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Ballards and Raymond

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Old
05-31-2012, 02:48 PM
  #26
Vorkosh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blankall View Post
haha Ballard was not your best defenceman. He barely edged out Rome for ice time on the bottom pairing.

In terms of defencemen, he was near the bottom of every stat except for penalty minutes. Ballard also had one of the worst quality of competition matchups on your team:

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...12+13+14+15+16

Ballard was not worth his contract in any way, and him being injured for a large part of the season does not add to his value.
Clearly you don't watch games and only care about stats.

I'll trade you Kesler. He's a perennial 40 goal scorer.

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05-31-2012, 02:53 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by DontgoZiggy View Post
The Kings could be interested in Raymond depending on what his contract demands are.
Would the Kings trade for Raymond in a package involving Bernier, as part of a 3-team deal with TB or Columbus? Just a thought.

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Originally Posted by TheEdge27 View Post
Seems like Ballard is the Paul Martin of Vancouver. Id love to make a deal for those 2 around Martin, with us adding a pick or something. Not sure if Nucks fans feel the same.
So true. So very, very true. Martin and Ballard's contracts are likely undesirable to any other team, unless it's a team trying to get to the cap floor. They're each worth more to their current team than anything they can get in trade, so you might as well keep them.

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05-31-2012, 03:04 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by TheEdge27 View Post
Seems like Ballard is the Paul Martin of Vancouver. Id love to make a deal for those 2 around Martin, with us adding a pick or something. Not sure if Nucks fans feel the same.
I would be fine with shipping Raymond's rights for a 4th or 5th round pick but not fine with swapping Ballard with Martin. I don't mind Martin as a defenceman but Ballard is just one of those guys you love to have on your team. He fights, throws epic hipchecks and is a solid puck mover. He is massively underrated by many who don't watch him play or don't factor in context when forming their opinions of him.....
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blankall View Post
haha Ballard was not your best defenceman. He barely edged out Rome for ice time on the bottom pairing.

In terms of defencemen, he was near the bottom of every stat except for penalty minutes. Ballard also had one of the worst quality of competition matchups on your team:

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...12+13+14+15+16

Ballard was not worth his contract in any way, and him being injured for a large part of the season does not add to his value.

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05-31-2012, 03:06 PM
  #29
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Whoa, whoa, whoa.... is there a real chance Vancouver won't even qualify him? Or is that wishful thinking by haters?

That seems crazy to me. Worst case he's a 30-35 point guy with speed who can kill penalties. A LOT of teams could use a player like that on their 3rd line.

If he hits the market, he'll be a $2-3M player, for sure. His qualifying offer is around $2.7M, which is still decent value. An offer sheet of up to approx $3.1M (depending on the new cap) would get back a 2nd rounder.

I'm sure Gillis could offer him a QO and trade his rights for decent value. Seems like a big waste of assets to let him walk for nothing.

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05-31-2012, 03:11 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Blue Goose View Post
Would the Kings trade for Raymond in a package involving Bernier, as part of a 3-team deal with TB or Columbus? Just a thought.



So true. So very, very true. Martin and Ballard's contracts are likely undesirable to any other team, unless it's a team trying to get to the cap floor. They're each worth more to their current team than anything they can get in trade, so you might as well keep them.
Martin's actually playing some decent minutes though.

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05-31-2012, 03:36 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by jamiebez View Post
Whoa, whoa, whoa.... is there a real chance Vancouver won't even qualify him? Or is that wishful thinking by haters?

That seems crazy to me. Worst case he's a 30-35 point guy with speed who can kill penalties. A LOT of teams could use a player like that on their 3rd line.

If he hits the market, he'll be a $2-3M player, for sure. His qualifying offer is around $2.7M, which is still decent value. An offer sheet of up to approx $3.1M (depending on the new cap) would get back a 2nd rounder.

I'm sure Gillis could offer him a QO and trade his rights for decent value. Seems like a big waste of assets to let him walk for nothing.
I am confused as to why more folks dont get this either. They think players like Raymond grow on trees for free. A whole pile of teams will give up their second rounder to offer sheet Raymond. If not Pittsburg then Philly or Boston or who knows. Washington. A whole raft of teams who can use a talented fast winger.



