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Holzer over Schenn

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06-01-2012, 01:43 PM
  #101
InterceptSchenn
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I do not think Holzer can replace Luke, but that does not mean I don't want Schenn gone. Getting rid of Luke and his 4yr/3.6 cap hit will be great for us.

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06-01-2012, 02:11 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by InterceptSchenn View Post
I do not think Holzer can replace Luke, but that does not mean I don't want Schenn gone. Getting rid of Luke and his 4yr/3.6 cap hit will be great for us.
No it wouldn't be unless we're getting someone really good in return.

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06-01-2012, 02:18 PM
  #103
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Why not, if they're both with us, wait to see what they both bring in the fall during training camp? I'll reserve my judgements until then. Saying that, I would see the logic in moving Schenn with Holzer in the ranks.

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06-01-2012, 02:40 PM
  #104
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Why not, if they're both with us, wait to see what they both bring in the fall during training camp? I'll reserve my judgements until then. Saying that, I would see the logic in moving Schenn with Holzer in the ranks.
Well the best case scenario is Holzer and Schenn both having a great camp, and start the season off successfully in the top 6 next season. But can we really risk Schenn not having a good start? What are fans go-to excuse if Schenn has a bad game? "Well he's only 18,19,20,21,22, etc...". At a certain point hes going to be too old to hold any "potential" value, and likely get little to no return in a trade with him. One more season like last, and nobody will even want him because to be quite frank, he was terrible.

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06-01-2012, 02:48 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by G51 K81 View Post
Well the best case scenario is Holzer and Schenn both having a great camp, and start the season off successfully in the top 6 next season. But can we really risk Schenn not having a good start? What are fans go-to excuse if Schenn has a bad game? "Well he's only 18,19,20,21,22, etc...". At a certain point hes going to be too old to hold any "potential" value, and likely get little to no return in a trade with him. One more season like last, and nobody will even want him because to be quite frank, he was terrible.
Or Schenn (under Carlyle) has a season like the one he had in 2010/2011 and he'll be deemed untouchable by our fan base again.

Flip, flop.

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06-01-2012, 02:51 PM
  #106
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I really don't understand why people don't make the easy connection with Schenn's poor season. I think it was plainly clear. he went all summer with the uncertainty of his contract and then signed a big deal the day before training camp started. he looked like a guy who tried to do to much to justify his new contract. this type of thing has gotten then best of alot of players in the NHL. the year prior to last he was very good, and I expect him to rebound back to that level if not a little better now that he has a year under his belt on this new contract and when you add in were probably gonna be playing a style of hockey more suited to Schenn's game.

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06-01-2012, 02:52 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by thebluemachine View Post
Or Schenn (under Carlyle) has a season like the one he had in 2010/2011 and he'll be deemed untouchable by our fan base again.

Flip, flop.
Schenn's value = volatile stock. Could spike up or down.

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06-01-2012, 03:03 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by G51 K81 View Post
Schenn's value = volatile stock. Could spike up or down.
If the best player we can get right now for Schenner is JVR I'm definitely for holding on to him and hoping he spikes again. It can't get a whole lot lower so...

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06-01-2012, 03:04 PM
  #109
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If the best player we can get right now for Schenner is JVR I'm definitely for holding on to him and hoping he spikes again. It can't get a whole lot lower so...
You don't think both teams don't realize this?

Same could likely be said about JVR.

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06-01-2012, 03:20 PM
  #110
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Why is this? Gunnarsson is a steadier defenseman and Schenn is the weakest link as of this season.
Schenn wasn't the weakest link this season. He did have an off year though.

The only reason I suggested Holzer replacing Gunnar is because I think he plays a grittier version of the same game. My support of replacing Gunnar is completely reliant on what would be coming back, and what he would be packaged for.

By no means am I downplaying Gunnar by saying Holzer can replace him.

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06-01-2012, 04:39 PM
  #111
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Schenn was compared to Adam Foote, right? Anyone know how Adam Foote looked at 22? Not the "Adam Foote" you came to know.

Giving up on a defensive D-man at 22 who's led all D-Men in hits the last 2 years is laughable.

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06-01-2012, 05:34 PM
  #112
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Adam Foote was solid at 22. His first full season he was a +6 with 168 PIM.

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06-01-2012, 05:37 PM
  #113
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Luke Schenn not even close that kind of intensity.

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06-01-2012, 05:44 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
Schenn was compared to Adam Foote, right? Anyone know how Adam Foote looked at 22? Not the "Adam Foote" you came to know.

Giving up on a defensive D-man at 22 who's led all D-Men in hits the last 2 years is laughable.
That's a fairly poor argument. For one thing, comparisons made in juniors are meaningless. Gilbert Brule was compared to Mark Messier, wasn't he?

Also, Foote wasn't a prospect that came with top five pick fanfare, and he did have to ply his trade the more traditional route as opposed to being handed a job in the NHL, (which is probably what Schenn should have done in the first place).

