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Sekera was the Sabres BEST defensemen

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Old
05-31-2012, 12:07 PM
  #276
Jame
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamers View Post
It's actually a very good analogy... the point is that just because Sekera doesn't have the offensive game that either Myers or Ehrhoff has, doesn't automatically preclude him from being our best player on the blue line last season.

And it's not like Sekera is Regehr out there (absolutely no offense to Regehr). Sekera can transition as well as any of our players out of the defensive zone. In fact, I thought he was one of our best players at moving the puck up the ice, an attribute typically heralded for offensive defensemen. He just doesn't have the shot that Myers or Ehrhoff has.
and the simple fact is that the Sabres create As much or MORE offense at ES when Sekera is on the ice, then Myers... FACT

Last Year 2011-2012:
Goals for per 60 on ice
1. Ehrhoff 2.85
2. Leopold 2.62
3. Sekera 2.51
4. Myers 2.47

5. Regehr 1.50
6. Weber 1.37

People don't like advanced stats when it doesn't support their incorrect position

SEKERA IS A COMPLETE DEFENSEMEN

SEKERA WAS BETTER THEN MYERS LAST YEAR


2010-2011 ES Points
Myers 23
Sekera 23

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05-31-2012, 12:09 PM
  #277
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
right, because your silly logic only applies to defensemen? or only when it fits the opinion you formed before you saw the stats?
No, it was just a horrible comparison by you. Was there a top flight, complete forward on that team that Vanek had to compete with to be the best forward? No, especially with Pominville being hurt. So your comparison doesn't work.

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05-31-2012, 12:11 PM
  #278
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To shift gears a bit, look at the Rangers for example.

Who would people say was their best defensemen last year? Was it McDonagh or was it Del Zotto?

Del Zotto had more points, whereas McDonagh is primarily a defensive defensemen...

Again, the point is not that Sekera = McDonagh and Myers = Del Zotto. The point is that it doesn't matter what role a player has (within reason, hard for a 4th line grinder to be the best forward), as long as they perform it very well, which Sekera did, you can make the argument that he was their best player at the position, which has been done to exhaustion in this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
No, it was just a horrible comparison by you. Was there a top flight, complete forward on that team that Vanek had to compete with to be the best forward? No, especially with Pominville being hurt. So your comparison doesn't work.
I'm confused. Sekera had TWO 'top flight, complete' players (Myers and Ehrhoff) that he had to compete with, and the argument for him still being the best this past season is quite strong. I guess I'm missing your point when you bring up competition within the team.

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05-31-2012, 12:13 PM
  #279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
No, it was just a horrible comparison by you. Was there a top flight, complete forward on that team that Vanek had to compete with to be the best forward? No, especially with Pominville being hurt. So your comparison doesn't work.
So, there wasn't someone for Sekera to compete with since Myers and Ehrhoff were hurt? Therefore, making Sekera the "best last year" by default, as you just did with Vanek over Pommer?

I can do this all day with you...

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05-31-2012, 12:17 PM
  #280
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Its funny that the other side would say that Stevens doesn't apply here, when he was drafted as a risk-taking offensive defenseman who later embraced a shutdown role and let Rafalski and Niedermayer play more and take more risks. He's obviously better at both ends then Sekera, but the parallels are too good to pass up.

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05-31-2012, 12:21 PM
  #281
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Quote:
Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
Its funny that the other side would say that Stevens doesn't apply here, when he was drafted as a risk-taking offensive defenseman who later embraced a shutdown role and let Rafalski and Niedermayer play more and take more risks. He's obviously better at both ends then Sekera, but the parallels are too good to pass up.
Yep.

There's no rule that states what scouts thought of you when you were 18 is the only way you can develop, and if you develop into a player of significant value but different than what was expected when you were drafted, you're doing it wrong. Who cares what people thought he was going to be...what he is right now matters more.

