HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Buffalo Sabres
Notices

Is Leino gone?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
05-28-2012, 04:04 PM
  #76
heartsabres*
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Budapest
Country: Hungary
Posts: 1,790
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheyAreGoodScaryGood View Post
6 mil I believe?
That includes his signing bonus?

heartsabres* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-28-2012, 04:34 PM
  #77
McTank
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,820
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by heartsabres View Post
That includes his signing bonus?
No i dont know what his bonus was, I think his salary was 6/6/4.5/4.5/3/3 or something like that

McTank is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-28-2012, 04:44 PM
  #78
New Sabres Captain
ForFriendshipDikembe
 
New Sabres Captain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Country: United States
Posts: 38,003
vCash: 500
The signing bonuses are included in the salary--altogether he received 6M from Pegula this past season.

After next season, his salary will be less than his cap hit.

New Sabres Captain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-28-2012, 06:14 PM
  #79
LGB24
Registered User
 
LGB24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,591
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveDaSwords View Post
Plus, with his front-loaded deal, he'll become more tradeable as the contract goes on--particularly for internal budget teams for whom the cap number is not as important.
AKA Florida!

LGB24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-28-2012, 09:31 PM
  #80
Der Jaeger
Registered User
 
Der Jaeger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Northern Virginia
Country: United States
Posts: 1,928
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
No I don't think he would consider it. There are far smarter ways to free up cap space if need be. I also don't think Leino's contract warrants the hysteria that seems to have grown over it.
Fair enough. I don't think there's much hysteria over Leino's contract. I don't think anyone believes he played to his contract, and I personally doubt he ever will. And I'd move him on if a major free agent signing put the Sabres over the cap, or the team cleaned house and started over.

That's just me. And, of course, it's not my money.

Der Jaeger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-29-2012, 03:09 AM
  #81
heartsabres*
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Budapest
Country: Hungary
Posts: 1,790
vCash: 500
Giving Leino one more year is understandable. The UFA pool this year is not that good. Next year it is the best since UFA it started.

heartsabres* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-03-2012, 03:16 AM
  #82
Superhero
Registered User
 
Superhero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Amherst(Buffalo), NY
Posts: 301
vCash: 500
Lieno was an awful pickup. He doesn't provide leadership or toughness.
He doesn't play the penalty kill. He isn't good on the power play. He never scored 20 goals in a season yet is almost 30. He was suppose to play center but it appears as if he will stay at wing. 4.5 million against the cap for the next 5 seasons.

Superhero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-03-2012, 05:26 AM
  #83
gallagt01
Registered User
 
gallagt01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sloan
Posts: 8,326
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Superhero View Post
Lieno was an awful pickup. He doesn't provide leadership or toughness.
He doesn't play the penalty kill. He isn't good on the power play. He never scored 20 goals in a season yet is almost 30. He was suppose to play center but it appears as if he will stay at wing. 4.5 million against the cap for the next 5 seasons.
In fairness, it's not as if he's been in the league for eight seasons.

I maintain that Leino is a good player with a bad contract.

gallagt01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-03-2012, 06:00 AM
  #84
heartsabres*
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Budapest
Country: Hungary
Posts: 1,790
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loods View Post
In fairness, it's not as if he's been in the league for eight seasons.

I maintain that Leino is a good player with a bad contract.
Not sure what your point is? In the day of the salary cap it is all about good contracts. So your point is moot.

heartsabres* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-03-2012, 09:22 AM
  #85
ZZamboni
Puttin' on the Foil
 
ZZamboni's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Buffalo, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 10,143
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loods View Post
In fairness, it's not as if he's been in the league for eight seasons.

I maintain that Leino is a good player with a bad contract.
The problem some posters who have the "now, now, now!" mentality is, they forget or choose to ignore that most players who have been in the league for only 2 or 3 years usually don't put up impressive numbers all years. And players who have been in the league for 7 or 8 years have a bigger pool of proof to pull from to make a sound, logical, and factual conclusion as to if they suck or not.

Leino just finished his first year as a highly paid player. Regier and Ruff believed he would be even better than his prior year in Philly. Hence the big long contract. That action by a GM is NOT unusual. In fact it happens multiple times a year. I don't blame Regier for rolling the dice with Leino. He rolled the dice with Briere. But some tend to conveniently forget that fact. The future has not been written, and hindsight is 20/20.

