HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > New Jersey Devils
Notices

Don Cherry on Joe Thornton, the Devils, Pat Burns, and the trap

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
11-18-2003, 08:31 PM
  #26
Blackjack
Registered User
 
Blackjack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: keyjhboardd +bro]ke
Posts: 6,034
vCash: 500
One more thing: I don't think that many non Devils fans will ever percieve the team that way. They see a 'system' that allows a group of players to overachieve.

I see 12 forwards, ages 22 to 42, 6 defensemen, ages 21 to 40, and a 30 year old goalie playing their guts out, leaving it all on the ice, and giving 110% on every play and every shift. That's why I love defensive hockey, it brings the team together. Scoring is largely an individual accomplishment, usually there is a playmaker involved also, and a secondary assists is also handed out (deserved or not), but that's it. When Marty Brodeur gets a shutout, every player in the Devils locker room feels proud of his efforts.

Blackjack is offline  
Old
11-18-2003, 08:36 PM
  #27
sluggo*
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,430
vCash: 500
Quote:
Most of the time when you see people post stuff like this you find out in subsequent posts that they aren't even watching the Devils play games
Thats not me, I do watch Devils games, and unless they are down a goal they just don'tplay that exciting of a game. You said you don't think a lot of the people who say the Devils play a boring style of hockey watch a lot of Devils games, at the same time I think a lot of Devils fans just look at the winning part of the game. I see a lot of Devils fans (even in this thread) say something along the lines "winning is what its all about, and winning isn't boring", which is how they watch a game where one team only gets 14 shots on net and don't find it boring, their team won. Unfortunatly if your not a die-hard fan of one of those teams that wins using a defensive system (ie - boring hockey) theres no reason to watch. The games aren't all that exciting and the winning isn't as important to you because your not a die-hard fan. If Hockey is going to survive in NA it needs to become more exciting, which means more offense.

And to say that offense doesn't make hockey exciting - why are high light reels (ie - the excting parts) made up mostly of goals and great scoring chances? Why is it great offensive teams are never called boring? Why is it that interest in Hockey has done down at the same time systems like the trap became popular? You might not find defensive hockey boring, but the vast majority of people do which is why a lot of them don't watch hockey.

Quote:
Scoring is largely an individual accomplishment, usually there is a playmaker involved also, and a secondary assists is also handed out (deserved or not), but that's it
No way. A lot of goals involve a lot more then just the credited players. I'll give you a recent example. The Leafs were playing the King, Leafs were in the Kings zone. Riechel had the puck and was on the right circle, Nolan was stand on the left side hash-marks, Kaberle was on the blue line. Reichel had no shot and no good passing lane, expect back to the blue line. So Kaberle rushes into the slot and calls for the pass. He draws 2 of the defenders onto him, opening up both a passing lane for Reichel and shooting lane for Nolan. Reichel makes the pass and Nolan gets the goal. Thats a play that involved not only the credited players (Nolan, Reichel and Tucker) but also Kaberle, if he hadn't rushed in and drawn those defensemen off the play couldn't have happened.

You also have a lot of goals scored because a player or two is standing infront of the net, screening the goalie (they don't always tip those shots in). They don't get assist's when a goal is scored, but a lot of the time if they aren't parked there that shots not going in.

sluggo* is offline  
Old
11-19-2003, 03:45 AM
  #28
BM67
Registered User
 
BM67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In "The System"
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,573
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sluggo
Depends on the game. Shots only count if they are on net, there could be a lot more scoring chances that don't count etc.....
The Devils are near the top of the league in shots on goal and they miss the net a heck of a lot as well, so they must be playing exciting hockey. Right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sluggo
Thats averaging, a lot of Oilers games had more then that, and some had less which brings the average down (but even 33 is ten higher then 20-23, which seems to be average now) and is MUCH more excting then 14. And even if they didn't a shot on a play, they weren't closing down the neutral zone and dumping and chasing. It was open and free flowing.
The Devils average 30 shots a game, so it's only 3-4 more than what they average. The Devils get 30 shots against a trapping team, and the other team only gets 14 against us, and you blame the Devils for being boring? Seems to me the team that only manages 14 shots should get some blame too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sluggo
Its not so much more scoring, but scoring chances. Thats why making the nets bigger or banning the butterfly wouldn't help. Like I said, one of the most exciting games I've ever seen was a 2-1 game, but there were 93 shots on goal.
So you'd be happy to see good goaltending with bad defense, and the good goaltending is optional? If all you want is more goals from sloppy play all we have to do is add some more expansion teams.

