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Sekera was the Sabres BEST defensemen

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Old
05-30-2012, 09:20 PM
  #251
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Originally Posted by Husko View Post
I think that's what Corsi more or less measures.
Thanks. Just read that from behindthenet.ca as well.

It mentioned corsi as a proxy for puck possession. Is there another way / method?

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05-30-2012, 09:25 PM
  #252
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Corsi is basically a +/- with regards to shots. It's not a perfect surrogate for puck possession, but the idea is if you have the puck your shots for will be greater than your shots against, and vice versa for when you don't have the puck. Ideally, we'd have access to zone times (amount of time spent in each zone while player is on the ice), but I don't know any sites that track that (individual teams though may track it for their own internal purposes).

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05-30-2012, 09:27 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by heartsabres View Post
Actually Sekera is one of my favourites, I liked him 3 seasons ago when he would go end to end and was flying all over the ice, I think he might of scored once or twice on those rushes. Fans were calling for his head back then and I knew he would tun out to be a good player. He would have 4 or 5 great games then 4 or 5 bad games. I just dont think he is our best defenceman. If James argument was he had the best stats then I am on his side as for best player, Myers. I would take Myers in any situation last year over Sekera anyone says otherwise they are eating someone else's opinion.
I think both of those players need to be continually pushed to be EVEN BETTER by introspective and demanding fans such as yourself. The coaches need our help peoples!!!

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05-30-2012, 09:52 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by LoveDaSwords View Post
Corsi is basically a +/- with regards to shots. It's not a perfect surrogate for puck possession, but the idea is if you have the puck your shots for will be greater than your shots against, and vice versa for when you don't have the puck. Ideally, we'd have access to zone times (amount of time spent in each zone while player is on the ice), but I don't know any sites that track that (individual teams though may track it for their own internal purposes).
Thanks. It's as close as we get. Sekera was better. . . I didn't see a feature to segregate corsi, or any other stat, into months. I wonder how Myers did during the late run. I remember him being dominant, at times, in a puck possession role, with teams having trouble even retaining the puck in the offensive zone.

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05-30-2012, 11:58 PM
  #255
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i owen wilsoned you

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05-31-2012, 06:17 AM
  #256
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
its really not easy since you havent made any counter arguments backed up by anything. as far as i can tell your "argument" is that: (all of your posts are quoted below)

1. the offensive defensemen role with high offensive zone starts, is harder and more important then the shut down defensive role. because you state that even though "Sekera was better at his role, Myers/Ehrhoff were the better defensemen last year" you clearly miss the point that Myers was DEMOTED and Sekera took his shutdown role and was BETTER at it this past season.

2. you have a weird opinion that playing more minutes means you are better. Which means you dont understand lindy ruffs systems OR you think Jaro Spacek was a better defensemen then Toni Lydman too.

3. You think that Myers demotion was a promotion... that is really really laughable. but hey, you're bound to have laughable opinions when you have to bend reality to fit your opinion

4. You make multiple straw man arguments

5. you continue to miss the thread topic (performance last year)

6. You weight roles in the weirdest way, giving more value to offense then defense when talking about defensemen. Interesting point, the previous season, when Sekera WASN'T in the shutdown role, he had the same number of ES points as Myers (23)

7. makes no sense at all

8. sure, you've stated it a lot... and backed it up with nothing.

9. i suggest you provide the merits, if you intend to actually support your "eyeball" test opinion...


9
Poor Jame doesnīt like whn you disagree with him, then your a stupid head.
I like this one the best. Jame is right the crappy players get all the ice time in the NHL. How else are they going to get better. Oh wait his one example must be the norm. Just to let you know Jame there is more then one reason a player has more icetime but it usually comes down to them being better, they can handle the extra work load, they can play in all situations, SH, PP and ES. They donīt get worse as the more minutes they play like Sekera. For some silly reason Jame forgets that Defenceman can score goals too! Amazing isnīt it. It really is a stat.
Hey fun fact Jame did you know that Offesively gifted Defenceman are more valuable in the NHL the Defensively minded Defenceman. How else would you explain Spacek making more money then Lydman. I know crazy right. Why would a GM give more money to an offensively gifted defenceman? Well this goes back maybe before your time but we old people have an expression, you cant teach offense but you can teach defence. Well that means a player like Spacek, Myers, Ehrhoff who can score, have a good shot and put points on the board are more important to have on your team thus costing you more. Now wait for it......This means that stats like Goals, Assists, PTS, GWG TOI have a huge role in determining how good a player really is. They play a much bigger role the defensive stats before you freak out i am not saying the only role just a more significant one. Or else the world is crazy all agents should be fired and defensive defensemen should be making more then offensive defensemen.
Soak it all in, breathe and relax dont freak out. This is true, if you need something to back it up we can make a list of the two and see who makes more money. Myers is was will be and always is our best defenceman.


