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Thornton or Marleau

View Poll Results: Who would you rather keep on the team if we had to move one or the other?
Joe Thornton 99 86.09%
Patrick Marleau 16 13.91%
Voters: 115. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
05-20-2012, 07:24 PM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreatGonzo View Post
We couldn't trade Marleau if we tried, so what is the point?
I strongly disagree with that. If they negotiated that a trade is in both sides' best interest, there will be a long list of suitors all that will offer something of value for the man. Nobody is foolish enough to believe that he has no value that is sitting in a GM's position.

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05-20-2012, 07:28 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Led Zappa View Post
Just because some will use it as an excuse to bash him doesn't make it an unworthy discussion. Some try and paint it as if it's a toss up. If it were, the poll wouldn't be as lopsided as it is IMO. I'm pretty sure that when it was "who's your favorite player" the poll was a lot closer.
This is what I'm talking about, LZ.

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Originally Posted by BCShark View Post
patty is a bum
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Originally Posted by Sniper Archetype View Post
Joe Thornton very easily. It's a shame we won't be able to drop Marleau.
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Originally Posted by Bizz06 View Post
I'd rather keep Michal Handzus than Patrick Marleau....

Joe Thornton is literally the only reason the Sharks are not a perennial lottery pick team. Marleau is a 7M waste of cap space.

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05-20-2012, 08:03 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
I strongly disagree with that. If they negotiated that a trade is in both sides' best interest, there will be a long list of suitors all that will offer something of value for the man. Nobody is foolish enough to believe that he has no value that is sitting in a GM's position.
I think he means the fact that Patty probably wouldn't waive to go anywhere.

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05-20-2012, 08:06 PM
  #79
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I think he means the fact that Patty probably wouldn't waive to go anywhere.
Nope, he's really convinced that Patty has zero trade value.

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05-20-2012, 08:35 PM
  #80
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I think if Marleau were made available he would have quite a few suitors but thats not happening. My only real beef with him is when he struggles it seems he starts to think too much instead of using his talent and that has an adverse effect on his entire game.

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05-20-2012, 09:31 PM
  #81
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Marleau sucks. I'd rather have Wallin making 7 mill on this team than Marleau. Get him off the team.








Am I trolling correctly?

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05-20-2012, 09:34 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Shark Fin Soup View Post
Marleau sucks. I'd rather have Wallin making 7 mill on this team than Marleau. Get him off the team.








Am I trolling correctly?
Yes.

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Old
05-20-2012, 09:39 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Shark Fin Soup View Post
Marleau sucks. I'd rather have Wallin making 7 mill on this team than Marleau. Get him off the team.


You really have no idea what you're talking about. Wallin could easily get 8+ on the open market. No way will he take that big of a discount.

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05-21-2012, 12:56 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by mafoofoo View Post


You really have no idea what you're talking about. Wallin could easily get 8+ on the open market. No way will he take that big of a discount.
If DW wouldn't trade him for Ovechkin and a 1st, I'm not sure why he would take less than Ovechkin makes.

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05-21-2012, 01:23 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Vaasa View Post
Well, I did. Patty brings more speed to the game, doesn't slow down play, is better defensively, and seems much more capable of playing the faster, skill-based, quick-passing attack game the Sharks need to adopt. In the long term, Patty is the better asset to retain IMO.
Faster is all you said that patty is and thornton isnt. Skill? Thornton has more skill than Patty. Quick Passing? Name me a better passer in the league not named Crosby or Sedin.....?

I would pick to move patty over thornton simply because thornton is the better overall player. There is room on any team for a guy like him, even a "speedy" team. Thornton can be realatively fast, and with his ability to pass can definitly add to a transition based system.

I love how everyone says he slows the game down and that that is a fault of his. Was it a fault of his when he is the leading scorer on the team every year minus two years where cheech had 1 more point(however he had more only because of thornton) and marleau one year which once again was heavily due to him playing with thornton?

I would keep thornton hands down because he makes EVERYONE else on his line better. Pavs scores highest goal total ever, first year on thorntons line, dont even need to bring up someone like cheech.

The problem is obviously the system, sure thornton slows things down, but thats because he can and still make the most amazing passes for his linemates to burry in the net. The system failed this year, it failed for everyone that tried to use a possesion game and not a hyper aggressive forechecking game with solid/great transitions and goaltending.

