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Old
06-01-2012, 09:11 AM
  #26
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Don't blast the OP fellows.. He doesn't really understand players value. You should see the nonsense he proposes on the Rangers board.

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06-01-2012, 09:12 AM
  #27
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Yeah I don't really get the:
"Jets laugh comments - counter offer: our 4th liner for brad richards".
Understand its not a fit (you don't trade your youth for a 30 year old), but frankly the Jets do get the best player in the deal by far. I have not seen a player get underrated as criminally as Marian Gaborik right now... Even MDZ is getting **** on unnecessarily. Anyone who says he sucked defensively didn't watch him this year. He is occasionally prone to mistakes, but the only games this year he really struggled in were games 5 and 6 of the NJ series. The rest of the year he made few mistakes.

1) Tortorella keeps playing him on the right side. This is a function of the lack of depth on the right side. NY really needs to deal one of Staal and MDZ and get an equivalent on the right because MDZ there does not work.
2) His Nonna died after game 3. If someone close to you dies, your game may be off for a bit.

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06-01-2012, 09:16 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
I wasn't serious, FYI. BTW, that scrub played for your US National Team at the World Championships last month.

Frankly, the original proposal doesn't even warrant any reply.
come one...

The World Championships is filled with scrubs. I don't know a lot about Slater and I'm sure he is a serviceable bottom sixer, but citing the World Championships...

Kreider played their last year, while he was still in college and hadn't played one game in the NHL. It's not exactly an Olympic team.

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Old
06-01-2012, 10:01 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
Neither of those are accurate statements.

Come talk to me when Kane posts his 2nd 3 goal season. Gaborik had two 30 goal seasons in his first 3 years in the league at the same age.

Gaborik has three 40 goal seasons under his belt.

Gaborik scores points in 9 out of every 10 games he plays. Kane approx. 6 out of 10

Kane in his first three years is a +1, Gaborik, was a +6

Kane is not a better player than Gaborik today and has a long way to go before he gets to Gaboriks level.

THAT SAID the Jets still do not make that trade more for financial reasons than for on ice reasons. A building that seats 15K cannot have one player making more than 10% of the NHL cap, not to mention any internal cap they need to work under. For that team to be sucessful, they cannot have those kinds of players.

Bogosian is no better than Del Zotto is defensively, but because he is a bigger guy and somewhat better skater, he has the reach and speed to recover better than Del Zotto. Where I think that Del Zotto has the edge is on the offensive side of the puck. MDZ is far superior to Bogo on offence right now. They are even defensively, MDZ is better offensively, and Bogo is a more physical player.
This post is spot on.

Value wise, the Rangers would need to add a little more, maybe a 1st to balance it out, but Winnipeg doesn't make this trade for financial reasons.

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Old
06-01-2012, 10:06 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldshot View Post
This post is spot on.

Value wise, the Rangers would need to add a little more, maybe a 1st to balance it out, but Winnipeg doesn't make this trade for financial reasons.
Would you trade MDZ, Krieder, and Stepan for Iginla and Giordano and a late 1st?

It isn't (just) about money. It is about value.

Kane's value is significantly higher than Gaborik, though the latter remains a better player, he's a decade older.

Bogosian is as good as MDZ now--I don't really see how anyone who has watched both can argue otherwise--and he has a significantly higher ceiling.

Wheeler is still a young top-6 forward, no a simple throw in. His value is significantly higher than a late 1st.

This is not a very well thought out proposal.

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Old
06-01-2012, 10:07 AM
  #31
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I'm getting tired of explaining that our core players are not for sale unless it's for a huge over payment. As I stated, this isn't it.

Gabby is a GREAT player, but as its been stated he's not a fit for this franchise. Even if he was, a lateral move like this that doesn't make our team any better is pointless.

Kane is 20, and is going to be a great player. I'd rather have all those years of Evander Kane then Gabby.

He's a physical player. He can score. He's the future of the franchise.

The Jets won't trade their pieces in a lateral move like that. It doesnt do anything for us, except piss off our fan base.

It has to benefit the team. This does not.

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Old
06-01-2012, 10:22 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
I wasn't serious, FYI. BTW, that scrub played for your US National Team at the World Championships last month.