The other bolded, see Jame has said in this post it is about Sekeraīs performance but the thread reads that Sekera is better then the other defenceman. Which one is it?

Point number 6, how are defenceman rewarded with the most money? Your statement is clearly wrong as I can list 10 best offensive defenceman that make more then 10 best defensive defenceman. What ever your argument will be to that does not matter because the proof is in the salaries and where it counts is what the GMs and coaches think not Jame

I would take 6 paul coffeys over whatever defensive defenceman with no offensive skill that you would take.


Last edited by heartsabres*: 05-31-2012 at 06:40 AM.
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05-31-2012, 08:53 AM
  #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heartsabres View Post
Poor Jame doesnīt like whn you disagree with him, then your a stupid head.
correct

Quote:
I like this one the best. Jame is right the crappy players get all the ice time in the NHL.
you got part of it right.

Where did i say crappy players get more ice time?

Quote:
Oh wait his one example must be the norm. Just to let you know Jame there is more then one reason a player has more icetime but it usually comes down to them being better, they can handle the extra work load, they can play in all situations, SH, PP and ES. They donīt get worse as the more minutes they play like Sekera.
agreed... maybe a reason like : the team is coached by someone with a LONG history of giving his best defensive players one role, and his offensive defensemen a completely different role.

but hey, i can't explain this to someone who thinks Jaro Spacek is better then Toni Lydman because he gets paid more and scores more points.

Quote:
For some silly reason Jame forgets that Defenceman can score goals too! Amazing isnīt it. It really is a stat.
Thank you for reminding me

Quote:
Hey fun fact Jame did you know that Offesively gifted Defenceman are more valuable in the NHL the Defensively minded Defenceman.
James Wiesnewski and Mark Streit are more valuable then Chris Phillips and Robyn Regehr.... makes sense. Good point


Quote:
How else would you explain Spacek making more money then Lydman. I know crazy right. Why would a GM give more money to an offensively gifted defenceman?
So your point of reference here is Bob Gainey's decision making? Not sure I have to make a counter argument

Quote:
Well this goes back maybe before your time but we old people have an expression, you cant teach offense but you can teach defence.
it must go back pretty far...

Quote:
Well that means a player like Spacek, Myers, Ehrhoff who can score, have a good shot and put points on the board are more important to have on your team thus costing you more. Now wait for it......This means that stats like Goals, Assists, PTS, GWG TOI have a huge role in determining how good a player really is. They play a much bigger role the defensive stats before you freak out i am not saying the only role just a more significant one.
we disagree... I don't care how many points you put up if you play bad defensively.

I bet you were a big Andy Delmore fan.

Jason Woolley, more valuable then Jay McKee right?


Quote:
Or else the world is crazy all agents should be fired and defensive defensemen should be making more then offensive defensemen.
High end offensive defensemen are fewer and farther between then good defensive defensemen. I'm not arguing otherwise...

teams also spend stupidly in free agency. (James Wienewski, Jaro Spacek, etc)


Quote:
Soak it all in, breathe and relax dont freak out. This is true, if you need something to back it up we can make a list of the two and see who makes more money. Myers is was will be and always is our best defenceman.
you can make that list... i don't think it's relevant to who had a better season this past year. nor do I think any sane person would feel bringing salary into a conversation about performance would be indicative of anything

So far, your argument is :
Myers (or was it Ehrhoff?) had a better season then Sekera because he played more minutes, scored more points, and gets paid more.

It's amazing that with such a brilliant argument you haven't won many people over....


