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Old
06-02-2012, 12:55 AM
  #51
Torts
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something ive always though of was Demelo to London for AA and a pick (later round)

DeMelo is a london native and adds a dman to the squad next year.

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06-02-2012, 06:37 AM
  #52
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we each, you me and everyone else see things our own ways. You can't see what others see because you only see what you see and vice versa.

As for Clarke and his value, how much value does he bring back in a deal for himself? A second round pick? A third round pick? Nothing lower but not likely anything more than a second.

As for the Wilson deal

OK so OS got Wilson, a second, a third and a fourth, was there multiples of any of those in there?

Getting the picks back in another deal makes it a wash? Would that be the Blacker deal? If so then to make it a wash we ended up sending Blacker, Wilson and a fourth for Loktionov and a pick(?).

Was Loktionov worth Blacker, Wilson plus? Maybe but that is hindsight. Was the pick alone worth it? By your reasoning probably not.

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06-02-2012, 07:26 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by GangGreen View Post
I'd be happy too. But do you really see either Mark or Dale using an enforcer type?
I think if they're to trade AA, they really need a top end d-man to replace Tinordi. (And possibly Harrington, and Maataa) IF that type of player was available with the #9 pick, I'm all for it.
We all know Mathers can fight...coaching is limiting the progression of the other aspects of his game. He'd thrive in London as a power forward. I'd be willing to wager he'd pot 40 points in a Knights uniform. Mathers has Leigh Salters type offensive potential. He's more than just an enforcer..he's just not getting the right guidance where he is.

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06-02-2012, 07:33 AM
  #54
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Depending on Maatta London needs a threat from the back end when it comes to giving this powerplay and jump start. 3 year of misery back there and it seems like we allowed more shorties in that time frame the we've actually scored PP goals.

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06-02-2012, 09:16 AM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cfaub View Post
As for the Wilson deal

OK so OS got Wilson, a second, a third and a fourth, was there multiples of any of those in there?

Getting the picks back in another deal makes it a wash? Would that be the Blacker deal? If so then to make it a wash we ended up sending Blacker, Wilson and a fourth for Loktionov and a pick(?).

Was Loktionov worth Blacker, Wilson plus? Maybe but that is hindsight. Was the pick alone worth it? By your reasoning probably not.
??? The deal was -

Windsor trades
Garrett Wilson
2009 Second Round Pick
2010 Third Round Pick
2010 4th Round Pick

Owen Sound Attack trades
#7 overall Import Pick
2010 Second Round Pick
2009 Third Round Pick

Given 2nds and 3rds were going both ways (just opposite years) to boil it down for arguments sake have them cancel out each other and it becomes Wilson/4th rounder for Loktionov.

http://www.thepeterboroughexaminer.c...aspx?e=1083538

So Clarke and a 4th for the 9th overall and we keep the #15?

I still only do that if we're a lock to get the guy we want and he's a lock to come over and be here two seasons. Otherwise I'm more than happy to keep Clarke as the bird in the hand.

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06-02-2012, 10:53 AM
  #56
cfaub
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ottomatic View Post
??? The deal was -

Windsor trades
Garrett Wilson
2009 Second Round Pick
2010 Third Round Pick
2010 4th Round Pick

Owen Sound Attack trades
#7 overall Import Pick
2010 Second Round Pick
2009 Third Round Pick

Given 2nds and 3rds were going both ways (just opposite years) to boil it down for arguments sake have them cancel out each other and it becomes Wilson/4th rounder for Loktionov.

http://www.thepeterboroughexaminer.c...aspx?e=1083538

So Clarke and a 4th for the 9th overall and we keep the #15?

I still only do that if we're a lock to get the guy we want and he's a lock to come over and be here two seasons. Otherwise I'm more than happy to keep Clarke as the bird in the hand.
Thanks for clearing that up. The way jug said it sounded like it was another deal altogether. Makes more sense and definitely shows what I threw out there as being an overpayment.

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Old
06-02-2012, 11:20 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cfaub View Post
we each, you me and everyone else see things our own ways. You can't see what others see because you only see what you see and vice versa.

As for Clarke and his value, how much value does he bring back in a deal for himself? A second round pick? A third round pick? Nothing lower but not likely anything more than a second.