Leino's first season with the Sabres was poor by any standards, regardless of his paycheck, and he has 5 more years to try to get better and better. He has a lot of talent. Odds are (barring injuries) he will get more points every year. Writing off ANY, yes ANY player after 1/6 of his contract has been completed is just plain dumb!

ZZamboni is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-03-2012, 09:31 AM
  #86
heartsabres*
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Budapest
Country: Hungary
Posts: 1,790
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loods View Post
In fairness, it's not as if he's been in the league for eight seasons.

I maintain that Leino is a good player with a bad contract.
Plus maybe if you used factual evidence, he has been in the NHL only 5 years and played enough NHL games to total 3 seasons and in those 5 seasons he has played for 3 teams, that is a big difference to base your premise with and probably not a great example.

Quote:
Leino's first season with the Sabres was poor by any standards, regardless of his paycheck, and he has 5 more years to try to get better and better. He has a lot of talent. Odds are (barring injuries) he will get more points every year. Writing off ANY, yes ANY player after 1/6 of his contract has been completed is just plain dumb!
Before you call people dumb maybe you should do some research
How many seasons did Redden play for the NYR before they demoted him? 2
and Gomez before they dumped him? 2
Brian Campbell? 3(he is here because he has like an 8 year contract atleast he made it 3)
Sean Avery? 1
Thomas Kaberle? 1
Kotalik 1 twice
Commodore 2
Finger 1
Ponikarovsky 1
Samsonov 1
Huet 2
On top of that look at Bryzgalov flyers will try to dump him
Shell I keep going?
What are the chances Leino finishes his contract here?


Last edited by heartsabres*: 06-03-2012 at 09:51 AM.
heartsabres* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-03-2012, 09:46 AM
  #87
slip
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 7,447
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZZamboni View Post
The problem some posters who have the "now, now, now!" mentality is, they forget or choose to ignore that most players who have been in the league for only 2 or 3 years usually don't put up impressive numbers all years. And players who have been in the league for 7 or 8 years have a bigger pool of proof to pull from to make a sound, logical, and factual conclusion as to if they suck or not.

Leino just finished his first year as a highly paid player. Regier and Ruff believed he would be even better than his prior year in Philly. Hence the big long contract. That action by a GM is NOT unusual. In fact it happens multiple times a year. I don't blame Regier for rolling the dice with Leino. He rolled the dice with Briere. But some tend to conveniently forget that fact. The future has not been written, and hindsight is 20/20.

Leino's first season with the Sabres was poor by any standards, regardless of his paycheck, and he has 5 more years to try to get better and better. He has a lot of talent. Odds are (barring injuries) he will get more points every year. Writing off ANY, yes ANY player after 1/6 of his contract has been completed is just plain dumb!
I don't know about "roll the dice." Briere already had 1 30 goal year under his belt and was on a cheaper contract than Gratton.

I like Leino but his contact is rich and his production was poor by any standard. I hope he can turn it around next year.

slip is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
06-03-2012, 09:55 AM
  #88
heartsabres*
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Budapest
Country: Hungary
Posts: 1,790
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZZamboni View Post
The problem some posters who have the "now, now, now!" mentality is, they forget or choose to ignore that most players who have been in the league for only 2 or 3 years usually don't put up impressive numbers all years. And players who have been in the league for 7 or 8 years have a bigger pool of proof to pull from to make a sound, logical, and factual conclusion as to if they suck or not.

Leino just finished his first year as a highly paid player. Regier and Ruff believed he would be even better than his prior year in Philly. Hence the big long contract. That action by a GM is NOT unusual. In fact it happens multiple times a year. I don't blame Regier for rolling the dice with Leino. He rolled the dice with Briere. But some tend to conveniently forget that fact. The future has not been written, and hindsight is 20/20.

Leino's first season with the Sabres was poor by any standards, regardless of his paycheck, and he has 5 more years to try to get better and better. He has a lot of talent. Odds are (barring injuries) he will get more points every year. Writing off ANY, yes ANY player after 1/6 of his contract has been completed is just plain dumb!
comparing Leino and his 30 million to trading for Briere?

heartsabres* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-03-2012, 10:08 AM
  #89
joshjull
Moderator
 
joshjull's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Hamburg,NY
Country: United States
Posts: 32,478
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Der Jaeger View Post
Fair enough. I don't think there's much hysteria over Leino's contract. I don't think anyone believes he played to his contract, and I personally doubt he ever will. And I'd move him on if a major free agent signing put the Sabres over the cap, or the team cleaned house and started over.