Quote:
The other bolded, see Jame has said in this post it is about Sekeraīs performance but the thread reads that Sekera is better then the other defenceman. Which one is it?
The entire thread has been about Sekera's performance last year... good job with the reading comprehension

Quote:
Point number 6, how are defenceman rewarded with the most money? Your statement is clearly wrong as I can list 10 best offensive defenceman that make more then 10 best defensive defenceman. What ever your argument will be to that does not matter because the proof is in the salaries and where it counts is what the GMs and coaches think not Jame
I was unaware that what a GM decides to pay a player can be correlated to how good that players season was.

Ville Leino had a good season

Quote:
I would take 6 paul coffeys over whatever defensive defenceman with no offensive skill that you would take.
I'll take 6 Scott Stevens

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05-31-2012, 09:57 AM
  #258
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
i owen wilsoned you
what?

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05-31-2012, 10:07 AM
  #259
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So Jame you do not the definition of a defensive defenceman. Scott Stevens was not one of them and now you are comparing Scott Stevens to Sekera.
You pick a defenceman who scored over 900 points in the NHL thanks for comming out. You proved my point that offense is more important or else you would of been proud to select a guy who is defence first.

Scott stevens scored 50 or more points 8 times in his career and 40 or more points 11 times why not just pick Bobby Orr, Ray Bourque or Lidstrom since you clearly dont know the definition of defensive defenceman. By the way what was Scott Stevens Corsi rating? lol


James Wiesnewski and Mark Streit are more valuable then Chris Phillips and Robyn Regehr.... makes sense. Good point
so you pick your own players to prove a point?

Ok my turn, so Orpik and Hjalmarsson are better then Karlsson and Pietrangelo? Good call Jame!

Quote:
So far, your argument is :
Myers (or was it Ehrhoff?) had a better season then Sekera because he played more minutes, scored more points, and gets paid more.


Ya where did I say that. Myers is a better defencman then Sekera. PERIOD. According to your thread title you feel otherwise.


Last edited by heartsabres*: 05-31-2012 at 10:22 AM.
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05-31-2012, 10:15 AM
  #260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
(((in reference to "better paid players are always paid more")))
Not sure I have to make a counter argument
You don't have to, but there is a succinct way to do so.
"Yashin"

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05-31-2012, 10:46 AM
  #261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heartsabres View Post
So Jame you do not the definition of a defensive defenceman. Scott Stevens was not one of them and now you are comparing Scott Stevens to Sekera.
You pick a defenceman who scored over 900 points in the NHL thanks for comming out. You proved my point that offense is more important or else you would of been proud to select a guy who is defence first.


Scott stevens scored 50 or more points 8 times in his career and 40 or more points 11 times why not just pick Bobby Orr, Ray Bourque or Lidstrom since you clearly dont know the definition of defensive defenceman. By the way what was Scott Stevens Corsi rating? lol
if you watched hockey, instead of looking it up on the internet, you would know the difference between the 80s and the 90s.




Quote:
James Wiesnewski and Mark Streit are more valuable then Chris Phillips and Robyn Regehr.... makes sense. Good point
so you pick your own players to prove a point?

Ok my turn, so Orpik and Hjalmarsson are better then Karlsson and Pietrangelo? Good call Jame!
The example I gave, was within in your narrow minded assessment of Points+ice time+salary. Which is why i gave the examples i did.

You can't flip the scenario around, because I don't subscribe to your lunatic version of value. To make a counterpoint to MY argument, you would need to provide advanced statistics... like you attempted to do when using Steve Montador and Andrew Ference, etc (even though in that example you missed the landing pad, and crashed and burned)



Quote:
Ya where did I say that. Myers is a better defencman then Sekera. PERIOD. According to your thread title you feel otherwise.

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05-31-2012, 10:47 AM
  #262
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Originally Posted by Der Jaeger View Post
what?
i dont know... i was birthday week drunk all day yesterday

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05-31-2012, 10:55 AM
  #263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heartsabres View Post
According to your thread title you feel otherwise.
Incorrect.

According to the title of the thread PLUS the stuff inside the thread, Jame thinks that Sekera performed as the Sabres best defenseman.


Nowhere does Jame make the claim that Myers is the Sabres' most talented defenseman.