Not to mention the fact that Foote was a pretty snarly competitor, while Schenn often looks overwhelmed out there on any given shift, and his hits are completely ineffective in even stopping a puck carrier from going to the net.

What I can tell you is that with four years of NHL experience, Foote was already on the cusp of winning a Stanley Cup, and that was at 24-25. Schenn on the other hand, is playing worse than he did as a rookie.

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06-01-2012, 06:28 PM
  #115
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That's a fairly poor argument. For one thing, comparisons made in juniors are meaningless. Gilbert Brule was compared to Mark Messier, wasn't he?

Also, Foote wasn't a prospect that came with top five pick fanfare, and he did have to ply his trade the more traditional route as opposed to being handed a job in the NHL, (which is probably what Schenn should have done in the first place).

Not to mention the fact that Foote was a pretty snarly competitor, while Schenn often looks overwhelmed out there on any given shift, and his hits are completely ineffective in even stopping a puck carrier from going to the net.

What I can tell you is that with four years of NHL experience, Foote was already on the cusp of winning a Stanley Cup, and that was at 24-25. Schenn on the other hand, is playing worse than he did as a rookie.
Why isn't it possible for Schenn to up his game and still be that top hard hitting dman?

Adam Foote was an exceptional dman so lets drop that comparison for now.

However people are unrealistic with Schenn sometimes. The same people screaming about him were probably the same people complaining about Bogosian last year.

Big bodied dmen and power forwards generally take a little longer to develop. Notable very valuable big bodied hard hitting dmen with offensive upside in Coburn (8th overall) was only playing his rookie season at 22, Bieksa was just starting off in the AHL or all-star Girardi was still in the AHL.

Gardiner drafted in the same draft as Schenn only just played his rookie season this past year. If he takes a step back next season will everybody also throw him under the bus as well?

Players have ups and downs in their careers. Giving up on Schenn as a 22 year old dman who has had to learn at the NHL level instead of looking like a rock star in junior and the AHL is a huge mistake.

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06-01-2012, 07:35 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
That's a fairly poor argument. For one thing, comparisons made in juniors are meaningless. Gilbert Brule was compared to Mark Messier, wasn't he?

Also, Foote wasn't a prospect that came with top five pick fanfare, and he did have to ply his trade the more traditional route as opposed to being handed a job in the NHL, (which is probably what Schenn should have done in the first place).

Not to mention the fact that Foote was a pretty snarly competitor, while Schenn often looks overwhelmed out there on any given shift, and his hits are completely ineffective in even stopping a puck carrier from going to the net.

What I can tell you is that with four years of NHL experience, Foote was already on the cusp of winning a Stanley Cup, and that was at 24-25. Schenn on the other hand, is playing worse than he did as a rookie.
When you talk about Foote, you're still talking about an in-his-prime Foote and comparing him to Schenn now.

And who cares about cups? Foote was on a stacked team.

And Schenn looked very good last year at age 21.

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06-01-2012, 07:41 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by ForSpareParts View Post
Adam Foote was solid at 22. His first full season he was a +6 with 168 PIM.
If only Schenn had Sakic, Forsberg, and Sundin to help pad his stats. You don't know **** about how good Foote was at 22.

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06-01-2012, 08:16 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Ricky Bobby View Post
Why isn't it possible for Schenn to up his game and still be that top hard hitting dman?

Adam Foote was an exceptional dman so lets drop that comparison for now.

However people are unrealistic with Schenn sometimes. The same people screaming about him were probably the same people complaining about Bogosian last year.

Big bodied dmen and power forwards generally take a little longer to develop. Notable very valuable big bodied hard hitting dmen with offensive upside in Coburn (8th overall) was only playing his rookie season at 22, Bieksa was just starting off in the AHL or all-star Girardi was still in the AHL.

Gardiner drafted in the same draft as Schenn only just played his rookie season this past year. If he takes a step back next season will everybody also throw him under the bus as well?

Players have ups and downs in their careers. Giving up on Schenn as a 22 year old dman who has had to learn at the NHL level instead of looking like a rock star in junior and the AHL is a huge mistake.
Do Leaf fans ever actually get around to analyzing the skillset a player possesses when they talk about so much hope in regards to Schenn?

-Can he skate? Not really. Very poor mobility as a defenseman, was horrible this year and looked comically slow on the big ice at the WCs.

-Is he big? Yes.

-Is he strong? Yes.

-Can he handle the puck? He has rudimentary, passable skills with the puck, but by no means does he look natural or comfortable handling/lugging the puck on most nights.

-Defensive Awareness: Seems to always be in that sweet spot between the goalie and the shooter, where he can neither help the goalie or do much to neutralize the opposing player. Does a lot of poke checking (ineffective) and the lame Flamingo. Good along the boards, can make a big hit there, but also isn't that effective in neutralizing the opposition's offensive cycle. Gets caught flat-footed.

