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Old
05-31-2012, 04:20 PM
  #26
Drydenwasthebest
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Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
Subban is neither right now. He's a 2nd pairing guy on most teams. However he has the potential to be a top pairing guy as he matures, and becomes better in his own end.

But the bigger question is why does Montreal do this trade? There's absolutely nothing beneficial to them. Subban (as much as I dislike him for his slewfooting and antics), is better than MDZ, both currently and in potential. And the rest of the parts don't make any compelling reason to go from Subban to MDZ.
Outright ignorant on top of wrong in every way (the bolded part). Subban was 14th in TOI, played significant time on the PP, PK, and a shutdown role against other teams' top lines all the while being 28th in scoring amongst all defencemen.

Did I mention he is one of only 13 defencemen to have over 30 points, 100 hits AND 100 blocked shots? How about all of the penalties he draws?

Did he make mistakes and take dumb penalties? Yes. He is not perfect. However, he would be a top pairing defenceman on the majority of the teams in the league, and the #1 defenceman on many teams in the league. I would love to know which 60defencemen are better than Subban, because that is how many would have to be better than him for him to be a 2nd PAIRING guy on most teams.

You are correct that Montreal would not make the trade, though. Although I do like Del Zotto and think he does have as much potential as Subban. Rupp would be a terrific pick up for the Habs, and Dubinsky is a decent player who might simply need a change of scenery. Those pieces, though, don't add up to the value we believe Subban has and will have.

I think the OP put good thought into this, in terms of value, but Montreal says "no" because you need all 3 pieces to get close to that single piece's value.

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Old
05-31-2012, 04:31 PM
  #27
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Irregardless of the other pieces and their perceived value, the important thing for Montreal right there is the D. Montreal's D wasn't very good. They can't trade their #1 D for NYR #4 D. A defense of Markov, Gorges, Del Zotto, Kaberle, Diaz, Emelin, Weber isn't very impressive. The 3 junior guys (Tinordi, Beaulieu, Ellis) aren't coming into Montreal next year, at least not full time. Maybe not for a couple of years. The available D's in Montreal are actually Kaberle, Diaz and Weber. Emelin brings something none of the others bring. Markov we're hoping he regains some of the pre-injury form, Gorges is the only safe D. PK can't leave because he's #1. If you can't consider Del Zotto a #1, he doesn't fit in Montreal. I like what the other two bring, though, the proposal just doesn't fit.

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Old
05-31-2012, 04:39 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Rad Brichards View Post
Just a sidenote:

Any proposal I make will include Mike Rupp. I hate him so much. He's my least favorite player on the team not named Wade Redden.
Give you a pick for him.

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Old
05-31-2012, 06:13 PM
  #29
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Not only would I do this, but I would carry Del Zotto on my back to Montreal, come back, carry Rupp on my back to Montreal, come back, carry Dubinsky on my back to Montreal, and then carry Subban back home. And then I would have intimate relations with the paperwork.

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Old
05-31-2012, 06:19 PM
  #30
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Complete pass from a Montreal standpoint. Deal does nothing for us, we have plenty of lefty PMDs and Dubinsky isn't a top line player.

Subban has quickly become one of the most underrated players at HF someway somehow. Really amazing how fans of other teams seem to know so little about him.

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Old
05-31-2012, 06:30 PM
  #31
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^^ Well for those that don't know imagine Dan Girardi and MDZ had a baby, and gave all their best attributes to that baby, and then you give that baby a nasty attitude. That baby is PK Subban. He's that good.

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Old
05-31-2012, 06:31 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
^^ Well for those that don't know imagine Dan Girardi and MDZ had a baby, and gave all their best attributes to that baby, and then you give that baby a nasty attitude. That baby is PK Subban. He's that good.
Good comparison. Add great skating.

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Old
05-31-2012, 06:37 PM
  #33
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Good comparison. Add great skating.
Yeah great skater too. He's right up there with McDonagh. Not as good as defensively but better offesnveily. Both guys are, as has been said, amazing skaters and extremly physical. In 3-5 years McDonagh/Subban would be the best duo in the league: a duo with elite speed, freakish strength, elite instincts from McDonagh, and a cannon of a shot from Subban. I do this deal 11 times out of 10.

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Old
05-31-2012, 06:38 PM
  #34
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Yeah great skater too. He's right up there with McDonagh. Not as good as defensively but better offesnveily. Both guys are, as has been said, amazing skaters and extremly physical. In 3-5 years McDonagh/Subban would be the best duo in the league: a duo with elite speed, freakish strength, elite instincts from McDonagh, and a cannon of a shot from Subban. I do this deal 11 times out of 10.
God, McDonagh and Subban together would be a thing of beauty. Shades of Suter-Weber is what I'd imagine.

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Old
05-31-2012, 06:43 PM
  #35
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God, McDonagh and Subban together would be a thing of beauty. Shades of Suter-Weber is what I'd imagine.
That's exactly what it would be. The righty with the big shot and the understated lefty that all the hardcore fans insist is better And nevermind that Marc Staal would be our #3. Jesus I better stop I'm getting hot

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Old
05-31-2012, 06:47 PM
  #36
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That's exactly what it would be. The righty with the big shot and the understated lefty that all the hardcore fans insist is better And nevermind that Marc Staal would be our #3. Jesus I better stop I'm getting hot
McDonagh-Subban
Staal-Girardi
Erixon-McIlrath

**** me sideways.

Yeah, let's leave fantasyland.