As for the Wilson deal

OK so OS got Wilson, a second, a third and a fourth, was there multiples of any of those in there?

Getting the picks back in another deal makes it a wash? Would that be the Blacker deal? If so then to make it a wash we ended up sending Blacker, Wilson and a fourth for Loktionov and a pick(?).

Was Loktionov worth Blacker, Wilson plus? Maybe but that is hindsight. Was the pick alone worth it? By your reasoning probably not.
No, I'll spell it out slowly for you cfaub.

To Windsor
7 overall import
3rd round pick
2nd round pick

To Owen Sound
Garrett Wilson
4th round pick
2nd round pick
3rd round pick

I'm saying the 2nd and 3rd picks are basically a wash in this deal. Obviously the picks were in different spots of those rounds, and in different years, but for the sake of our discussion we'll pretend that a 2nd in 2009 and a 2nd in 2010 have the same value making the exchange of 2nds and 3rds a saw off. At the end of the day, it was Wilson (a 3rd round OHL pick with 7 games of experience at the time) and a 4th for the 7 overall import pick. Any way you slice it, that's nowhere close to the same price you are suggesting with Clarke and Marchese. 2 roster players who were important parts of last years team are not the same as a 4th round pick and a kid in junior B.

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06-02-2012, 12:55 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by jughead42 View Post
I'm sure it will cost a bit for a higher import if windsor doesn't include their own pick in the deal, but if windsor is simply looking to move up it isn't going to be a king's ransom like sending two young pieces of their developing core. When we traded for the Loktionov import pick it was basically Garrett Wilson and a 4th round pick for the 7 overall import selection. Wilson was at the time a 3rd round pick with 7 games of OHL experience and a decent showing in junior B. He's windsor's current equivalent of a guy like Studnika or Hunter Smith, not two guys who have been part of the developing core of this team like Clarke AND Marchese. If Windsor moves up and they swap their own import to do it, I doubt it costs more than some picks to get the job done. If they just add the Pete's pick without including their own selection, they'd be offering up a '95 body and some picks, not Clarke and Marchese. Shake your head dude.
I think Wilson at 16 even with limited OHL experience was better than Clarke at 17. Wilson just was not pretty good in Jr B he was playoff mvp and as a 16 year old that's very impressive. He was much better than Studnicka and Smith. The Spits got the most out of Clarke in his first 15 games they hardly got anything from him the last 45 games. I wouldn't move Clarke and Marchese but remember if you want to move up it may cost a lot especially if London is dangling a guy like Athanasiou.

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Old
06-02-2012, 01:12 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by jughead42 View Post
No, I'll spell it out slowly for you cfaub.

To Windsor
7 overall import
3rd round pick
2nd round pick

To Owen Sound
Garrett Wilson
4th round pick
2nd round pick
3rd round pick

I'm saying the 2nd and 3rd picks are basically a wash in this deal. Obviously the picks were in different spots of those rounds, and in different years, but for the sake of our discussion we'll pretend that a 2nd in 2009 and a 2nd in 2010 have the same value making the exchange of 2nds and 3rds a saw off. At the end of the day, it was Wilson (a 3rd round OHL pick with 7 games of experience at the time) and a 4th for the 7 overall import pick. Any way you slice it, that's nowhere close to the same price you are suggesting with Clarke and Marchese. 2 roster players who were important parts of last years team are not the same as a 4th round pick and a kid in junior B.
Jug

I guess you missed the earleir post, Ottomatic already cleared up the picks/deals, no problem.

Like Rayzor was saying, still feel Wilson was better, carried more value when he was dealt then Clarke.

Admitted, from the start if you read it all that the two were an overpayment.

Clarke, while he played regularly I would disagree that he was a big part, main part, integral part or irreplaceable part to this team. A player who made a contribution? yes but not one who could not be replaced.

Could he bring more next season? maybe or he could jutst show some steady, expected improvement but nothing of significance that makes him irreplaceable.

Marchese, came in did decent offensively, showed almost no two way game and like Clarke, could be replaceable unless he shows some solid improvement.

Outside of being a 94 and 95 they are two decent players, not standouts on a team that struggled. Can they bring more this season and next? If they aren't moved, not saying they will be then I would hope so.

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06-02-2012, 03:28 PM
  #60
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These threads always get dominated by Spitfire or Knights fans debating something lol.....