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05-31-2012, 10:57 AM
  #264
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
i owen wilsoned you
Got that now from the "urban word dictionary."

Who are you talking to?

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05-31-2012, 11:18 AM
  #265
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Originally Posted by Der Jaeger View Post
Got that now from the "urban word dictionary."

Who are you talking to?
who knows...

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05-31-2012, 11:19 AM
  #266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heartsabres View Post

Myers is the best Defenceman this year last year next vear the year before the year after the year next the year before last and the year after the next.
Quote:
Originally Posted by heartsabres View Post
Ehrhoffas the best defenceman.

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05-31-2012, 11:20 AM
  #267
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I'm beginning to think there are a few posters on this board who can't differentiate between verb tenses.

For example, was =/= is =/= will be.

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05-31-2012, 11:22 AM
  #268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heartsabres View Post
So Jame you do not the definition of a defensive defenceman. Scott Stevens was not one of them and now you are comparing Scott Stevens to Sekera.
That's terrible English and worse logic. He wasn't comparing Sekera to Scott Stevens, you're reaching to make that point. Can we say you're comparing Myers to Coffey, then?

You just said Scott Stevens was not a defensive defenseman. I do understand he put up nice point totals in the 80s and early 90s, but let's put this hive mind to work and put up a poll on the main board.

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05-31-2012, 11:42 AM
  #269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamers View Post
I'm beginning to think there are a few posters on this board who can't differentiate between verb tenses.

For example, was =/= is =/= will be.
No, I think it is quite clear. Sekera was not, is not, and will not be our best defenseman.

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05-31-2012, 11:46 AM
  #270
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Originally Posted by cybresabre View Post
That's terrible English and worse logic. He wasn't comparing Sekera to Scott Stevens, you're reaching to make that point. Can we say you're comparing Myers to Coffey, then?

You just said Scott Stevens was not a defensive defenseman. I do understand he put up nice point totals in the 80s and early 90s, but let's put this hive mind to work and put up a poll on the main board.
It would be a misconception then. Stevens was a complete d-man. Myers is a complete d-man. Sekera is not a complete d-man. One reason why he was not our best d-man last season.

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05-31-2012, 11:49 AM
  #271
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Originally Posted by jamers View Post
I'm beginning to think there are a few posters on this board who can't differentiate between verb tenses.

For example, was =/= is =/= will be.
and there are some that can't differentiate between "performance" and "ability"

Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
No, I think it is quite clear. Sekera was not, is not, and will not be our best defenseman.
Regardless of how much more talented Myers or Ehrhoff or whoever else you think, Sekera was better then them last year. Continuing to deny that is simply waving a big red "i dont know what im talkin about" flag

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05-31-2012, 11:50 AM
  #272
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It would be a misconception then. Stevens was a complete d-man. Myers is a complete d-man. Sekera is not a complete d-man. One reason why he was not our best d-man last season.
Thomas Vanek is not a complete forward... i guess when he led the team in scoring 2 years ago when Roy got injured, by over 20 points.... he was not their best forward?

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05-31-2012, 11:56 AM
  #273
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Thomas Vanek is not a complete forward... i guess when he led the team in scoring 2 years ago when Roy got injured, by over 20 points.... he was not their best forward?
Apples and oranges. And Vanek didn't have another stud forward to compete with him like Sekera does.

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05-31-2012, 12:00 PM
  #274
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Apples and oranges. And Vanek didn't have another stud forward to compete with him like Sekera does.
right, because your silly logic only applies to defensemen? or only when it fits the opinion you formed before you saw the stats?

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05-31-2012, 12:04 PM
  #275
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Apples and oranges. And Vanek didn't have another stud forward to compete with him like Sekera does.
It's actually a very good analogy... the point is that just because Sekera doesn't have the offensive game that either Myers or Ehrhoff has, doesn't automatically preclude him from being our best player on the blue line last season.

And it's not like Sekera is Regehr out there (absolutely no offense to Regehr). Sekera can transition as well as any of our players out of the defensive zone. In fact, I thought he was one of our best players at moving the puck up the ice, an attribute typically heralded for offensive defensemen. He just doesn't have the shot that Myers or Ehrhoff has.

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