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05-31-2012, 12:30 PM
  #282
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EVEN STRENGTH

Quality of Competition
1. Regehr +0.065
2. Sekera +0.038
3. Weber +0.002
4. Ehrhoff -0.004
5. Myers -0.013
6. Leopold -0.023

Goals Against per 60 on ice
1. Myers 1.97
2. Regehr 2.01
3. Sekera 2.19
4. Leopold 2.40
5. Ehrhoff 2.70
6. Weber 2.81

Quality of Teammate
1. Ehrhoff +0.081
2. Weber +0.053
3. Regehr -0.008
4. Myers -0.013
5. Sekera -0.053

6. Leopold -0.056

Goals for per 60 on ice
1. Ehrhoff 2.85
2. Leopold 2.62
3. Sekera 2.51
4. Myers 2.47

5. Regehr 1.50
6. Weber 1.37

+/- On ice per 60
1. Myers +0.51
2. Sekera +0.32

3. Leopold +0.22
4. Ehrhoff +0.15
5. Regehr -0.52
6. Weber -1.44

+/- Off ice per 60
1. Sekera -0.03
2. Leopold -0.02
3. Myers +0.03
4. Weber +0.28
5. Ehrhoff +0.35
6. Regehr +0.40

Corsi ON ice (difference in SAF v SAA)
1. Sekera +1.93
2. Ehrhoff +0.86
3. Leopold -3.71
4. Weber -4.10
5. Myers -7.17
6. Regehr -10.88

Corsi OFF ice
1. Sekera -5.35
2. Ehrhoff -3.02
3. Weber -1.02
4. Leopold -0.63
5. Myers -0.03
6. Regehr +3.03


Off Zone Starts
1. Ehrhoff
2. Leopold
3. Myers
4. Sekera

5. Weber
6. Regehr

Off Zone Finish
1. Sekera
2. Ehrhoff
3. Leopold
4. Myers
5. Regehr
6. Weber


POWER PLAY

Goals For per 60 of PP
1. Ehrhoff 7.23
2. Sekera 5.93
3. Myers 5.50

4. Leopold 4.52

Shots For per 60 of PP
1. Ehrhoff 49.0
2. Sekera 45.4
3. Leopold 44.4
4. Myers 39.4

Shots Blocked by opponent per 60 ON
1. Sekera 17.8
2. Leopold 26.0
3. Ehrhoff 26.3
4. Myers 28.9

SHORT HANDED

Shots Against per 60 Short
1. Sekera
2. Ehrhoff
3. Regehr
4. Leopold
5. Weber
6. Myers

Shots Blocked per 60 Short
1. Regehr 26.5
2. Sekera 25.4
3. Myers 22.9
4. Leopold 21.9
5. Weber 20.6
6. Ehrhoff 16.7

Goals Against per 60 Short
1. Ehrhoff 4.17
2. Weber 4.26
3. Myers 6.55
4. Leopold 7.40
5. Sekera 7.56
6. Regehr 8.73

I thought since no one else wanted to bring any facts... i'd post mine again...

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Old
05-31-2012, 12:50 PM
  #283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
So, there wasn't someone for Sekera to compete with since Myers and Ehrhoff were hurt? Therefore, making Sekera the "best last year" by default, as you just did with Vanek over Pommer?

I can do this all day with you...
Oh, right, I forgot. Unless it's a stat that can be put into a spreadsheet it has no meaning to Jame. I'll clue you in since you can only process things like a computer. Pominville played through concussion symptoms and had a down year because of it. Myers and Ehrhoff had injuries that had less of an effect on there overall game when they were actually playing. It's a big difference, but since it can't be put into a stat I can see how it confuses you.