BM67 is offline  
Old
11-19-2003, 03:51 AM
  #29
meehan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: new york
Country: United States
Posts: 1,945
vCash: 50
Send a message via ICQ to meehan Send a message via AIM to meehan Send a message via MSN to meehan Send a message via Yahoo to meehan Send a message via Skype™ to meehan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackjack
Mogilny was let go because he didn't score enough in the playoffs and Lou thought that some of our prospects were ready to step in and do the job (they weren't)
So I wonder, who exactly were these "prospects" that would step in and replace one of the elite snipers of this generation? Don't tell me Lou thought Brian Gionta and Christian Berglund were going to be snipers in this league. They are good players, but I can't believe Lou thought they would become goal scorers in the NHL. In fact, do the devils even have a legitimate "sniper" prospect in the system other then Suglobov?

meehan is offline  
Old
11-19-2003, 04:03 AM
  #30
BM67
Registered User
 
BM67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In "The System"
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,573
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sluggo
And to say that offense doesn't make hockey exciting - why are high light reels (ie - the excting parts) made up mostly of goals and great scoring chances? Why is it great offensive teams are never called boring? Why is it that interest in Hockey has done down at the same time systems like the trap became popular? You might not find defensive hockey boring, but the vast majority of people do which is why a lot of them don't watch hockey.
Why is Don Cherry still selling Rock Em Socke Em after 20+ years showing hits and fights?

Why do highlite reels show slam dunks and ally-oops when you see a dozen of each in every basketball game?

Why are attendance and ratings down for basketball at the same time as hockey is dropping?

Why is it that no team had won a Stanley Cup in a year that they gave up 300+ goals against before the Oilers won their first in 84, but now it's considered the way hockey should be?

Why is it that the Red Wings can play a defensive system but not be called boring?

BM67 is offline  
Old
11-19-2003, 04:27 AM
  #31
brooklyndev
Guest
 
Country:
Posts: n/a
vCash:
Haven't watched recently...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sluggo
"When the puck is dropped, they play agressive hockey, but they are patient. They are careful not to make mistakes, but they work hard on offense"

This is the boring hockey. They'll only send one forechecker and seem more worried about giving up a goal then getting one. When they get behind, thats when they become an exciting team to watch. When you watch the "exciting teams" they ALWAYS play like the Devils do when the game starts or they are up by a goal or two.

LIke I said, I don't know why they were all moved (you just said something about the locker room being bad) which I can understand, but at the same time they didn't bring compairable offensive talent back in to replace those players (kinda like the Leafs with their defense).
Their are times early in the game, that the devils send 2 and sometimes 3 forecheckers, although, 3rd man will remain high. Watch closely next time. You'll be surprised.

 
Old
11-19-2003, 03:22 PM
  #32
Blackjack
Registered User
 
Blackjack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: keyjhboardd +bro]ke
Posts: 6,034
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sluggo
No way. A lot of goals involve a lot more then just the credited players. I'll give you a recent example. The Leafs were playing the King, Leafs were in the Kings zone. Riechel had the puck and was on the right circle, Nolan was stand on the left side hash-marks, Kaberle was on the blue line. Reichel had no shot and no good passing lane, expect back to the blue line. So Kaberle rushes into the slot and calls for the pass. He draws 2 of the defenders onto him, opening up both a passing lane for Reichel and shooting lane for Nolan. Reichel makes the pass and Nolan gets the goal. Thats a play that involved not only the credited players (Nolan, Reichel and Tucker) but also Kaberle, if he hadn't rushed in and drawn those defensemen off the play couldn't have happened.

You also have a lot of goals scored because a player or two is standing infront of the net, screening the goalie (they don't always tip those shots in). They don't get assist's when a goal is scored, but a lot of the time if they aren't parked there that shots not going in.
I understand what you are saying, and those types of goals are great, but the majority of goals scored in the league involve no more than 2 or 3 players, even if you include one screening the goalie. A shutout is an accomplishment of every dressed skater and the goalie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meehan
So I wonder, who exactly were these "prospects" that would step in and replace one of the elite snipers of this generation? Don't tell me Lou thought Brian Gionta and Christian Berglund were going to be snipers in this league. They are good players, but I can't believe Lou thought they would become goal scorers in the NHL. In fact, do the devils even have a legitimate "sniper" prospect in the system other then Suglobov?
Well, at the time, Lou had just drafted Andreas Salmonsson (I think, or he was about to) Salomonsson turned out to be a huge bust, but when he first came over, everybody thought he was a steal. Lou also had Pierre Daganeis, who was a great shooter, but just a terrible skater. He also didn't pan out. Lou believed that between Gionta, Berglund, Salomonsson, and Daganeis, he would be able to put two of them next to Gomez (who had just won the Calder trophy and scored 133 points in his first two seasons) and the scoring would be okay. Remember, this was the year after The A Line scored 100 goals, Mogilny and Gomez were on the second line.