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Old
05-31-2012, 07:32 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
Yeah great skater too. He's right up there with McDonagh. Not as good as defensively but better offesnveily. Both guys are, as has been said, amazing skaters and extremly physical. In 3-5 years McDonagh/Subban would be the best duo in the league: a duo with elite speed, freakish strength, elite instincts from McDonagh, and a cannon of a shot from Subban. I do this deal 11 times out of 10.
Subban is probably a little better overall than McDonagh. Basically a wash in even strength play but Subban has much larger special teams value (particularly on the penalty kill but it hasn't gotten out yet what a force he is there). They are close enough in value of contributions that they are good comparables. The many Subban trade proposals recently don't get that he's an all-situations number one defenseman right now today. That isn't a future ceiling, its a present day reality. Montreal's problems this year had nothing to do with their 1st pairing.

Which should be the question put to the OP. Would you trade that package plus a little extra for McDonagh? Because that's how it looks from Montreal's perspective.

Plus Montreal drafts well and has a big budget to handle the needs for mid-tier players. They should never be interested in trading top level talent for quantity because that's top level talent is the one thing you can't reliably get from latter round drafting and free agency.

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Old
05-31-2012, 08:10 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Rad Brichards View Post
Rangers trade:

D Michael Del Zotto
LW/C Brandon Dubinsky
RW Mike Rupp


Canadians trade:

D P.K. Subban
RW Alexander Avtsin


As a Rangers fan, we could really use Subban's blast of a shot on the PP.
Rupp is basicly useless.
No room for Dubinsky.He'd likely would end up on our 3 rd line.
Del Zotto si just another #4 D-man

P.K is so much better than Del Zotto that adding Dubinsky isn't even close to enough for us to even think about trading P.K.

For you guys to peak our interest in giving up P.K you better think around Staal and one of Kreider/Anisimov.

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Old
05-31-2012, 08:25 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Rad Brichards View Post
Rangers trade:

D Michael Del Zotto
LW/C Brandon Dubinsky
RW Mike Rupp


Canadians trade:

D P.K. Subban
RW Alexander Avtsin


As a Rangers fan, we could really use Subban's blast of a shot on the PP.
Terrible deal.WTH is wrong with you.

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Old
05-31-2012, 08:33 PM
  #40
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Rupp is basicly useless.
No room for Dubinsky.He'd likely would end up on our 3 rd line.
Del Zotto si just another #4 D-man

P.K is so much better than Del Zotto that adding Dubinsky isn't even close to enough for us to even think about trading P.K.

For you guys to peak our interest in giving up P.K you better think around Staal and one of Kreider/Anisimov.
Hahahahahahah you guys overrate your players tremendously.

Subban is not an elite defenseman, get over yourself.

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Old
05-31-2012, 08:39 PM
  #41
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Hahahahahahah you guys overrate your players tremendously.

Subban is not an elite defenseman, get over yourself.
I've had enough MTL fandom for one day. I have a headache lol.

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Old
05-31-2012, 08:40 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Coldshot View Post
Hahahahahahah you guys overrate your players tremendously.

Subban is not an elite defenseman, get over yourself.
Or you overrate your players. Subban is really that good.

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Old
05-31-2012, 08:40 PM
  #43
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No interest in MDZ or Dubinsky. Huge pass from a Habs standpoint. If we are trading Subban it would be for an upgrade, not downgrade.

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Old
05-31-2012, 08:42 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
Not only would I do this, but I would carry Del Zotto on my back to Montreal, come back, carry Rupp on my back to Montreal, come back, carry Dubinsky on my back to Montreal, and then carry Subban back home. And then I would have intimate relations with the paperwork.
LOL!! My favorite post of the week. Thank you.

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Old
05-31-2012, 08:49 PM
  #45
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Hahahahahahah you guys overrate your players tremendously.

Subban is not an elite defenseman, get over yourself.
Have you noticed the non-Habs fans telling people how great Subban is? You might want to recognize that there are fans on the Rangers and (I think) Anaheim also stating the
OP is not good for the Habs because of how good Subban is. Believe me, it s not just Habs fans who see that he is a terrific payer with elite potential.

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Old
05-31-2012, 08:50 PM
  #46
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MTL already has Markov, Gorges, Kaberle, and Emelin on the left side. On the right it is Subban, Diaz, and Weber. It makes less than no sense to trade our top D (who plays on the right) for an LD and leave Diaz as a top pairing guy.

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Old
05-31-2012, 08:52 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
Subban is probably a little better overall than McDonagh. Basically a wash in even strength play but Subban has much larger special teams value (particularly on the penalty kill but it hasn't gotten out yet what a force he is there). They are close enough in value of contributions that they are good comparables. The many Subban trade proposals recently don't get that he's an all-situations number one defenseman right now today. That isn't a future ceiling, its a present day reality. Montreal's problems this year had nothing to do with their 1st pairing.

Which should be the question put to the OP. Would you trade that package plus a little extra for McDonagh? Because that's how it looks from Montreal's perspective.

Plus Montreal drafts well and has a big budget to handle the needs for mid-tier players. They should never be interested in trading top level talent for quantity because that's top level talent is the one thing you can't reliably get from latter round drafting and free agency.
...Subban has higher value than McDonagh on the penalty kill?

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Old
05-31-2012, 08:55 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
Have you noticed the non-Habs fans telling people how great Subban is? You might want to recognize that there are fans on the Rangers and (I think) Anaheim also stating the
OP is not good for the Habs because of how good Subban is. Believe me, it s not just Habs fans who see that he is a terrific payer with elite potential.
Potential is the key word.

He's not there yet, and I haven't seen anything that would say "Elite" potential. When you say Elite, that means Norris Candidate. I don't see a future Norris Candidate there. I see a good defenseman that's sometimes sloppy and sometimes plays a little too aggressive for his own good.

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Old
05-31-2012, 09:20 PM
  #49
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Easy yes from the Rangers.

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Old
05-31-2012, 09:24 PM
  #50
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boyle for leblonc?

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