That's just me. And, of course, it's not my money.
I'm wondering if you are factoring in all the issues involved with buying him out with an amnesty clause.

1. There is no amnesty clause right now. Its something the GMs are hoping for in the new CBA. The new CBA is unlikely to be settled prior to free agency opening up on July 1st. That means the big UFA signings will likely take place prior to knowing if there will even be an amnesty clause. I can't imagine we will sign a big name UFA hoping for amnesty clause so we can fit them under the cap. I just don't see us being that reckless. If we sign a big name UFA it will be with a smarter plan to fit them into our salary structure.

2. I don't see any UFA worth 24mil or more in payouts this summer. Thats what it would cost to buy out Leino (14mil) and sign a big name UFA (10mil or more signing bonus). Is there a UFA out there worth throwing that kind of money around to make sure we get them this summer? I don't see one.


Not to mention buyouts of big contracts are generally a desperation move by a team with a huge contract and a player thats no where its value and never will be. I don't see the Leino and his contract being in that category. He needs a minimal uptick in production to justify his deal. We are talking about a 4.5mil cap hit which is hardly an earth shattering number. He's not even in the top 90 cap hits for next season and his actual salary is tied for 46th (and his salary will drop to 4mil after next year). Thats where he is ranked as of right now before any signings this summer which will push him lower.


Last edited by joshjull: 06-03-2012 at 10:22 AM.
joshjull is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-03-2012, 01:18 PM
  #90
Der Jaeger
Registered User
 
Der Jaeger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Northern Virginia
Country: United States
Posts: 1,928
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
I'm wondering if you are factoring in all the issues involved with buying him out with an amnesty clause.

1. There is no amnesty clause right now. Its something the GMs are hoping for in the new CBA. The new CBA is unlikely to be settled prior to free agency opening up on July 1st. That means the big UFA signings will likely take place prior to knowing if there will even be an amnesty clause. I can't imagine we will sign a big name UFA hoping for amnesty clause so we can fit them under the cap. I just don't see us being that reckless. If we sign a big name UFA it will be with a smarter plan to fit them into our salary structure.

2. I don't see any UFA worth 24mil or more in payouts this summer. Thats what it would cost to buy out Leino (14mil) and sign a big name UFA (10mil or more signing bonus). Is there a UFA out there worth throwing that kind of money around to make sure we get them this summer? I don't see one.
If you go back in the thread and re-read what I wrote, I factored both of those considerations in. I understand that the amnesty clause is currently not reality. And I get the cash ramifications of buying out Leino or using the amnesty clause, if it becomes available. Post #69:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Der Jaeger View Post
(Assuming the cap amnesty - I understand that Pegula still has to pay Leino)
If the amnesty clause were made available, particularly as a one-time 2012 off-season action, I would use it on Leino under two conditions:

1.) The team was being dismantled. Which it won't be.

2.) The team wanted to sign a high end free-agent like Suter or Parise. You may not think it's worth it, and chances are, neither do Reiger and Pegula. But I consider both of those players good enough to clear cap space by using the amnesty clause on Leino.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Not to mention buyouts of big contracts are generally a desperation move by a team with a huge contract and a player thats no where its value and never will be. I don't see the Leino and his contract being in that category. He needs a minimal uptick in production to justify his deal. We are talking about a 4.5mil cap hit which is hardly an earth shattering number. He's not even in the top 90 cap hits for next season and his actual salary is tied for 46th (and his salary will drop to 4mil after next year). Thats where he is ranked as of right now before any signings this summer which will push him lower.
Do you have a link to a site that's done the measure of production compared to salary? Raw, gross, of net salary is close to irrelevant when talking about Leino. I don't have a problem with a top 6 player absorbing $4.5M of the team's yearly cap. It's pretty close to a bargain. I do have a problem with that type of cap space going to a player that is underperforming. And I guess we'll see if Leino is capable of that minimal uptick.

Again, not my money, but those are two conditions in which I'd use the amnesty cap on Leino, assuming it's part of the next CBA.

Der Jaeger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-03-2012, 02:23 PM
  #91
joshjull
Moderator
 
joshjull's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Hamburg,NY
Country: United States
Posts: 32,478
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Der Jaeger View Post
If you go back in the thread and re-read what I wrote, I factored both of those considerations in. I understand that the amnesty clause is currently not reality. And I get the cash ramifications of buying out Leino or using the amnesty clause, if it becomes available. Post #69:



If the amnesty clause were made available, particularly as a one-time 2012 off-season action, I would use it on Leino under two conditions:

1.) The team was being dismantled. Which it won't be.

