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The Official Jordan Staal Wacky Speculation Thread IV

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06-02-2012, 06:18 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
Yep. I don't see Staal leaving b/c of PP time or grinder mold linemates. But I do think he questions if he's outgrown his role with our team. He can be a great #2C on a lot of playoff teams.

The way I see it if we want to keep the 3C model longterm, you have to use all three centers as your top 3 offensive players. Doubleshift them on the wing. Drop Sid/Geno down to the 4th line and allow Staal some ES shifts with Neal/Kuni/etc. That'll make the opposing coach's life extremely difficult.

I'd like to see us put together a 4th line that can go up against anyone at any time in a game. Use that as a go-to checking line. Thus allowing us to throw Staal up in the top 6 more often and have that line come out after.

This was all alluded to by DB over the course of the regular season when he was asked how he was going to use all three centers. Stacking the top 6 when down and finding a proper checking line so Staal can see more offensive zone starts is key.
The key that we are both looking for is having three all-situation centers instead of Malkin being all offense and Staal being all defense I think. I think a big part of this could be giving Sid and Geno some more defensive responsibility too. That would free up some offensive starts for Staal and it would screw with the match-ups of the other team. I think a change like this would do more to make Staal happy than giving him top powerplay time would. I think he'll always see his PK time cut into whatever PP time he would otherwise get unless we get enough good point guys to split Sid and Geno.

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Maybe Vitale can be a reliable defensive center for us. I wanted to see us bring in a Peverley type. Someone who can move up and down the lineup at wing or center. Fill that role of checking line center, fill a hole on wing in the top 6 and (god forbid) if two of our centers go down, he can fill in as a #2C.
I think if Jeffrey can get everything together he could be a Peverley type as far as moving around the line-up. I am really nervous about what that injury did to his skating though. Not to mention missing the majority of a season as soon as he looks ready to break in to the league full time. That has to be tough to deal with.

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06-02-2012, 06:20 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
You said that the difference between a top 5 prospect (Scheen) wasn't that much different from a top 15 prospect (Saad), which is completely wrong. And not only because Saad isn't even close to a top 15 prospect or top 30.
Saad was projected to be a top 5 pick before the bad season. He is a much better prospects than a lot of the guys taken in the top 30.

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06-02-2012, 08:21 PM
  #53
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Saad was projected to be a top 5 pick before the bad season. He is a much better prospects than a lot of the guys taken in the top 30.
We're talking about top 5 prospect in the league, not the 2011 draft.

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06-02-2012, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
We're talking about top 5 prospect in the league, not the 2011 draft.
Oh sorry. Yeah that makes more sense.

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06-02-2012, 09:09 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
We're talking about top 5 prospect in the league, not the 2011 draft.
For me the weird thing is that some think we should get a Richard like return when Richard was more of an impact player and signed for long long time to a great contract.

Surely Schenn is not comparable to Saad, but that doesn't mean him, a first and a proven, quality and youngish 3rd line C is not a good return. IF Staal wants too much that is.

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06-02-2012, 09:14 PM
  #56
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For me the weird thing is that some think we should get a Richard like return when Richard was more of an impact player and signed for long long time to a great contract.

Surely Schenn is not comparable to Saad, but that doesn't mean him, a first and a proven, quality and youngish 3rd line C is not a good return. IF Staal wants too much that is.
Richard's crazy long contract is pretty comparable to Staal's one year contract, IMO. They're both risks. Also, Richards was only offered to a few teams on the hush-hush and was moved because of locker-room issues, which lowered his value. Also, and more importantly Carter was also available, which lowered their values because of supply and demand.

Staal, on the other hand is younger than Richards, has no locker-room issues, would be made available to all teams and has no competition from other centers. All things considered their values are pretty close.

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06-02-2012, 09:16 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
Richard's crazy long contract is pretty comparable to Staal's one year contract, IMO. They're both risks. Also, Richards was only offered to a few teams on the hush-hush and was moved because of locker-room issues, which lowered his value. Also, and more importantly Carter was also available, which lowered their values because of supply and demand.

Staal, on the other hand is younger than Richards, has no locker-room issues, would be made available to all teams and has no competition from other centers. All things considered their values are pretty close.
He isn't getting a Richards return if the other team isn't given permission to talk to him about a contract extension imo. That essentially means he won't be traded to a team he knows he won't sign with.