-Offensive abilities:

Shooting: Doesn't have a slapshot he can get off before the opposition strips him of the puck at the blueline, but when he does get it off, it seems to be good.

Passing: good outlet stretch pass, but not much else.

-Mental Awareness: severely mercurial confidence issues. Lacks composure under pressure. Doesn't have a "short memory" when it comes to mistakes. Slow, hesitant decision maker, which exacerbates his slow physical play.

In summary, not that excited about his potential.

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06-01-2012, 09:24 PM
  #119
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I'm saying I don't believe you remember Adam Foote from 20 years ago. I'm skeptical that you remember a 22 year old d-man who wasn't a key piece of a young, talented team when he was not easy to see since there were no streams, NHL Centre Ice and far fewer games were available on regular television.
fair enough, but how extreme of a fan am i supposed to be of Foote?
when they came on in their first year as the Avs he was pretty special, but no i wasn't collecting his rookie card at the time.

----------------

schenn is an inconsistent NHLer and no Foote

period

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06-01-2012, 09:29 PM
  #120
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06-04-2012, 10:48 AM
  #121
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I've been saying this since his first season.

If Schenn becomes a player like Luke Richardson, I'd be extremely happy. Good dependable 5-6 guy.

LOL @ all those Scott Stevens comparison!

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06-04-2012, 11:40 AM
  #122
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Holzer looks like he's going to be a decent NHLer, but at the moment, Schenn is WAY better.

If Schenn can learn to skate he'll be pretty solid.

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06-04-2012, 11:55 AM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Wendelstache View Post
I've been saying this since his first season.

If Schenn becomes a player like Luke Richardson, I'd be extremely happy. Good dependable 5-6 guy.

LOL @ all those Scott Stevens comparison!
a top 5 pick and your satisfied if he becomes a 5-6 guy. This just tells me to trade him before he becomes that 5-6 guy.

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06-04-2012, 11:56 AM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
Do Leaf fans ever actually get around to analyzing the skillset a player possesses when they talk about so much hope in regards to Schenn?

-Can he skate? Not really. Very poor mobility as a defenseman, was horrible this year and looked comically slow on the big ice at the WCs.

-Is he big? Yes.

-Is he strong? Yes.

-Can he handle the puck? He has rudimentary, passable skills with the puck, but by no means does he look natural or comfortable handling/lugging the puck on most nights.

-Defensive Awareness: Seems to always be in that sweet spot between the goalie and the shooter, where he can neither help the goalie or do much to neutralize the opposing player. Does a lot of poke checking (ineffective) and the lame Flamingo. Good along the boards, can make a big hit there, but also isn't that effective in neutralizing the opposition's offensive cycle. Gets caught flat-footed.

-Offensive abilities:

Shooting: Doesn't have a slapshot he can get off before the opposition strips him of the puck at the blueline, but when he does get it off, it seems to be good.

Passing: good outlet stretch pass, but not much else.

-Mental Awareness: severely mercurial confidence issues. Lacks composure under pressure. Doesn't have a "short memory" when it comes to mistakes. Slow, hesitant decision maker, which exacerbates his slow physical play.

In summary, not that excited about his potential.
A similar type of critique of Beauchemin probably could have been written about his time in Toronto. He goes to a team with an average goalie and forwards who actually know how to cycle as well as support the D and suddenly his career takes an upswing.

Komisarek also comes to Toronto and his career takes a complete nosedive because he no longer has a good goaltender behind him and a defensively responsible forward group as well as good coaching.

Last year Ottawa fans were roasting Phillips and Kuba. This season they actually got goaltending and had elite players good/healthy seasons by the guys at the top of the lineup (Speeza, Alffy, Michalek, Karlsson) which allowed their secondary guys to look good again.

Since the lockout every year Toronto has been the place where defencemens career come to die despite us actually having a good D year after year. Fix the forwards and the goaltending and suddenly our entire D especially D whose weakest areas are skating the puck out of their own end (Schenn/Komi) will look better because they can play with confidence and know that the forward will be in the right spot or not just get easily knocked off the puck (our wingers are probably the worst group at getting bumped off the puck in our own zone within 10-15 feet of the blueline).

Schenn once again is only 22. Young players or just careers in general aren't a straight upward trend like some people like to think.

Schenn will be just fine and develop into a very good second pairing dman and potentially even a # 2 but he will never look good until the Leafs get better goaltending and another forward who is worthy of playing 18 to 20 minutes a night (Connolly, Bozak and CMac certainly aren't that).


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06-04-2012, 12:00 PM
  #125
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a top 5 pick and your satisfied if he becomes a 5-6 guy. This just tells me to trade him before he becomes that 5-6 guy.
He already is a 5-6 guy, he's got the potential to be much more than that. I'm still hopeful.

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