Frankly, the original proposal doesn't even warrant any reply.
we all know that ALOT of American players does not participate in those championships cause they don't feel it's an important tournament. Last year you had Stapleton on the US World Championship team, I guess that makes him a solid 1st/2nd liner?

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Old
06-01-2012, 10:42 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhay1987 View Post
Yikes. Rough night for the Jets in the proposals lol
Sure is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanCallahan24 View Post
More like:

Gaborik + Del Zotto + 2012 1st

for

Kane and Bogosian.

That's fair value
No thanks. Kane has way more trade value than Gaborik due to his age (cheap and team control) and his potential to get even better. It's possible Kane never gets any better but even then he'd be at his peak value right now, nowhere near Gaborik who just came off a disgracefully poor showing in the playoffs. I wouldn't trade Kane for Gaborik and a very late first.

Del Zotto, IIRC, was drafted just after Bogosian; At this point I still see no reason to take Del Zotto instead of Bogosian. They both still strike me as late bloomers with very high potential and it's possible they end up roughly equal in offensive and defensive skill. Del Zotto will never match Bogosian's physical play though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
Would you trade MDZ, Krieder, and Stepan for Iginla and Giordano and a late 1st?

It isn't (just) about money. It is about value.

Kane's value is significantly higher than Gaborik, though the latter remains a better player, he's a decade older.

Bogosian is as good as MDZ now--I don't really see how anyone who has watched both can argue otherwise--and he has a significantly higher ceiling.

Wheeler is still a young first-line forward, no a simple throw in. His value is significantly higher than a late 1st.

This is not a very well thought out proposal.
I'm just echoing this post with my correction in bold. People who think the reason we wouldn't trade Kane for Gaborik is purely based on cap hit are really missing the point. I'd add that in addition to being a decade younger, a strong work ethic and the ability to play when the game gets more physical, i.e. the playoffs, are more important than a few extra goals in the regular season.

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Old
06-01-2012, 11:00 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
Neither of those are accurate statements.

Come talk to me when Kane posts his 2nd 3 goal season. Gaborik had two 30 goal seasons in his first 3 years in the league at the same age.

Gaborik has three 40 goal seasons under his belt.

Gaborik scores points in 9 out of every 10 games he plays. Kane approx. 6 out of 10

Kane in his first three years is a +1, Gaborik, was a +6

Kane is not a better player than Gaborik today and has a long way to go before he gets to Gaboriks level.

THAT SAID the Jets still do not make that trade more for financial reasons than for on ice reasons. A building that seats 15K cannot have one player making more than 10% of the NHL cap, not to mention any internal cap they need to work under. For that team to be sucessful, they cannot have those kinds of players.

Bogosian is no better than Del Zotto is defensively, but because he is a bigger guy and somewhat better skater, he has the reach and speed to recover better than Del Zotto. Where I think that Del Zotto has the edge is on the offensive side of the puck. MDZ is far superior to Bogo on offence right now. They are even defensively, MDZ is better offensively, and Bogo is a more physical player.
If Gaborik and Del Zotto are better, why are they in so many threads right now?

Gaborik is at the end of his peak, is injury prone, and makes a ton of money. Kane is a top line winger and isn't near to his prime years yet. I take Kane 10 times out of 10.

Bogosian is better defensively, and has proven it by playing top minutes, while Del Zotto has the luxury of being a #3. Maybe he could be a top pairing guy, but the bigger more physical defenseman is what I prefer, and the Jets have Entstrom to move the puck already.

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Old
06-01-2012, 11:10 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zuccarello Awesome View Post
Gaborik and Del Zotto

for

Wheeler, Kane, and Bogosian

Discuss.
Rangers fans reputation is dropping by the second. Please stop. No one wants an un healthy Gaborik.

For Wheeler Kane and Bogosian you your looking at like Staal + Stepan +?

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Old
06-01-2012, 11:25 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NvincentYvalentineR View Post
Rangers fans reputation is dropping by the second. Please stop. No one wants an un healthy Gaborik.

For Wheeler Kane and Bogosian you your looking at like Staal + Stepan +?
I don't think the Rangers have two players that Jets fans would move those three for, to be honest.

What are the two most valuable assets the Rangers have? Lundquist and McDonagh?

I can't see the Jets doing that either. Krieder is less valuable than Kane, so that's out.