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06-02-2012, 11:02 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
Richard's crazy long contract is pretty comparable to Staal's one year contract, IMO.
I haven't been to that planet, so it is ignorance on my part, that I don't know how you feel .

Richards will be 35 at the end of his contract, and once he is 33 the salary drops to something that can easily be moved unless he has no wheels left. How one can consider these comparable I just don't know. That's like saying you'd prefer to see Malkin and/or Crosby get three or four year deals next time to better manage risk....

And as for locker room issues.... Richards was the captain on the Flyers, an important piece on Canada's Olympic gold team and is by all accounts the next captain on the soon to be Stanley Cup winners. Perhaps the jibes about him have been overdone due to the animosity there is towards Philly....didn't take more than one series before every ones darling Giroux became a black sheep.

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06-03-2012, 12:41 AM
  #59
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I haven't been to that planet, so it is ignorance on my part, that I don't know how you feel .

Richards will be 35 at the end of his contract, and once he is 33 the salary drops to something that can easily be moved unless he has no wheels left. How one can consider these comparable I just don't know. That's like saying you'd prefer to see Malkin and/or Crosby get three or four year deals next time to better manage risk....

And as for locker room issues.... Richards was the captain on the Flyers, an important piece on Canada's Olympic gold team and is by all accounts the next captain on the soon to be Stanley Cup winners. Perhaps the jibes about him have been overdone due to the animosity there is towards Philly....didn't take more than one series before every ones darling Giroux became a black sheep.
Look no further than Jeff Carter. CBJ gave up a huge package for him and his HUGE contract. He didn't like CBJ and played like **** so they were forced to move him for much less than they paid for him.

These retirement contracts can be just as scary as only having 1 year to reach a deal with a player on your own terms.

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06-03-2012, 02:01 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
Look no further than Jeff Carter. CBJ gave up a huge package for him and his HUGE contract. He didn't like CBJ and played like **** so they were forced to move him for much less than they paid for him.

These retirement contracts can be just as scary as only having 1 year to reach a deal with a player on your own terms.
What does that have to do with anything? If a 'bad' team in a suspect market trades for Staal, they could be in the same kind of situation, and whichever player doesn't work out in a new team will lose value when he is then to be traded. Columbus gave up too much in any case, but that is also a function of them being the team they are and not being able to sign marquee players in free agency without overpaying on salary. It isn't our situation, nor Philly's or LA's for that matter.

There are long contracts and then there are long contracts. It is one kind of risk going for an almost 30 Hossa signed beyond 40, and then Richards contract, and no matter what - being signed for one year with UFA then looming gives another kind of worth than being one you can count on as an asset for a long time (lets be honest here, if Staal doesn't want to sign for us in a month, then his value drops, just like all of us here have told Devils and Nashville fans that they couldn't expect a full return on guys like Parise and Suter with only one year before UFA).

Being signed long term only drags on your value if the contract pushes far too long in terms of age, or if the player in question has a very dodgy injury record. For Richards, the number of years on his contract makes him MORE valuable.

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06-03-2012, 02:37 AM
  #61
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The horrific undervaluing of both of them on this board is hilarious. Look at Campbell the last 2 years before he was traded to Florida as a prime example. Martin had a rough year and may not fit into the system that DB has, hardly means that he isnt a top pairing defenseman. Bouwmeester is a top pairing defenseman who has struggled offensively under Sutters offensive stifling system, but he still was playing a solid 25-30 minutes a game. I would rather have Bouwmeester and Martin as my top pairing then the majority of the other options teams have around the league.
you would want a top pairing of two soft defenceman who put up less than 10 goals, 60 points, were -12 and make about 12 million combined?

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06-03-2012, 08:37 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
Look no further than Jeff Carter. CBJ gave up a huge package for him and his HUGE contract. He didn't like CBJ and played like **** so they were forced to move him for much less than they paid for him.

These retirement contracts can be just as scary as only having 1 year to reach a deal with a player on your own terms.
they can be just as scary, but in the case of Richards vs Staal there is not a single team in the league who would give up as much for Staal under his current contract as they would for Richards under his. The only way we get a Richards level return is if he can talk to the team in question and convince them that the will sign with them.

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06-03-2012, 08:48 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
What does that have to do with anything? If a 'bad' team in a suspect market trades for Staal, they could be in the same kind of situation, and whichever player doesn't work out in a new team will lose value when he is then to be traded. Columbus gave up too much in any case, but that is also a function of them being the team they are and not being able to sign marquee players in free agency without overpaying on salary. It isn't our situation, nor Philly's or LA's for that matter.