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06-02-2012, 03:38 PM
  #61
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These threads always get dominated by Spitfire or Knights fans debating something lol.....
Get some Petes fans with some opinions over here and build a community of your own. In all fairness we're debating the cost of the Petes import pick, so feel free to chime in any time with your thoughts.

After Hunter fisted the Petes in the Watson deal, would the Petes be overly anxious to help them out again with the import pick? I'd think if London were in the mix that the Petes would be looking to make them pay a bit of a premium to make up for that a bit.

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06-02-2012, 03:48 PM
  #62
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Watson would only go to London or Plymouth and Whalers must have offered less than London (illustration of why Plymouth is always good, but never great). Pete's took what they could get. Knights kept Kadri rather than settling for what they believed to be below fair-market value offers, and Rychel did the same when keeping Ellis and Kassian. Who knows which school of thought is right.

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06-02-2012, 03:56 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Ottomatic View Post
Watson would only go to London or Plymouth and Whalers must have offered less than London (illustration of why Plymouth is always good, but never great). Pete's took what they could get.
he was also willing to go to kitchener

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06-02-2012, 03:59 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Torts View Post
something ive always though of was Demelo to London for AA and a pick (later round)

DeMelo is a london native and adds a dman to the squad next year.
Yes please!

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06-02-2012, 04:38 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jughead42 View Post
Get some Petes fans with some opinions over here and build a community of your own. In all fairness we're debating the cost of the Petes import pick, so feel free to chime in any time with your thoughts.

After Hunter fisted the Petes in the Watson deal, would the Petes be overly anxious to help them out again with the import pick? I'd think if London were in the mix that the Petes would be looking to make them pay a bit of a premium to make up for that a bit.
Hunter didn't "fist" the Petes...he gave them all they were gonna get. The deal with Sarnia fell through for whatever reason..and rumour has it the Rags and Whale wouldn't pony up what the Pete's wanted. Watson was sitting at home remember. Hunter basically swooped in and gave them the best they could get last minute. The Pete's fisted themselves.

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06-02-2012, 04:57 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by PhlyerPhanatic View Post
Hunter didn't "fist" the Petes...he gave them all they were gonna get. The deal with Sarnia fell through for whatever reason..and rumour has it the Rags and Whale wouldn't pony up what the Pete's wanted. Watson was sitting at home remember. Hunter basically swooped in and gave them the best they could get last minute. The Pete's fisted themselves.
Agreed, and u can have Hatcher back. He shouldn't make the team next year.. Hearing Puempel might want out too? Who knows... Want him too?

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06-02-2012, 05:06 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by PhlyerPhanatic View Post
Hunter didn't "fist" the Petes...he gave them all they were gonna get. The deal with Sarnia fell through for whatever reason..and rumour has it the Rags and Whale wouldn't pony up what the Pete's wanted. Watson was sitting at home remember. Hunter basically swooped in and gave them the best they could get last minute. The Pete's fisted themselves.
Well, you may be right about the details and probably know more about them than I do, but it doesn't change the fact that the Petes are walking funny all offseason while London has the OHL playoff MVP out of the deal. It was a lopsided trade no matter the circumstances behind it, so it wouldn't be absurd to expect reciprocation in future deals between the teams if the Petes GM has a brain.

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06-02-2012, 05:29 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by jughead42 View Post
Get some Petes fans with some opinions over here and build a community of your own. In all fairness we're debating the cost of the Petes import pick, so feel free to chime in any time with your thoughts.
The one problem I see with both London and Windsor is neither will have a good, available Import pick assuming Windsor holds onto the 15th pick. I could be wrong, but I can't see Reid trading out of the draft, I still think he'll want a pick in the 30 range. I guess it might depend on whether Reid feels getting someone such as Clarke or Athanasiou is better then whoever they would be selecting in the draft.

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06-02-2012, 05:45 PM
  #69
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I'd rather get a proven talent then the euro.. Petes don't have the $ to bring in anybody with serious talent from over n europe.

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06-02-2012, 05:46 PM
  #70
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^I don't believe the Spits will be looking to hang on to their #15, but rather to include it in a package to move up. However if we do include it, I can't see us including a current player off our roster as part of the deal, but rather throw in a pick in next years draft or something. Unless it's part of a bigger trade package.