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Old
06-01-2012, 11:43 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zuccarello Awesome View Post
Gaborik and Del Zotto

for

Wheeler, Kane, and Bogosian

Discuss.
Your proposal is absurd. It would be like Winnipeg proposing this .....


Burmistrov and Enstrom

for

Callahan, Kreider/Stepan and McDonagh


Doesn't seem like such a good idea when it's reversed, does it?

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Old
06-01-2012, 11:55 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
I don't think the Rangers have two players that Jets fans would move those three for, to be honest.

What are the two most valuable assets the Rangers have? Lundquist and McDonagh?

I can't see the Jets doing that either. Krieder is less valuable than Kane, so that's out.
Lundqvist, McDonagh, Girardi (All star this year), Staal (Allstar last year), Callahan who scored 29 goals this year, Stepan who had 51 points in his second season...

No one here said it had to be a 2 for 3 deal. Even in my post I said Staal + Stepan + ? as in what would the third piece need to be?

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Old
06-01-2012, 12:06 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NvincentYvalentineR View Post
Lundqvist, McDonagh, Girardi (All star this year), Staal (Allstar last year), Callahan who scored 29 goals this year, Stepan who had 51 points in his second season...

No one here said it had to be a 2 for 3 deal. Even in my post I said Staal + Stepan + ? as in what would the third piece need to be?
Well, the original proposal was a 3-for-2. You countered with a (different) 3-for-2(+).

I was simply saying that there are no two assets in the Rangers system that would get the Jets to move those three pieces. That doesn't mean the Rangers don't have valuable assets, just that none of those assets is valuable enough to take the two most important pieces out of Winnipeg's system (Bogosian and Kane).

There aren't more than 10 players in the league that Winnipeg would move Bogosian and Kane for. To make a 3-for-2 trade, adding Wheeler, the 2nd piece would have to be significantly more valuable than Wheeler.

The Rangers don't have one of the ten or so players that would return Bogo and Kane, and they don't have a second asset whose value so far transcends Wheeler to make it work.

Do you follow?

Of course you could come up with some 7 or 8 piece deal that might balance out value-wise, but that's so far out of the realm of realistic that it really isn't worth speculating about.

Even at six it gets a bit absurd:

Kane
Bogosian
Wheeler

for

Kreider
McDonagh
Stepan

Kane > Kreider
Bogosian =(<?) McDonagh
Wheeler < Stepan

...but neither side does that.

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Old
06-01-2012, 12:09 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JetNation View Post
The 15K seat argument is not really true , our ticket prices are pretty high and a 15K MTSC brings in a lot more then some 20K buildings in the NHL because of that
don't get me wrong. I'm not knocking the team, arena or situation, but logic would dictate that if you have on average 3-4 thousand less seats, it's going to be difficult spending to the cap.

I like the Jets and like that the NHL was smart enough to go back there.

I just don't think it makes smart business sense to hamestring a franchise with a 7.5 million dollar contract when they are already at a seating disadvantage and therefore a gate disadvantage.

If I'm running the Jets, I try to stay away from those larger contracts.

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Old
06-01-2012, 12:13 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanCallahan24 View Post
More like:

Gaborik + Del Zotto + 2012 1st

for

Kane and Bogosian.

That's fair value, don't know if any team would do that though.

Rangers lose a young PMD who scored 41 points and they lose a 40 goalscorer.

Jets lose a young extremely interesting winger and a young good defenseman. Deals like this don't happen IRL. Maybe 1 of them might get traded in the future, but 2 of them? In the same trade, no way.
If I was Sather I would highly consider this trade. Would probably want a 3rd or 4th round pick with it from the Jets. But overall a great offer

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Old
06-01-2012, 12:14 PM
  #42
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LOL @ everyone saying the Jets don't do this for $$$ reasons.

They don't do this because it is one of the worst trades that I have ever seen on here.

Get your head checked.

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Old
06-01-2012, 12:14 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaddyNYR View Post
If I was Sather I would highly consider this trade. Would probably want a 3rd or 4th round pick with it from the Jets. But overall a great offer
....its an awful trade for the Jets, but you would want a 3rd back too?

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Old
06-01-2012, 12:16 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
Well, the original proposal was a 3-for-2. You countered with a (different) 3-for-2(+).

I was simply saying that there are no two assets in the Rangers system that would get the Jets to move those three pieces. That doesn't mean the Rangers don't have valuable assets, just that none of those assets is valuable enough to take the two most important pieces out of Winnipeg's system (Bogosian and Kane).