There are long contracts and then there are long contracts. It is one kind of risk going for an almost 30 Hossa signed beyond 40, and then Richards contract, and no matter what - being signed for one year with UFA then looming gives another kind of worth than being one you can count on as an asset for a long time (lets be honest here, if Staal doesn't want to sign for us in a month, then his value drops, just like all of us here have told Devils and Nashville fans that they couldn't expect a full return on guys like Parise and Suter with only one year before UFA).

Being signed long term only drags on your value if the contract pushes far too long in terms of age, or if the player in question has a very dodgy injury record. For Richards, the number of years on his contract makes him MORE valuable.
Given the circumstances of Richards' departure though, that may be debatable. What's a guy doing off-ice to force management into trading a beloved captain with a decade left on his contract?

Food for thought.

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06-03-2012, 10:19 AM
  #64
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Food for thought.
I think people here have been getting fat and sugar high on speculating about this for a long time .

Fact remains, Richards on his contract is a guaranteed top player and all-situation impact guy for many years. Jordan Staal is one year from free agency and (IMO) not yet the player Richards is.

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06-03-2012, 10:25 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
I think people here have been getting fat and sugar high on speculating about this for a long time.

Fact remains, Richards on his contract is a guaranteed top player and all-situation impact guy for many years. Jordan Staal is one year from free agency and (IMO) not yet the player Richards is.
A team trading away a player like Richards, with Richards' contract, invites speculation.

And Staal was better than Richards this year. By a fair margin, too.

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06-03-2012, 10:57 AM
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A team trading away a player like Richards, with Richards' contract, invites speculation.

And Staal was better than Richards this year. By a fair margin, too.
Yeah, well... for the first time Staal outscored Richards, while Richards was in his first year with a new team - a team that struggled for a long time and scored a lot less than the Pens... less than ANY other team in the NHL during the regular season (bizarre), which of course explains some of his below norm scoring, as he came from a run and gun team and now is on a very stingy one.

Now they look like the next Stanley Cup champion with Richards in a key role. Better season? I wonder what everyone here - including you - said about this comparison when we won the Cup and Richards had 30 goals and 80 points during the regular season as a 24 year old.

I wouldn't dispute that Staal can be better than Richards down the line (except on the PP) - but then again contracts matter, and I would never argue in favor of the Pens paying full price for a player with one year before UFA.

As for Philly trading Richards... so there was apparently a split in the locker room between Richards and Pronger... they could hardly trade Pronger and would be stuck with his cap-hit. Richards could get a solid return and Holmgreen is arguably the most trigger happy GM there is. Suppose it wasn't healthy for his captains rep, that he was a moping, introverted tit when being interviewed - nor, granted, that he was a party boy on a team that didn't meet the owners expectations (did get to the Stanley Cup final though).

Either way, what matters is how a player performs. Look at Richards on the ice, and I'd say his coaches have been getting what they want from him. I also think LA are pretty happy with his contract, never mind if he is made an A, C or just stays one of their best players.

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06-03-2012, 11:04 AM
  #67
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Fact remains, Richards on his contract is a guaranteed top player and all-situation impact guy for many years. Jordan Staal is one year from free agency and (IMO) not yet the player Richards is.
I've sort of been thinking this and didn't want to be the one to say it.

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A team trading away a player like Richards, with Richards' contract, invites speculation.
It also says that this is a rare opportunity to get a damn good player signed to a good cap hit for a long time. Whatever speculation there was around Richards, it never really seemed to affect his on ice play.

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And Staal was better than Richards this year. By a fair margin, too.
but was Staal better this year than Richards was before he got traded? We're talking about a guy who was a year removed from captaining a team to the Finals with a PPG playoff performance and has two PPG regular seasons in his back pocket on top of being a great defensive player. I have a hard time believing that Richards didn't have more value when he was traded than Staal does now even ignoring the contracts.