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05-31-2012, 12:55 PM
  #284
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Oh, right, I forgot. Unless it's a stat that can be put into a spreadsheet it has no meaning to Jame. I'll clue you in since you can only process things like a computer. Pominville played through concussion symptoms and had a down year because of it. Myers and Ehrhoff had injuries that had less of an effect on there overall game when they were actually playing. It's a big difference, but since it can't be put into a stat I can see how it confuses you.
So Tyler Myers poor play in January had nothing to do with coming back from a fractured scaphoid on Jan 6th after missing 6 weeks?


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05-31-2012, 01:01 PM
  #285
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my head hurts

the draft -> free agency cant get here fast enough

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05-31-2012, 01:02 PM
  #286
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The scaphoid is the worst healing bone in the body...

Edit: whoops meant to quote Stokes

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05-31-2012, 01:08 PM
  #287
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
So Tyler Myers poor play in January had nothing to do with coming back from a fractured scaphoid on Jan 6th after missing 6 weeks?

To the extent that it effected Pominville? You tell me.

Really, what's the point of this exercise? You get off on acting like a child? If this wasn't common knowledge I'd continue, but you are clearly just trying to be difficult at this point.

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05-31-2012, 01:11 PM
  #288
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thefifagod View Post
The scaphoid is the worst healing bone in the body...

Edit: whoops meant to quote Stokes
That's fine, but myers still played well enough to be considered our best d-man for the majority of the season, while Pominville was in a haze for almost the entire campaign. They are not comparable.

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05-31-2012, 01:15 PM
  #289
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabreality View Post
my head hurts

the draft -> free agency cant get here fast enough
Honestly, it's amusing to watch (presumably) grown men have a wang wagging contest over OTHER people's wangs.


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05-31-2012, 01:45 PM
  #290
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
That's fine, but myers still played well enough to be considered our best d-man for the majority of the season, while Pominville was in a haze for almost the entire campaign. They are not comparable.
No, he did not.

Why are people hanging onto this idea that Myers has played like the dominant player that he has the ability to be?

He hasn't done that since his rookie year. As far as I'm concerned, he is a distant third when discussing the Sabres' best defenseman last season, behind Ehrhoff and the clear cut No. 1, Sekera.

If you truly believe Myers outplayed both Sekera AND Ehrhoff last season, you weren't watching the games.

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05-31-2012, 01:51 PM
  #291
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Originally Posted by Sabreality View Post
my head hurts

the draft -> free agency cant get here fast enough
Are you kidding, this thread is friggin hilarious. It is my favorite one right now.

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Old
05-31-2012, 02:08 PM
  #292
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
To the extent that it effected Pominville? You tell me.

Really, what's the point of this exercise? You get off on acting like a child? If this wasn't common knowledge I'd continue, but you are clearly just trying to be difficult at this point.
The point is that Sekera was the Sabres best defensemen in the 2011-2012 season

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05-31-2012, 02:59 PM
  #293
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There's not much more meat on the bones in this thread ... Mostly backhanded insults and claiming victory. Reminds me of lions fighting over their pride.

I predict thread closed before it reaches 400 posts.


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05-31-2012, 03:25 PM
  #294
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Originally Posted by ZZamboni View Post
There's not much more meat on the bones in this thread ... Mostly backhanded insults and claiming victory. Reminds me of lions fighting over their pride.

I predict thread closed before it reaches 400 posts.

it was fun while it lasted

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Old
05-31-2012, 05:28 PM
  #295
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
it was fun while it lasted
No doubt. Fun debate.

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06-01-2012, 10:19 AM
  #296
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Quote:
Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
Its funny that the other side would say that Stevens doesn't apply here, when he was drafted as a risk-taking offensive defenseman who later embraced a shutdown role and let Rafalski and Niedermayer play more and take more risks. He's obviously better at both ends then Sekera, but the parallels are too good to pass up.


THERE ARE NO PARALLELS between Scott Stevens and Sekera.

Stevens = top 10 dman of all time, one of best and lethal hitters ever... Only time Sekera hits is with his purse.