Blackjack is offline  
Old
11-19-2003, 04:05 PM
  #33
NJ_Devil_Boy
Registered User
 
NJ_Devil_Boy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Toronto, CANADA
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,840
vCash: 500
The Devils are sure playing "BORING hockey" vs. the Sabres tonight...

NJ_Devil_Boy is offline  
Old
11-19-2003, 06:02 PM
  #34
sluggo*
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,430
vCash: 500
Quote:
I understand what you are saying, and those types of goals are great, but the majority of goals scored in the league involve no more than 2 or 3 players, even if you include one screening the goalie. A shutout is an accomplishment of every dressed skater and the goalie
But at the same time not every player is involved in every defensive play. Your compairing a whole game to one play. If a team scoring 3-5 goals a game more then 2-3 players are going to be involved. If 3-4 players are involved in each goal (on average) thats up but too 20 players involved in the goals, a whole team effort.

And one game (I only got to see the highlights of the Devils game - Maddens break away was really nice) doesn't make a pattern, its one game.

sluggo* is offline  
Old
11-19-2003, 06:41 PM
  #35
Blackjack
Registered User
 
Blackjack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: keyjhboardd +bro]ke
Posts: 6,034
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sluggo
But at the same time not every player is involved in every defensive play. Your compairing a whole game to one play. If a team scoring 3-5 goals a game more then 2-3 players are going to be involved. If 3-4 players are involved in each goal (on average) thats up but too 20 players involved in the goals, a whole team effort.

And one game (I only got to see the highlights of the Devils game - Maddens break away was really nice) doesn't make a pattern, its one game.
High octane teams get the majority of their goals from the same guys. It's the more balanced teams like the Devils and Sens that get the 3rd and 4th lines involved in the scoring. Look at Vancouver: it's all about Naslund-Morrison-Bertuzzi. Last year Colorado was carried by the AMP line. Boston had the Knuble-Thornton-Murray line, and for the Blues it's always the usual suspects: Weight, Demitra, Tkachuk, Pronger.

For example, The St. Louis Blues scored 4 goals tonight, and individual skaters were credited with 11 points.

Pronger - 1 goal, 1 assist
Weight - 4 assists
Demitra - 1 assist

That's 7 out of 11 points going to 3 guys.

Blackjack is offline  
Old
11-19-2003, 07:06 PM
  #36
sluggo*
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,430
vCash: 500
I didn't see the St. Louis game so I don't know, but I'm other players were involved, either making out-let passes that didn't turn into assists, crashing the net, screening the goalie etc.... Holmstrom on the wings is involved in a lot more goals then he gets credit for stat wise (40 pts a year is his highest). He parks himself infront of the net, screens the goalie which is an important part in a lot of goals the Wings get.

I'm not saying scoring is always a completely whole team thing, its clearly not, but its also not something that 1-2-3 players on every team always does either.

sluggo* is offline  
Old
11-19-2003, 09:39 PM
  #37
holy roman empire
Registered User
 
holy roman empire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Virginia, USA
Country: United States
Posts: 204
vCash: 500
even the year the Devils lead the league in scoring, they were still called boring, what gets boring is this whining, I guarantee any fan out there whether they admit it or not would trade being an exciting also-ran for a few Stanley Cups

holy roman empire is offline  
Old
11-20-2003, 02:16 AM
  #38
Ironchef Chris Wok*
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Red Sox Nation
Country: Taiwan
Posts: 12,538
vCash: 500
Send a message via ICQ to Ironchef Chris Wok*
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJ_Devil_Boy
Luckly, they didn't use this "hockey theory" vs. NYR, FLA, PHI, NYI. It's hard to believe why the Devils (especially this year) is trying to hold the lead especially when they've given up many leads so far this year.

No dis-respect, but even a small comparison between the Canucks and NJ is horrible. Yeah, I wish NJ had *stars* like Naslund and Bertuzzi....
I wish Vancouver actually had defensive zone coverage, but hey, that's just me.

Ironchef Chris Wok* is offline  
Old
11-20-2003, 06:34 PM
  #39
NJ_Devil_Boy
Registered User
 
NJ_Devil_Boy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Toronto, CANADA
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,840
vCash: 500
Did you see that? The Oilers (leading 3-1 going into the 3rd) played "BORING hockey" tonight. Even they held back in the 3rd trying to protect the lead (and almost blew it).


NJ_Devil_Boy is offline  
Old
11-25-2003, 09:03 PM
  #40
NJ_Devil_Boy
Registered User
 
NJ_Devil_Boy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Toronto, CANADA
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,840
vCash: 500
Another "BORING" hockey game vs. the LA Kings tonight. The Devils sure "held on" with only 4 goals.


NJ_Devil_Boy is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:39 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.