That doesn't mean I think Staal will be traded for less than Richards was. I think it's KIRK who keeps saying that Shero won't trade Staal unless he is essentially overpayed for him and I think I agree with that.

edit: Get out of my head TR

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06-03-2012, 11:05 AM
  #68
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Remember: In order to maximize the trade value of Staal, if the Pens are unable to sign him to an extension, they will likely grant his agent permission to speak with other teams. That means that Staal is going to effectilvely supply a list of teams he is willing to speak with. Regardless of what teams that we may like (hypothetical) trade proposals from, it's irrelevant if Staal isn't interested in signing an extension there.
What makes you think an extension has to be part of the deal? Many teams might take a chance on letting him play there a full season and trying to sign him next spring / summer. Plenty of teams have plenty of cap room. I think it's fair to say Shero will involve Staal in the process in terms of handling it like a class organization / not ignoring what the player wants, but the value of trade offers depends only on the other GM offers. Shero is going to sit back and let the offers role in, pick the two or three he likes best, talk with Staal about those, and as long as there isn't a major conflict he'll pick the deal he likes best. Simple as that.

Whether Staal's agent talking to other teams will drive up the offers, I don't know. I suppose that's possible. But Staal has neither a NTC nor a NMC AFAIK (?), which means Shero drives the discussion, and value for the Penguins takes precedent over any other factor, including Staal's wish list. If Shero can get an A+ deal from a team Staal has no interest in, or an A- deal from a team he does have interest, I'm sure he'll go with the latter. But if Staal's top destinations are offering mediocre value, Shero won't do it / will move him somewhere else. Simple as that.

In the end though if we get a nice cap bump Shero will sign him most likely.

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06-03-2012, 11:17 AM
  #69
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What makes you think an extension has to be part of the deal? Many teams might take a chance on letting him play there a full season and trying to sign him next spring / summer. Plenty of teams have plenty of cap room. I think it's fair to say Shero will involve Staal in the process in terms of handling it like a class organization / not ignoring what the player wants, but the value of trade offers depends only on the other GM offers. Shero is going to sit back and let the offers role in, pick the two or three he likes best, talk with Staal about those, and as long as there isn't a major conflict he'll pick the deal he likes best. Simple as that.

Whether Staal's agent talking to other teams will drive up the offers, I don't know. I suppose that's possible. But Staal has neither a NTC nor a NMC AFAIK (?), which means Shero drives the discussion, and value for the Penguins takes precedent over any other factor, including Staal's wish list. If Shero can get an A+ deal from a team Staal has no interest in, or an A- deal from a team he does have interest, I'm sure he'll go with the latter. But if Staal's top destinations are offering mediocre value, Shero won't do it / will move him somewhere else. Simple as that.

In the end though if we get a nice cap bump Shero will sign him most likely.
I think the point he's making is that 1 year of Staal isn't going to bring back the same return as a signed Staal or a Staal that they can at least discuss it with. I can't imagine we get anything resembling what Philly got for Richards or Carter if the other team has no idea if he plans to walk next year. I wouldn't want us to give up the types of assets we are talking about bringing in for 1 year of almost anybody.

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06-03-2012, 11:22 AM
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I think the point he's making is that 1 year of Staal isn't going to bring back the same return as a signed Staal or a Staal that they can at least discuss it with. I can't imagine we get anything resembling what Philly got for Richards or Carter if the other team has no idea if he plans to walk next year. I wouldn't want us to give up the types of assets we are talking about bringing in for 1 year of almost anybody.
AH. OK... that makes sense. So same teams might make offers but not as good if they can't agree in principle to a deal ahead of time. Although I doubt very much Carter's agent talked to anyone in CBJ. There's no way he would've agreed to play there and IMO he dogged it the entire time he was there in order to get moved. Mission accomplished.

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06-03-2012, 11:25 AM
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AH. OK... that makes sense. So same teams might make offers but not as good if they can't agree in principle to a deal ahead of time. Although I doubt very much Carter's agent talked to anyone in CBJ. There's no way he would've agreed to play there and IMO he dogged it the entire time he was there in order to get moved. Mission accomplished.
Agreed about Carter. And I think that could make teams even more aware of the risk of bringing a guy in who might not want to be there.

Ideally I hope we trade him somewhere like that for a Carter-like return and then he decides to re-sign with us as a UFA the year after. Or he whines his way to a deadline trade and we trade Martin to bring him back. Shero and Staal, you now have a mission.

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06-03-2012, 11:31 AM
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Yeah, well... for the first time Staal outscored Richards, while Richards was in his first year with a new team - a team that struggled for a long time and scored a lot less than the Pens... less than ANY other team in the NHL during the regular season (bizarre), which of course explains some of his below norm scoring, as he came from a run and gun team and now is on a very stingy one.

Now they look like the next Stanley Cup champion with Richards in a key role. Better season? I wonder what everyone here - including you - said about this comparison when we won the Cup and Richards had 30 goals and 80 points during the regular season as a 24 year old.