If Raymond cant be signed long term, Gillis has to trade him before July 1st

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05-31-2012, 04:38 PM
  #32
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Raymond will be qualified or his RFA rights will be traded

Anyone who thinks Gillis is letting an asset like that walk is insane

The Canucks have also been very patient with Raymond since his return from injury

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05-31-2012, 04:59 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Vorkosh View Post
Clearly you don't watch games and only care about stats.

I'll trade you Kesler. He's a perennial 40 goal scorer.
I live in Vancouver. See about 30 Vancouver games a year, including several live. Even if the only reason Ballard has been playing limited minutes against poor competition is an irrational hatred by the coach (which doesn't make much sense), that does not change the fact this will substantially affect his trade value.

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05-31-2012, 05:25 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Kip96 View Post
Raymond will be qualified or his RFA rights will be traded

Anyone who thinks Gillis is letting an asset like that walk is insane

The Canucks have also been very patient with Raymond since his return from injury
Considering all the flack I have taken in this thread for not watching games, people need to actually watch Raymond play. He was awful all year. Has no physical game and was easily knocked off the puck.

He's the definition of a player not built for the playoffs. His numbers have fallen substantially in every post-season he has played in.

He'll be a UFA in a year anyways. Why would the Canucks be investing over 2 million into a player like Raymond. They need to get bigger and more physical.

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05-31-2012, 05:34 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by blankall View Post
I live in Vancouver. See about 30 Vancouver games a year, including several live. Even if the only reason Ballard has been playing limited minutes against poor competition is an irrational hatred by the coach (which doesn't make much sense), that does not change the fact this will substantially affect his trade value.

Okay, I too live in Vancouver and have season tickets. Ballard under AV's system is a) playing on the wrong side b) takes time to understand AV's system as AV likes a confident first pass out of the zone into neutral ice.

Ballard's style is a puck moving defenseman, ie, he likes to rush with the puck. As a first pass option, Ballard like anyone else who plays on the wrong side will have a difficult time if they're not used to it, because your fore-hand will put the puck in the middle of ice completely unprotected by your body leaving the puck prone to stick checks and passes being picked off.

If you're playing on the correct side as your shot, your fore-hand is now along the boards with the puck, protected by your body from an incoming check, and the boards on the other side. You can also use said boards to ricochet the puck on a first-pass outlet.

Ballard had to learn these things because AV would not budge from his first pass offense. He has since lightened his stance and allowed Ballard to carry the puck out more, and there has been a significant improvement.

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05-31-2012, 05:37 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Vorkosh View Post
Okay, I too live in Vancouver and have season tickets. Ballard under AV's system is a) playing on the wrong side b) takes time to understand AV's system as AV likes a confident first pass out of the zone into neutral ice.

Ballard's style is a puck moving defenseman, ie, he likes to rush with the puck. As a first pass option, Ballard like anyone else who plays on the wrong side will have a difficult time if they're not used to it, because your fore-hand will put the puck in the middle of ice completely unprotected by your body leaving the puck prone to stick checks and passes being picked off.

If you're playing on the correct hand as your shot, your fore-hand is now along the boards with the puck, protected by your body from an incoming check, and the boards on the other side. You can also use said boards to ricochet the puck on a first-pass outlet.

Ballard had to learn these things because AV would not budge from his first pass offense. He has since lightened his stance and allowed Ballard to carry the puck out more, and there has been a significant improvement.
Who cares why he is playing badly.

He is playing badly and is being paid over 4 million a year. This is going to significantly affect his value. The reasons you've listed might result in a team taking Ballard for next to nothing, because regularly you'd have to pay a team to take a player with that kind of play and contract off your hands.

Ballard essentially becomes a reclamation project until he can show he can play around 20 minutes a night against better competition.

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05-31-2012, 05:40 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by blankall View Post
Who cares why he is playing badly.

He is playing badly and is being paid over 4 million a year. This is going to significantly affect his value. The reasons you've listed might result in a team taking Ballard for next to nothing, because regularly you'd have to pay a team to take a player with that kind of play and contract off your hands.