2.) The team wanted to sign a high end free-agent like Suter or Parise. You may not think it's worth it, and chances are, neither do Reiger and Pegula. But I consider both of those players good enough to clear cap space by using the amnesty clause on Leino.
You say that you understand that the amnesty clause is not a reality. But by trotting out option #2 I find that hard to believe. Thats because in order for scenario #2 to happen the amnesty clause has to be in play prior to free agency starting on July 1st. I can pretty much guarantee it wont be. Since we are only 27 days from July 1st and they haven't even begun discussing the CBA.

Any decisions on signing big money UFAs on July 1st will be made without knowing if that option will be available to clear cap space.

So basically your arguing your point based on a scenario isn't going to be possible on July 1st. We can't sign a UFA on July 1st with the idea that we will buy out Leino to make room for them. Since we have no idea if that option will even be there.




Quote:
Do you have a link to a site that's done the measure of production compared to salary? Raw, gross, of net salary is close to irrelevant when talking about Leino. I don't have a problem with a top 6 player absorbing $4.5M of the team's yearly cap. It's pretty close to a bargain. I do have a problem with that type of cap space going to a player that is underperforming. And I guess we'll see if Leino is capable of that minimal uptick.

Again, not my money, but those are two conditions in which I'd use the amnesty cap on Leino, assuming it's part of the next CBA.
I don't think you fully appreciate how desperate and 'back against the wall' type of move a buyout of a contract like Leino's is. Its a waste of money and a horrible use of assests. Its something a team would use when all other options are exhausted.


We currently have 11+mil in cap space with 19 players signed for next year (10 forwards/7 dmen/2 goalies). We only have 2 roster RFAs to re-sign; Ennis and Kaleta which would give us 12 forwards and 21 players signed.

I find it incredibly hard to believe we will ever be boxed into such a corner that the only way to possibly free up cap space would be to buyout Leino. Because being boxed into a corner is the only scenario that would make sense to even consider buying him out in.

Quote:
The team wanted to sign a high end free-agent like Suter or Parise
I wanted to address these two players specifically.

Suter

With 7 NHL dmen under contract (Myers, Ehrhoff, Sekera, Regehr, Leopold, Sulzer and Weber) with 5 of them top 4 dmen plus young, high end prospects like McNabb, Pysyk and JGL on the farm. Why on earth would Suter be a target for us this summer? Defense isn't remotely a need for this team.

But even if he did sign here we are looking at a roughly 7mil cap hit, give or take. A dman will need to moved out to make room on the roster since we currently have 7. The likely candidate would be Leopold and his 3mil cap hit. That would be more than enough cap space opened up. There would be no need to buyout Leino to sign Suter. Even though it makes no sense to be pursuing him in the first place.

Parise

I could see a play for him. But I don't see his cap hit being any higher than 6-6.5mil on a long term front loaded deal. There would be no need to move anyone out to sign him at that cap hit and re-sign Ennis and Kaleta. At worst a minor move like waiving McCormick might be needed.



At the end of the day this debate is moot. Regier has stated they aren't looking to go big in free agency this summer. he is waiting for the season to end and the trade market to start shaping up. I also doubt the team views Leino or his deal as the problem you and others see it as.


Last edited by joshjull: 06-03-2012 at 02:31 PM.
joshjull is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-03-2012, 06:05 PM
  #92
Der Jaeger
Registered User
 
Der Jaeger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Northern Virginia
Country: United States
Posts: 1,928
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
You say that you understand that the amnesty clause is not a reality. But by trotting out option #2 I find that hard to believe.
Seriously? So, I say I understand it's not reality right now, and you debate that?

The 10% overage expires at the first day of the regular season. The CBA expires on September 15th. Hmmm... there's some overlap there. So, if Buffalo signed a prime free agent that put them into the overage, they wouldn't need to reconcile until the start of the regular season, governed by a new CBA and potentially a new, one-time use amnesty clause.

The Globe and Mail report indicates teams have been told to plan for a $70M cap. For a team like Buffalo, close to the cap, they could sign a big name free agent using the additional ~$5M in cap space, but they'd be very tight to the cap. If the amnesty clause never comes about, they make other moves, potentially.