I wouldn't dispute that Staal can be better than Richards down the line (except on the PP) - but then again contracts matter, and I would never argue in favor of the Pens paying full price for a player with one year before UFA.

As for Philly trading Richards... so there was apparently a split in the locker room between Richards and Pronger... they could hardly trade Pronger and would be stuck with his cap-hit. Richards could get a solid return and Holmgreen is arguably the most trigger happy GM there is. Suppose it wasn't healthy for his captains rep, that he was a moping, introverted tit when being interviewed - nor, granted, that he was a party boy on a team that didn't meet the owners expectations (did get to the Stanley Cup final though).

Either way, what matters is how a player performs. Look at Richards on the ice, and I'd say his coaches have been getting what they want from him. I also think LA are pretty happy with his contract, never mind if he is made an A, C or just stays one of their best players.
It's great that Richards has fit in with LA, but that's not really the point, IMO. The point was that Philly was keen to move Richards due to extenuating circumstances, because otherwise there'd really be no reason to move him. Whether it was a locker room issue, an "extra-curricular" issue, both, or none, there was some reason Flyers management found it untenable to keep Richards, and that plays into value. We have no such reason to move Staal.

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It also says that this is a rare opportunity to get a damn good player signed to a good cap hit for a long time. Whatever speculation there was around Richards, it never really seemed to affect his on ice play.
A damn good player that for some elusive reason his previous team couldn't bear to keep.

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but was Staal better this year than Richards was before he got traded? We're talking about a guy who was a year removed from captaining a team to the Finals with a PPG playoff performance and has two PPG regular seasons in his back pocket on top of being a great defensive player. I have a hard time believing that Richards didn't have more value when he was traded than Staal does now even ignoring the contracts.
The year before? I'd say it was probably a dead heat.

Richards' better track record and contract play into his value, but so does Staal's age/potential and the fact that the Pens have no pressing need to move him. Philly was motivated to move Richards; the Pens would have to be enticed to move Staal.

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That doesn't mean I think Staal will be traded for less than Richards was. I think it's KIRK who keeps saying that Shero won't trade Staal unless he is essentially overpayed for him and I think I agree with that
I guess we're sort of in agreement. You just figure Richards has that much more value due to his contract and previous production, but if Staal were traded, our situation dictates that we'd have to be given a similar return to Philly regardless of Richards' advantages there?

I believe Staal's age/potential, relative lack of opportunity, and unblemished reputation play a big role in value too, and put them about on par regardless of our situation.

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06-03-2012, 11:34 AM
  #73
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I think the point he's making is that 1 year of Staal isn't going to bring back the same return as a signed Staal or a Staal that they can at least discuss it with. I can't imagine we get anything resembling what Philly got for Richards or Carter if the other team has no idea if he plans to walk next year. I wouldn't want us to give up the types of assets we are talking about bringing in for 1 year of almost anybody.
I can't imagine any team would trade for Staal unless they had some pretty convincing assurances in principal that he would re-sign beforehand.

Burns is always the go-to example here.

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06-03-2012, 11:51 AM
  #74
Ogrezilla
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post

I guess we're sort of in agreement. You just figure Richards has that much more value due to his contract and previous production, but if Staal were traded, our situation dictates that we'd have to be given a similar return to Philly regardless of Richards' advantages there?

I believe Staal's age/potential, relative lack of opportunity, and unblemished reputation play a big role in value too, and put them about on par regardless of our situation.
Pretty much. I think Staal's contract situation will limit the teams that will offer a Richards level deal though. I just don't see how it is worth the risk to a team that knows they will likely still be rebuilding after this coming season unless they have the chance to work something out with him before the trade. Basically, I think we'll see offers from contenders that need a top 6 center, Toronto because Burke is Burke and Carolina because they have a trump card in Eric.

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06-03-2012, 12:09 PM
  #75
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Pretty much. I think Staal's contract situation will limit the teams that will offer a Richards level deal though. I just don't see how it is worth the risk to a team that knows they will likely still be rebuilding after this coming season unless they have the chance to work something out with him before the trade. Basically, I think we'll see offers from contenders that need a top 6 center, Toronto because Burke is Burke and Carolina because they have a trump card in Eric.
You're right, but I think any team that trades for Staal would have extended talks with him beforehand. If he was apprehensive about a re-sign, I doubt any deal would get done. Either the risk would be too high for the suitor or the return would be too low for Shero.

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