favourites, I liked him 3 seasons ago when he would go end to end and was flying all over the ice, I think he might of scored once or twice on those rushes. Fans were calling for his head back then and I knew he would tun out to be a good player. He would have 4 or 5 great games then 4 or 5 bad games. I just dont think he is our best defenceman. If James argument was he had the best stats then I am on his side as for best player, Myers. I would take Myers in any situation last year over Sekera anyone says otherwise they are eating someone else's opinion.
Yes. Because not one of us looked at the stats and combined them with our own personal viewings of last year to come to the same conclusion.

Mindless sheep are we.

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05-30-2012, 05:54 PM
  #239
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Originally Posted by heartsabres View Post
I would take Myers in any situation last year over Sekera anyone says otherwise they are eating someone else's opinion.
So are we eating your opinion if we agree I guess ill go with weber being our best D so I can have my own opinion

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05-30-2012, 05:58 PM
  #240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heartsabres View Post
Actually Sekera is one of my favourites, I liked him 3 seasons ago when he would go end to end and was flying all over the ice, I think he might of scored once or twice on those rushes. Fans were calling for his head back then and I knew he would tun out to be a good player. He would have 4 or 5 great games then 4 or 5 bad games. I just dont think he is our best defenceman. If James argument was he had the best stats then I am on his side as for best player, Myers. I would take Myers in any situation last year over Sekera anyone says otherwise they are eating someone else's opinion.
Fine. That's not the argument everyone has made though. You can't deny that he WAS our best defensemen last year based on the stats presented to you. That's the point. And the last sentence can't be taken seriously if you read the OP, the stats show how much better Sekera was in his own end last year than Myers.

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05-30-2012, 06:23 PM
  #241
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thefifagod View Post
Fine. That's not the argument everyone has made though. You can't deny that he WAS our best defensemen last year based on the stats presented to you. That's the point. And the last sentence can't be taken seriously if you read the OP, the stats show how much better Sekera was in his own end last year than Myers.
You can easily argue he wasn't our best defenseman last year, as I have throughout this thread. You guys just seem to ignore that there is a lot more to the debate than what Jame has presented, and you take it all as gospel despite the fact that these arguments are extremely flawed.

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05-30-2012, 06:24 PM
  #242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heartsabres View Post
Should I do what you do eat someone elses and then regurgitate them up later?

Myers is the best Defenceman this year last year next vear the year before the year after the year next the year before last and the year after the next.


Jame can hug hug Moneyball stats all he wants hey it got them to the post season didnt it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by heartsabres View Post
Ehrhoffas the best defenceman.
hey look, i caught a troll

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05-30-2012, 06:35 PM
  #243
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
You can easily argue he wasn't our best defenseman last year, as I have throughout this thread. You guys just seem to ignore that there is a lot more to the debate than what Jame has presented, and you take it all as gospel despite the fact that these arguments are extremely flawed.
Because all your arguments, yep those are air tight.

No argument is perfect, anything can be explained more than one way. But when not 1 or 2, but nearly every objective statistic points to Sekera being top of the pile it starts to mean something.

Like we've all said before we aren't taking the stats as the end all be all only argument. They are a tool to help us quantify what we watch and to explain the context. The tools are pretty much in Sekera's favor.

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05-30-2012, 06:35 PM
  #244
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
hey look, i caught a troll
Alright I will settle this. Myers, Ehrhoff, and Sekera are decidedly our 3 best defenseman by far.

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05-30-2012, 06:37 PM
  #245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
You can easily argue he wasn't our best defenseman last year, as I have throughout this thread. You guys just seem to ignore that there is a lot more to the debate than what Jame has presented, and you take it all as gospel despite the fact that these arguments are extremely flawed.
The majority of us have been saying it for almost two months now; Jame just compiled all of the data to prove the group's point (Thanks again). Any point you make is either your opinion or is proven false based on the stats presented.

Edit: BTT said it better than me above.

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05-30-2012, 06:45 PM
  #246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
You can easily argue he wasn't our best defenseman last year, as I have throughout this thread. You guys just seem to ignore that there is a lot more to the debate than what Jame has presented, and you take it all as gospel despite the fact that these arguments are extremely flawed.
its really not easy since you havent made any counter arguments backed up by anything. as far as i can tell your "argument" is that: (all of your posts are quoted below)

1. the offensive defensemen role with high offensive zone starts, is harder and more important then the shut down defensive role. because you state that even though "Sekera was better at his role, Myers/Ehrhoff were the better defensemen last year" you clearly miss the point that Myers was DEMOTED and Sekera took his shutdown role and was BETTER at it this past season.

2. you have a weird opinion that playing more minutes means you are better. Which means you dont understand lindy ruffs systems OR you think Jaro Spacek was a better defensemen then Toni Lydman too.

3. You think that Myers demotion was a promotion... that is really really laughable. but hey, you're bound to have laughable opinions when you have to bend reality to fit your opinion

4. You make multiple straw man arguments

5. you continue to miss the thread topic (performance last year)

6. You weight roles in the weirdest way, giving more value to offense then defense when talking about defensemen. Interesting point, the previous season, when Sekera WASN'T in the shutdown role, he had the same number of ES points as Myers (23)

7. makes no sense at all

8. sure, you've stated it a lot... and backed it up with nothing.

9. i suggest you provide the merits, if you intend to actually support your "eyeball" test opinion...