If the Spits did want two imports out of this draft we would have to move Khokhlachev (if he comes back), Pavelka and the Niagara 2013 Import First Rounder we acquired last season. How bad is Niagara expected to be the upcoming season?

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06-02-2012, 05:56 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Ottomatic View Post
^I don't believe the Spits will be looking to hang on to their #15, but rather to include it in a package to move up. However if we do include it, I can't see us including a current player off our roster as part of the deal, but rather throw in a pick in next years draft or something. Unless it's part of a bigger trade package.

If the Spits did want two imports out of this draft we would have to move Khokhlachev (if he comes back), Pavelka and the Niagara 2013 Import First Rounder we acquired last season. How bad is Niagara expected to be the upcoming season?
Niagara Falls wont nearly be as good this year,that pick should be attractive to deal
If I am Windsor that pick gets dealt to help garner 2 Euro talents this
I am assuming that Koko does not return and Pavelka gets dealt
Windsor"s euro pick this year and the 2 next year would be in play
Time to be aggressive,once final word
comes thru on Koko
I want 2 high end euro players in Windsor's lineup for this year
If that happens both players should be counted on heavily going int 2013/14,also looks attractive to the selection committee re mem cup,projected lineup not 93 born guys like Koko and Pavelka

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06-02-2012, 05:57 PM
  #72
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I'll throw out another name of a guy in Saginaw that might get moved: Terry Trafford.

I've was waiting for him to breakout offensively last year but it just didn't happen. He has plenty of speed and is good on the PK. His lack of production though will leave little room for him with younger players itching for time that are just as productive if not more so than him.

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06-02-2012, 06:09 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by hockeylegend11 View Post
Niagara Falls wont nearly be as good this year,that pick should be attractive to deal
If I am Windsor that pick gets dealt to help garner 2 Euro talents this
I am assuming that Koko does not return and Pavelka gets dealt
Windsor"s euro pick this year and the 2 next year would be in play
Time to be aggressive,once final word
comes thru on Koko
I want 2 high end euro players in Windsor's lineup for this year
If that happens both players should be counted on heavily going int 2013/14,also looks attractive to the selection committee re mem cup,projected lineup not 93 born guys like Koko and Pavelka
Can these two new imports be guaranteed to play here in 2013-2014 season though? That is my fear. If we got a couple 17 yr olds heading into their draft year - they could stick in the NHL the following year. And if we draft recently drafted NHL prospects it means they could play in the AHL as 19 yr olds, meaning they'd only be here next season (or could pull a Koko and head to KHL to get paid).

I think next years import draft is more valuable in that we can be sure the player we draft will be a Spitfire in our (potential) Memorial Cup hosting year.

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06-02-2012, 06:14 PM
  #74
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Can these two new imports be guaranteed to play here in 2013-2014 season though? That is my fear. If we got a couple 17 yr olds heading into their draft year - they could stick in the NHL the following year. And if we draft recently drafted NHL prospects it means they could play in the AHL as 19 yr olds, meaning they'd only be here next season (or could pull a Koko and head to KHL to get paid).

I think next years import draft is more valuable in that we can be sure the player we draft will be a Spitfire in our (potential) Memorial Cup hosting year.
Ottomatic

As u know nothing is guaranteed
ie the Koko situation when drafting Euros,my feeling is the Spits would draft 17 year olds not expecting them to be ready for 2 years,Nhl wise,plus u get them here and if they are drafted from Windsor they cant go to the AHL at 18 or 19
Its a dice game,sometimes u have to take a chance

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06-02-2012, 06:19 PM
  #75
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Can these two new imports be guaranteed to play here in 2013-2014 season though? That is my fear. If we got a couple 17 yr olds heading into their draft year - they could stick in the NHL the following year. And if we draft recently drafted NHL prospects it means they could play in the AHL as 19 yr olds, meaning they'd only be here next season (or could pull a Koko and head to KHL to get paid).

I think next years import draft is more valuable in that we can be sure the player we draft will be a Spitfire in our (potential) Memorial Cup hosting year.
Not sure how valuable a 17 year old would be in a run year when mostly 18,19 and 20 year olds are leading the charge,adjustment,language barrier plays into this too
Exceptional talent of course plays a role too
If I could I still take my chances on 2 Euros providing the windows of opportunity present themselves

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