Ballard essentially becomes a reclamation project until he can show he can play around 20 minutes a night against better competition.
Why on earth would we get rid of Ballard? You're probably one of the very few Vancouverites that would support this train of thought.

Salo is either retiring or going to ask for more than 2 million dollars next year, which he deserves.

Schultz and Garrison are not shoe-ins by any means.

I'm all for keeping Ballard, he's improved to the point where he was our most consistent Defenseman before concussion.

Really? you watch 30 games? several of them live? Sure could have fooled me

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05-31-2012, 06:24 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Vorkosh View Post
Why on earth would we get rid of Ballard? You're probably one of the very few Vancouverites that would support this train of thought.

Salo is either retiring or going to ask for more than 2 million dollars next year, which he deserves.

Schultz and Garrison are not shoe-ins by any means.

I'm all for keeping Ballard, he's improved to the point where he was our most consistent Defenseman before concussion.

Really? you watch 30 games? several of them live? Sure could have fooled me

Fine you win...when his stats show him playing 15 minutes a game or less against lesser competition, he is really playing 20+ minutes a game against the top lines. You just can't see that unless he plays live, because he is really wearing Salo's jersey. When you see him play live though, you can see him winking at you personally though.

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05-31-2012, 06:28 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by blankall View Post
Fine you win...when his stats show him playing 15 minutes a game or less against lesser competition, he is really playing 20+ minutes a game against the top lines. You just can't see that unless he plays live, because he is really wearing Salo's jersey. When you see him play live though, you can see him winking at you personally though.
To be fair, nobody made this claim.

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05-31-2012, 07:05 PM
  #40
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If the price someones paying is just a second, I'll pass. I'm not opposed to trading him, but even at that cap hit...he still contributes more then a second round pick's worth to our team.

Raymond can stay or go at that price.

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Old
05-31-2012, 07:08 PM
  #41
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[QUOTE=Hi-wayman;50345367]
Raymond is a ligitimate top 6 NHL player who just happens to be on a team with 5 solid top six wingers. Of those 5 wingers, Raymond is the best defensively so AV uses him on the 3rd line until needed on the 2nd due to injury.

[QUOTE]

Nope actully Higgins, Hansen and Burrows are all better defensively

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05-31-2012, 07:15 PM
  #42
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[QUOTE=CanuckHero;50369123][QUOTE=Hi-wayman;50345367]
Raymond is a ligitimate top 6 NHL player who just happens to be on a team with 5 solid top six wingers. Of those 5 wingers, Raymond is the best defensively so AV uses him on the 3rd line until needed on the 2nd due to injury.

Quote:

Nope actully Higgins, Hansen and Burrows are all better defensively
I disagree about Higgins. He is not better defensively . Burrows and Hansen are way better than Raymond. They are only second to Kesler defensively.

I take burrows and Hansen over Raymond in trade any day.

But none of that is some kind of justification to just let Raymond WALK or accept some half baked second rounder for him.

Would you accept a second rounder for Burrows or Hansen? No. Second rounders have like a 15% chance of even becoming regulars in the NHL .

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05-31-2012, 08:11 PM
  #43
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[QUOTE=Hackeybuff;50369355][QUOTE=CanuckHero;50369123]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hi-wayman View Post
Raymond is a ligitimate top 6 NHL player who just happens to be on a team with 5 solid top six wingers. Of those 5 wingers, Raymond is the best defensively so AV uses him on the 3rd line until needed on the 2nd due to injury.



I disagree about Higgins. He is not better defensively . Burrows and Hansen are way better than Raymond. They are only second to Kesler defensively.

I take burrows and Hansen over Raymond in trade any day.

But none of that is some kind of justification to just let Raymond WALK or accept some half baked second rounder for him.

Would you accept a second rounder for Burrows or Hansen? No. Second rounders have like a 15% chance of even becoming regulars in the NHL .
I was going to say the same thing. But the difference between Hansen/Burrows and Raymond isn't huge. Not only is Raymond great at transition, but he's great at covering his man in his own zone as well; often you'll see him shadowing a dman creeping in, and breaking up the play to send the puck the other way. Essentially, Raymond is a very good player until he hits the o-zone, at which point he's only average -- which is frustrating given the skill he does possess.