Stevens scored 40+ points From his 2nd to 11th season.He embraced a shut down role at 31. Sekera has NEVER scored 30 points or ever received major ice time.

Now we can wait for Jame to repost these behind the net stats that are meaningless. Post QoC again for the whole league so we can see Chris Butler 4th overall while you belittle other posters and call them names I thought we debate the post not the poster or does that only apply to certain people

Even if Sekera WAS the best dman all that tells me is that our defense sucks and we need to upgrade. We missed the playoffs where more then half the league makes it... Not really much of an accomplishment to be the best dman on a garbage team.

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06-01-2012, 10:27 AM
  #297
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Originally Posted by FreddieBisco View Post
Even if Sekera WAS the best dman all that tells me is that our defense sucks and we need to upgrade. We missed the playoffs where more then half the league makes it... Not really much of an accomplishment to be the best dman on a garbage team.
So you get around conceding that the point of the thread is correct by downplaying its significance. You're right, it doesn't matter. Why should we evaluate performance on a team that misses the playoffs?

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06-01-2012, 10:44 AM
  #298
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Originally Posted by FreddieBisco View Post


THERE ARE NO PARALLELS between Scott Stevens and Sekera.

Stevens = top 10 dman of all time, one of best and lethal hitters ever... Only time Sekera hits is with his purse.

Stevens scored 40+ points From his 2nd to 11th season.He embraced a shut down role at 31. Sekera has NEVER scored 30 points or ever received major ice time.

Now we can wait for Jame to repost these behind the net stats that are meaningless. Post QoC again for the whole league so we can see Chris Butler 4th overall while you belittle other posters and call them names I thought we debate the post not the poster or does that only apply to certain people

Even if Sekera WAS the best dman all that tells me is that our defense sucks and we need to upgrade. We missed the playoffs where more then half the league makes it... Not really much of an accomplishment to be the best dman on a garbage team.
Scott Stevens is absolutely relevant in the context of this discussion, because several posters are propagating the myth that "whoever plays the most is the best and most valuable, regardless of the difficulty of the minutes played."

Niedermayer played more than Stevens in every playoffs the NHL keeps icetime stats for, but you wouldn't think for a second that he was more valuable than Stevens. Why is that? Because Stevens was his team's best defensive defenseman and sacrificed overall icetime and gaudy offensive numbers to play defense and let other defensemen play easy minutes.

Is he better than Sekera ever will be, at either end of the ice? Certainly, but that's not the ******* point.

Also, good to know that Ryan O'Reilly, Steven Stamkos, John Tavares, etc are all totally irrelevant because they're the best players on "garbage teams." Cause Sekera having a season comparable or better than shutdown defensemen on ****ing playoff teams is the reason we missed the playoffs.

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06-01-2012, 10:48 AM
  #299
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Hockey Abstract posted the usage charts for each team in 2011-12, and analyzed the data, as well. I suggest you all give it a read.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&p...g0NWFmOWEyYzNh

Here's what they had on Sekera:

Quote:
I think many fans recognize the high moments of Sekera's season but it was the maddening inconsistency that led many to miss just how impressive a season Sekera had. The young Slovak experienced quite a role shift this season as Lindy Ruff leaned on him pretty heavily in the defensive zone. Last season Sekera started in the offensive zone 54.3% of the time last year (3rd highest among defensemen); that dropped to 48.9% of the time this season (only Weber and Regehr were lower). Sekera's CorsiQoC also ballooned from 0.234 last season to 0.740 this season. He was relied on much more in the defensive zone, given more starts in the defensive zone along with more difficult competition; yet, he still managed to allow 1.6 fewer shots per 60 minutes despite this shifted role. His 24.6 SA/60 was the best among defensemen this season. His drop in offensive production is likely a side effect of his focus on the defensive end of the rink.

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06-01-2012, 10:53 AM
  #300
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabreality View Post
my head hurts

the draft -> free agency cant get here fast enough
Amen to this.

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