If it does become reality, and I was the GM, I'd use it on Leino to back off the cap limit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
I don't think you fully appreciate how desperate and 'back against the wall' type of move a buyout of a contract like Leino's is. Its a waste of money and a horrible use of assests. Its something a team would use when all other options are exhausted.


We currently have 11+mil in cap space with 19 players signed for next year (10 forwards/7 dmen/2 goalies). We only have 2 roster RFAs to re-sign; Ennis and Kaleta which would give us 12 forwards and 21 players signed.

I find it incredibly hard to believe we will ever be boxed into such a corner that the only way to possibly free up cap space would be to buyout Leino. Because being boxed into a corner is the only scenario that would make sense to even consider buying him out in.
I've never read a moderator so eager to jump on posters and show them up. All along, in post #69, and this post, #80, all I've contended was "if."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Der Jaeger View Post
And I'd move him on if a major free agent signing put the Sabres over the cap
Not to be all Spartan talking to the Macedonians, but that "if" is a pretty key word. "If" Buffalo signed a major free agent (or free agents) and needed the cap space, I'd use it on Leino.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
I wanted to address these two players specifically.

Suter

With 7 NHL dmen under contract (Myers, Ehrhoff, Sekera, Regehr, Leopold, Sulzer and Weber) with 5 of them top 4 dmen plus young, high end prospects like McNabb, Pysyk and JGL on the farm. Why on earth would Suter be a target for us this summer? Defense isn't remotely a need for this team.

But even if he did sign here we are looking at a roughly 7mil cap hit, give or take. A dman will need to moved out to make room on the roster since we currently have 7. The likely candidate would be Leopold and his 3mil cap hit. That would be more than enough cap space opened up. There would be no need to buyout Leino to sign Suter. Even though it makes no sense to be pursuing him in the first place.

Parise

I could see a play for him. But I don't see his cap hit being any higher than 6-6.5mil on a long term front loaded deal. There would be no need to move anyone out to sign him at that cap hit and re-sign Ennis and Kaleta. At worst a minor move like waiving McCormick might be needed.

At the end of the day this debate is moot. Regier has stated they aren't looking to go big in free agency this summer. he is waiting for the season to end and the trade market to start shaping up. I also doubt the team views Leino or his deal as the problem you and others see it as.
Great points. I never advocated Buffalo signing either. Go back and check. My only point was to show that I'd use an existing amnesty clause on Leino if it got Buffalo under the cap after free agency. Suter and Parise are the two best players in free agency, and I used them to make a point.

I'm not trying to start a pissing contest with you - but you're questioning my understanding of the CBA, among other things. You can go back and read - I have two conditions where I'd use an existing amnesty clause on Leino - if cap space was needed, or the team was being deconstructed. I stand by both.

Der Jaeger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-03-2012, 06:26 PM
  #93
McTank
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,820
vCash: 500
IMO we are only a top 6 winger and a upgrade on roy away from being a contender.
If we bring in a center like staal I think right there we would be top 5 in the east but than if we can also bring in a winger to play with vanek and hodgson I think we would be a contender. We could trade for someone like JVR, clowe, any top 6 abilty big bodied guy. Or we could even take a run at signing parise and that would instantly make us contenders.
Leino-Staal-Pommers
Vanek-CoHo-Parise/JVR/XX
Foligno-Enzo-Stafford

That forward corps with our D and Miller could definately win a cup

McTank is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-03-2012, 06:47 PM
  #94
Jame
Dream '16
 
Jame's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Palm Harbor, FL
Country: Pitcairn Islands
Posts: 33,214
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheyAreGoodScaryGood View Post
IMO we are only a top 6 winger and a upgrade on roy away from being a contender.
If we bring in a center like staal I think right there we would be top 5 in the east but than if we can also bring in a winger to play with vanek and hodgson I think we would be a contender. We could trade for someone like JVR, clowe, any top 6 abilty big bodied guy. Or we could even take a run at signing parise and that would instantly make us contenders.
Leino-Staal-Pommers
Vanek-CoHo-Parise/JVR/XX
Foligno-Enzo-Stafford

That forward corps with our D and Miller could definately win a cup
much farther away then that...

Jame is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
06-03-2012, 07:30 PM
  #95
joshjull
Moderator
 
joshjull's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Hamburg,NY
Country: United States
Posts: 32,478
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Der Jaeger View Post
Seriously? So, I say I understand it's not reality right now, and you debate that?