1
Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Sekera was the best at playing his role. When he had to step up and play the role that Myers and Ehrhoff were asked to play on a nightly basis, he was terrible.
2
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
I'll tell you what he's not: a minute eating top pairing defenseman.

The best defensemen are the ones who play the most. They play the most because they are better than the guys who play less. This is common sense.

I know another way you can tell who the best defensemen are: if they are out ofthe line up the team is much worse. When Ehrhoff and Myers are out, this is a bad team. When Sekera is out, they carry on like normal. Pretty telling.

Sekera is a good mid-pair defenseman that can play against other team top players. Who's really the one with the agenda, the guy who is trying to put him on a pedastle as our best defenseman, or me for saying he's a solid mid-pair guy, nothing more or less?
3
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Maybe it's not Myers that is being sheltered, it's Ruff wanting him to play with his most productive forwards, thus getting matched up against other teams checking lines and Sekera-esque shut down pairings. When you are a team that struggles to score, you are going to want your top defensemen playing with your best forwards more than normal. I'm willing to bet that Sekera was on the ice an awful lot with the Gaustad-Kaleta-Gerbe/similar role line, while Myers and Ehrhoff were probably playing a lot with Roy, Vanek, Pominville. Based on his PK time, it pretty obvious they were not intentionally sheltering Myers.
4
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
This is a product of those forwards getting the most ice time. Did Sekera play significantly more than Myers with the Goose line? If he was playing against other top lines then I would guess that would be a yes.

But again, if Sekera was so good and so valuable to this team, why do they falter without Myers and Ehrhoff but look fine without Sekera?
4
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
If Sekera WAS our best defenseman last season, the team would have suffered more when he was out than when Myers or Ehrhoff were out. No matter how you want to spin it, Myers and Ehrhoff are/were better and more valuable. Sekera played very well, but if he really played like our best defenseman, he would have been more important. Myers and Ehrhoff have more impact, therefore were better. It's not as complicated as you guys are trying to make it.
5.
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
@punkr0x

Just wanted to point out that you said Sekera is clearly ahead of Myers. What does that mean? On the depth chart? In terms of talent? In terms of impact on the team? And I mean last year, because I don't see him being ahead of Myers in any of these.
6
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
100% correct. This entire thread is skewed by the different roles they play and the failure to take that into account. Myers and Ehrhoff are asked to jump into the play while Sekera did it far less. Of course their d stats are going to suffer. If Sekera were to play a similar role his stats wouldn't be as good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
I couldn't possibly. But would you really argue he joined the rush even remotely as often as the other two? Yes, he did on occassion. But Ehrhoff and Myers did it regularly.
7
Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Which role is most difficult is obviously dependent on the player. Which role does RR think is easier?


8
Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
air enough, but your stats still don't represent what we are talking about, and I doubt the stat exists. If you can tell me that Sekera was beating opposition forwards up the ice to create as many odd man rushes as Myers and Ehrhoff, then good for you. I don't think he was remotely close in this aspect, and I think that it effects these numbers which don't take the risks into account

I have stated a couple of times in this thread that Myers and Ehrhoff were better because they had more impact on the team
; the teams entire style changed without them, whereas without Sekera there was very little change. Do you at least agree with that?
9
Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Agreed. That's why I said they both should be considered as part of broader conversation. Jame did a good job presenting Sekera's merits, but the merits of the other players have been mostly ignored in this thread.

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05-30-2012, 07:46 PM
  #247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heartsabres View Post
Myers is the best Defenceman this year last year next vear the year before the year after the year next the year before last and the year after the next.
I think you're confusing most TALENTED for PERFORMANCE.

Myers is easily the most innately talented Defenseman the Sabres have..

However, he did not perform as the best Sabres defenseman this past year. Sekera PERFORMED as the Sabres best Dman, and by any measure (tangible or the "eye-test"), it really wasn't all that close.

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05-30-2012, 07:53 PM
  #248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heartsabres View Post
Should I do what you do eat someone elses and then regurgitate them up later?

Myers is the best Defenceman this year last year next vear the year before the year after the year next the year before last and the year after the next.


Jame can hug hug Moneyball stats all he wants hey it got them to the post season didnt it?
Wow, seriously, not trying to "trap you" .... Are you in your teens, twenties, thirties, older? It may explain your frame of mind to others who disagree or agree with your posts

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05-30-2012, 08:29 PM
  #249
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Honest question to break from the Jame - Heartsabres drama:

Is there a stat (combination of stats) that accounts for puck possession?

I agree wholeheartedly that Sekera was the best Buffalo defenseman last year - that's evident from the stats. Just watching the games (particularly during the late season run) it seemed like Myers was breaking up plays, gaining possession, and moving the puck / carrying the puck frequently.

Is that accounted for in anyway? If so, do the stats bear that out, or was I over-aware of something that wasn't happening as frequently as I thought?

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05-30-2012, 09:07 PM
  #250
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Originally Posted by Der Jaeger View Post
Honest question to break from the Jame - Heartsabres drama:

Is there a stat (combination of stats) that accounts for puck possession?

I agree wholeheartedly that Sekera was the best Buffalo defenseman last year - that's evident from the stats. Just watching the games (particularly during the late season run) it seemed like Myers was breaking up plays, gaining possession, and moving the puck / carrying the puck frequently.

Is that accounted for in anyway? If so, do the stats bear that out, or was I over-aware of something that wasn't happening as frequently as I thought?
I think that's what Corsi more or less measures.

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