As for the whole Ballard/Martin comparison, I'd say it's apt. That said, I'm not sure I'd want to do that trade now since Ballard did look good down the stretch -- he's finally closing the gap (the criticism levelled against him a year ago when he was a healthy scratch) and seems to have learned the system.

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06-01-2012, 01:57 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Blue Goose View Post
Would the Kings trade for Raymond in a package involving Bernier, as part of a 3-team deal with TB or Columbus? Just a thought.
I doubt it, I think Bernier could get us more than Raymond, but who knows. I would think lombardi would try to get a young potential top 6 nhl ready winger on an elc like connolly. Raymond could probably be a backup option if Penner isn't resigned and we don't land Parise.

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06-01-2012, 02:08 AM
  #45
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kaberle+bourque

I know I would do it but I may be only one. lol

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06-01-2012, 02:35 AM
  #46
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I doubt it, I think Bernier could get us more than Raymond, but who knows. I would think lombardi would try to get a young potential top 6 nhl ready winger on an elc like connolly. Raymond could probably be a backup option if Penner isn't resigned and we don't land Parise.
Oh, I would expect the Kings to get more than just Raymond in a Bernier trade. And I think he'd be a great replacement for Penner (his decent playoff run can't make up for his miserable regular season). I was thinking of something along the lines of this:

VAN gets:
Brett Connolly
TB 3rd rd pick (#71)

LA gets:
Mason Raymond
TB 1st rd pick (#19, via DET)

TB gets:
Jonathan Bernier
Chris Tanev

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06-01-2012, 02:44 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Blue Goose View Post
Oh, I would expect the Kings to get more than just Raymond in a Bernier trade. And I think he'd be a great replacement for Penner (his decent playoff run can't make up for his miserable regular season). I was thinking of something along the lines of this:

VAN gets:
Brett Connolly
TB 3rd rd pick (#71)

LA gets:
Mason Raymond
TB 1st rd pick (#19, via DET)

TB gets:
Jonathan Bernier
Chris Tanev
I'd hope the kings would deal with each club individually if a trade were to happen


eg


LA get

Connolly
2nd

Tampa get

Bernier
D prospect

---------

LA get

Rights to Raymond (Assuming his demands aren't silly)

Van get

a pick

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Old
06-01-2012, 03:24 AM
  #48
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Raymond's strength was that he drove play. He was never a huge offensive threat, and won't be unless he ***** out some soft hands. What he *did* do, was drive possession and get o-zone faceoffs. That allowed AV to play the Sedins in a much more focussed role, and led to greater point production all around.

Since he broke his back, Raymond has been a hindrance, not a help. I wish him the best, but I can't justify qualifying him at 2.5 given the year he had.

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06-01-2012, 10:02 AM
  #49
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Raymond's strength was that he drove play. He was never a huge offensive threat, and won't be unless he ***** out some soft hands. What he *did* do, was drive possession and get o-zone faceoffs. That allowed AV to play the Sedins in a much more focussed role, and led to greater point production all around.

Since he broke his back, Raymond has been a hindrance, not a help. I wish him the best, but I can't justify qualifying him at 2.5 given the year he had.
How so? This seems to be such a common thought, but just imagine the kinds of contracts that will be given out in free agency again this year. I really don't think there will be a better option available for that price tag.

Over an 82 game season, Raymond was on pace for 15g and 15a last year. In a year where generally the entire team underperformed, I would think he could have pocketed a couple of extra assists if that weren't the case. Let's say Raymond has a very modest increase in points, maybe 18g and 22a for 40pts. Then, with an offseason to train, he gains back some extra strength on his skates. Would you not pay 2.6mil for such a player? I certainly would. If Raymond were coming off a season like that, he'd probably get 3.25mil in free agency easy.

I think the scenario I've outlined is very safe as in it's more likely he does better than that rather than worse. Given that, qualifying him at 2.6mil isn't bad at all. Personally, I'd rather sign him for 2 years at 2.6mil. Then when he does bounce back, we get an extra year of him at a low cap hit.

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