The 10% overage expires at the first day of the regular season. The CBA expires on September 15th. Hmmm... there's some overlap there. So, if Buffalo signed a prime free agent that put them into the overage, they wouldn't need to reconcile until the start of the regular season, governed by a new CBA and potentially a new, one-time use amnesty clause.

The Globe and Mail report indicates teams have been told to plan for a $70M cap. For a team like Buffalo, close to the cap, they could sign a big name free agent using the additional ~$5M in cap space, but they'd be very tight to the cap. If the amnesty clause never comes about, they make other moves, potentially.

If it does become reality, and I was the GM, I'd use it on Leino to back off the cap limit.
I'm well aware of that and it was the basis for the cap space I pointed out in my previous post. I also referenced Capgeek.

Based on that 70.3mil anticipated upper limit the Sabres have 11.7mil in cap space with 19 players already signed for next year. Thats 10 forwards, 7 dmen and 2 goalies. The only roster players that need re-signing are 2 RFAs (Ennis and Kaleta) and they wont cost more than 4mil combined in cap hits. So that leaves 7.7mil in cap space with 21 players signed. 12 forwards, 7 dmen and 2 goalies.

Where is the cap issue you feel we will need to address if we sign a UFA to a huge front loaded deal with a 6-7mil cap hit? Even after signing a UFA to deal like that there would still be 700k -1.7mil in cap space with only one roster spot left to fill. A spot we dont have to fill or could easily fill with an inexpensive vet.

Quote:
I've never read a moderator so eager to jump on posters and show them up. All along, in post #69, and this post, #80, all I've contended was "if."

Not to be all Spartan talking to the Macedonians, but that "if" is a pretty key word. "If" Buffalo signed a major free agent (or free agents) and needed the cap space, I'd use it on Leino.
First, me being a moderator is irrelevant to this debate. So lets leave that alone.

Second, all along I've pointed that your "if" is missing the point. Any plan the Sabres have heading into the offseason will not be reliant on using an amnesty clause that may or not be in place before next season. Their plans will be in other directions to make sure they can build the roster they want to.

I can't see a situation arising where they have to buy out Leino to accomodate their plans for this off season becasue they wont put themselves in a situation where they would have to do so.


Quote:
Great points. I never advocated Buffalo signing either. Go back and check. My only point was to show that I'd use an existing amnesty clause on Leino if it got Buffalo under the cap after free agency. Suter and Parise are the two best players in free agency, and I used them to make a point.
And my point is its not going to be an issue.

Also if you're not advocating signing either of those two then whats the point. You have to name a specific player that we would target and sign this summer for this arguement to make any sense. As in you feel we need to buy out Leino to free up money after we sign "player X". Since the amensty clause (if it happens) is only going to be in play this summer. Speaking in hypotheticals is rather pointless.


Quote:
I'm not trying to start a pissing contest with you - but you're questioning my understanding of the CBA, among other things. You can go back and read - I have two conditions where I'd use an existing amnesty clause on Leino - if cap space was needed, or the team was being deconstructed. I stand by both
I'm not questioning your understanding of the CBA. I'm questioning your understanding of the Sabres situation. I'm also questioning your thinking that a buyout using the amnesty clause would be a first option for a team trying to get cap compliant. Or that the Sabres would even put themslves in that situation in the first place.

It makes little sense to argue hypotheticals that will never happen as legit reasons to buy out Leino.


Last edited by joshjull: 06-03-2012 at 07:36 PM.
joshjull is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-03-2012, 07:48 PM
  #96
joshjull
Moderator
 
joshjull's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Hamburg,NY
Country: United States
Posts: 32,478
vCash: 500
The only way Leino would likely get bought out with a one time amnesty is if the Sabres felt his deal was so onerous they had to get rid of it. It would be a stand alone decision.


Last edited by joshjull: 06-03-2012 at 08:37 PM.
joshjull is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-03-2012, 10:05 PM
  #97
Der Jaeger
Registered User
 
Der Jaeger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Northern Virginia
Country: United States
Posts: 1,928
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post

I'm well aware of that and it was the basis for the cap space I pointed out in my previous post. I also referenced Capgeek.

Based on that 70.3mil anticipated upper limit the Sabres have 11.7mil in cap space with 19 players already signed for next year. Thats 10 forwards, 7 dmen and 2 goalies. The only roster players that need re-signing are 2 RFAs (Ennis and Kaleta) and they wont cost more than 4mil combined in cap hits. So that leaves 7.7mil in cap space with 21 players signed. 12 forwards, 7 dmen and 2 goalies.