There aren't more than 10 players in the league that Winnipeg would move Bogosian and Kane for. To make a 3-for-2 trade, adding Wheeler, the 2nd piece would have to be significantly more valuable than Wheeler.

The Rangers don't have one of the ten or so players that would return Bogo and Kane, and they don't have a second asset whose value so far transcends Wheeler to make it work.

Do you follow?

Of course you could come up with some 7 or 8 piece deal that might balance out value-wise, but that's so far out of the realm of realistic that it really isn't worth speculating about.

Even at six it gets a bit absurd:

Kane
Bogosian
Wheeler

for

Kreider
McDonagh
Stepan

Kane > Kreider
Bogosian =(<?) McDonagh
Wheeler < Stepan

...but neither side does that.
For the most part I do agree with your post. I guess I was just throwing **** at the wall to see what sticks after the OP's absurd post.

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Old
06-01-2012, 12:19 PM
  #45
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Also, thank you to the Rangers fans who also came in to say how absurd the OP's trade is. I just don't get where some people get this crap from.

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Old
06-01-2012, 12:27 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Misty View Post
If Gaborik and Del Zotto are better, why are they in so many threads right now?

Gaborik is at the end of his peak, is injury prone, and makes a ton of money. Kane is a top line winger and isn't near to his prime years yet. I take Kane 10 times out of 10.

Bogosian is better defensively, and has proven it by playing top minutes, while Del Zotto has the luxury of being a #3. Maybe he could be a top pairing guy, but the bigger more physical defenseman is what I prefer, and the Jets have Entstrom to move the puck already.
Because a lot of knee jerk reactions to what these guys did or didn't do in the PO's.

Gaborik needs another scoring threat for him to be effective. When our own fan base realizes that, there will be less venom sent his way.

Del Zotto is the whipping boy for the Rangers not moving on on the PO's when most NYR Fans can't admit that the Rangers lack of scoring and an inability to put the Senators and Capitals away in 5-6 games cost them strength and conditioning against the Devils, a team that out played the Rangers in 4 of the 6 games.

Bogo is not a very good defensive player, but neither is MDZ. And if Bogo is better in that regards, it's not by much and the difference is made up with MDZ's offensive game with is more advanced at this point than Bogo.

Kane is going to be a very very special player and to the extent that you do not want to move a kid 10 years his senior, I can appreciate that 100% (it's why I have no interest in Kreider for Iginla straight up)

The Injury issue with Gaborik before he came to NY was the hamstring/groin/hip. The summer he signed here he had surgery and that has not affected him one bit.

Since signing with the Rangers, Marian has missed less than 9 games a year on average. A total of 26 games missed in 3 years (20 coming last year due to seperated shoulder and concussion.

Over the same 3 years, E. Kane has missed more games due to injury.

That's not to say that Kane is an injury risk, it's more pointing out that Gaborik has been a pretty durable player during the last 3 years.

I agree that if I am the Jets, I do not make the trade as well, but I do not believe that Kane and Bogo are better than Gabby and MDZ.

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Old
06-01-2012, 12:54 PM
  #47
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How would Gaborik (not injury prone, but with a torn labrum) look without Richards? And Del Zotto without Staal?

Face it, your 4th best defenseman and 2nd best forward are not worth Kane and Bogosian.

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Old
06-01-2012, 01:13 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
Bogo is not a very good defensive player
You obviously didn't want him play this year. He pretty much took a step back from the offensive side of the game to focus on his defensive work and became more of a physical stay-at-home defender, which he did extremely well. He gained a lot of confidence as the year went on and I expect his offensive numbers to increase next year.

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Old
06-01-2012, 01:14 PM
  #49
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Kudos to Jeh82, who as a non Jets fan has a very solid understanding of the Jets.

One small point. To the people who are saying that Del Zotto is a much better offensive player over Bogosian, I don't agree. Del Zotto scored 11 more points last year, but also played 12 more games and averaged 4:11 in PP time a game compared to Bogosian's 2:27. The games played and PP time are significant.

At even strength, Del Zotto had 24 points to Bogosian's 23, and Del Zotto played 12 more games.

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Old
06-01-2012, 01:45 PM
  #50
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No thank you from the Jets
we are getting robbed

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