Where is the cap issue you feel we will need to address if we sign a UFA to a huge front loaded deal with a 6-7mil cap hit? Even after signing a UFA to deal like that there would still be 700k -1.7mil in cap space with only one roster spot left to fill. A spot we dont have to fill or could easily fill with an inexpensive vet.
Yep, I referenced Capgeek too. That $11M that you're referencing also doesn't take into account Foligno or Tropp. You make an assumption that Kaleta and Ennis won't combined make over $4M - my guess is $4.5M - ~$1M for Kaleta and ~$3.5M for Ennis. Both are close enough, but that's $5.6M by your guess, and $6.1M by my guess off that $11M. Leaving ~$5 to $5.5M left.

But that's not the whole story. That's assuming that Buffalo is set with McCormick centering their 4th line, and that Regier is OK with the roster as is. If that's the case, then Buffalo is fine with that type of cap space. If Reiger wants someone bigger, it could get tight. Especially is the cap goes down or stays the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Second, all along I've pointed that your "if" is missing the point. Any plan the Sabres have heading into the offseason will not be reliant on using an amnesty clause that may or not be in place before next season. Their plans will be in other directions to make sure they can build the roster they want to.

I can't see a situation arising where they have to buy out Leino to accomodate their plans for this off season becasue they wont put themselves in a situation where they would have to do so.
According to your opinion, which is no better or worse than anyone on this board. Buffalo doesn't have to plan entirely off a potential amnesty clause. They could try trades first, and burying players in Rochester, before using the clause. Buffalo can sign free agents, knowing they've got a couple routes to free cap space. Again, "if" Buffalo needed cap space, the amnesty clause would be an option for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
And my point is its not going to be an issue.

Also if you're not advocating signing either of those two then whats the point. You have to name a specific player that we would target and sign this summer for this arguement to make any sense. As in you feel we need to buy out Leino to free up money after we sign "player X". Since the amensty clause (if it happens) is only going to be in play this summer. Speaking in hypotheticals is rather pointless.
No I don't. My point: if available, Buffalo could use the amnesty clause on Leino if they signed a major free agent, like Suter or Parise, or a series of free agents that put them over the cap limit. You're trying to frame the argument around the specifics of Parise and Suter. I don't have to make points within parameters you set.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
I'm not questioning your understanding of the CBA. I'm questioning your understanding of the Sabres situation. I'm also questioning your thinking that a buyout using the amnesty clause would be a first option for a team trying to get cap compliant. Or that the Sabres would even put themslves in that situation in the first place.

It makes little sense to argue hypotheticals that will never happen as legit reasons to buy out Leino.
I understand the Sabres' cap situation well enough for this argument. I also never said that the amnesty clause would be the Sabres' first option - show me in the thread where I said that. That's an argument your making, one that I never said. You're trying to show me the errors of a viewpoint that I never had, or wrote about.

Not arguing hypotheticals on HF? Really? Doesn't that take out about half the trade and mock boards?

Der Jaeger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-03-2012, 11:24 PM
  #98
McTank
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,820
vCash: 500
Dont realy think it would be smart to go out and spend to the cap if we finally have 7 million in cap space, if we spend it this summer we're gonna be very upset if a 1C like getzlaf hits the market next summer

McTank is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-03-2012, 11:31 PM
  #99
DJN21
Registered User
 
DJN21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Rochester
Posts: 1,761
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheyAreGoodScaryGood View Post
Dont realy think it would be smart to go out and spend to the cap if we finally have 7 million in cap space, if we spend it this summer we're gonna be very upset if a 1C like getzlaf hits the market next summer
bingo

DJN21 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-04-2012, 04:02 AM
  #100
heartsabres*
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Budapest
Country: Hungary
Posts: 1,790
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheyAreGoodScaryGood View Post
Dont realy think it would be smart to go out and spend to the cap if we finally have 7 million in cap space, if we spend it this summer we're gonna be very upset if a 1C like getzlaf hits the market next summer
That is not a good Idea, first off you can not plan for the what ifs if you are a GM, secondly trading salary back to Anaheim is always an option and when you open the season with your roster your plan is to have those pieces in place already. Also you can trade Salary to other teams, also if you eat up that 7 million it means you brought in Parise or a first line center.

heartsabres* is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:04 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.