I felt super bad for the guy in the playoffs this year every time he would bust his butt behind the net for a puck to finally gain some room from the defender and move out to the faceoff circle looking for an open teammate in or near the crease only to find the ONE guy near the net getting smashed on and everyone else either 3-4 sets of skates away on the other side of the ice not in scoring position, or simply nothing at all to pass to, so he has to turn back and try all over again. When Joe Friggin Thornton does not think he has anywhere to pass, you know something aint working right.

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05-21-2012, 01:30 AM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dicdonya View Post
Faster is all you said that patty is and thornton isnt. Skill? Thornton has more skill than Patty. Quick Passing? Name me a better passer in the league not named Crosby or Sedin.....?

I would pick to move patty over thornton simply because thornton is the better overall player. There is room on any team for a guy like him, even a "speedy" team. Thornton can be realatively fast, and with his ability to pass can definitly add to a transition based system.

I love how everyone says he slows the game down and that that is a fault of his. Was it a fault of his when he is the leading scorer on the team every year minus two years where cheech had 1 more point(however he had more only because of thornton) and marleau one year which once again was heavily due to him playing with thornton?

I would keep thornton hands down because he makes EVERYONE else on his line better. Pavs scores highest goal total ever, first year on thorntons line, dont even need to bring up someone like cheech.

The problem is obviously the system, sure thornton slows things down, but thats because he can and still make the most amazing passes for his linemates to burry in the net. The system failed this year, it failed for everyone that tried to use a possesion game and not a hyper aggressive forechecking game with solid/great transitions and goaltending.

I felt super bad for the guy in the playoffs this year every time he would bust his butt behind the net for a puck to finally gain some room from the defender and move out to the faceoff circle looking for an open teammate in or near the crease only to find the ONE guy near the net getting smashed on and everyone else either 3-4 sets of skates away on the other side of the ice not in scoring position, or simply nothing at all to pass to, so he has to turn back and try all over again. When Joe Friggin Thornton does not think he has anywhere to pass, you know something aint working right.
technically it is only 1 year. cheechoo might of outscored thornton by 1 point as a shark, but thornton outscored cheechoo that year by 32 points in total between boston and san jose.

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05-21-2012, 08:45 AM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dicdonya View Post
Faster is all you said that patty is and thornton isnt. Skill? Thornton has more skill than Patty. Quick Passing? Name me a better passer in the league not named Crosby or Sedin.....?

I would pick to move patty over thornton simply because thornton is the better overall player. There is room on any team for a guy like him, even a "speedy" team. Thornton can be realatively fast, and with his ability to pass can definitly add to a transition based system.

I love how everyone says he slows the game down and that that is a fault of his. Was it a fault of his when he is the leading scorer on the team every year minus two years where cheech had 1 more point(however he had more only because of thornton) and marleau one year which once again was heavily due to him playing with thornton?

I would keep thornton hands down because he makes EVERYONE else on his line better. Pavs scores highest goal total ever, first year on thorntons line, dont even need to bring up someone like cheech.

The problem is obviously the system, sure thornton slows things down, but thats because he can and still make the most amazing passes for his linemates to burry in the net. The system failed this year, it failed for everyone that tried to use a possesion game and not a hyper aggressive forechecking game with solid/great transitions and goaltending.

I felt super bad for the guy in the playoffs this year every time he would bust his butt behind the net for a puck to finally gain some room from the defender and move out to the faceoff circle looking for an open teammate in or near the crease only to find the ONE guy near the net getting smashed on and everyone else either 3-4 sets of skates away on the other side of the ice not in scoring position, or simply nothing at all to pass to, so he has to turn back and try all over again. When Joe Friggin Thornton does not think he has anywhere to pass, you know something aint working right.
Thornton definitely has more overall skill but to say he's a quick passer is just not accurate. Him, Boyle, and Clowe have a very bad habit of slowing up the play, dusting the puck off, and then try to thread a needle. That doesn't work. You can't spend your time looking around with the puck thinking about what you're going to do. The game at this point is where you always need to be in motion and when you pull up and stop, you kill your offense and let their defense set up.

You can't change the way you want to play when someone like Thornton is still out there managing the game the way he wants to. You can't really have an up-tempo team because he will always be around the puck and slow it down.

At the end of the day, Thornton's problems are every bit as a concern as any other individual's problem as it relates to the team. He slows the game down too much. He doesn't take personal responsibility when it comes to shooting the puck. He's often times careless with the puck. Those are real issues that contribute to the overall problem that this team has. He's not the only one and he's probably not the biggest problem right now but these issues are definitely arguable that it is a team killer at the end of the day. To me, if the guy that has the puck the most on his stick is a guy that refuses to shoot the puck, the team is screwed. Anze Kopitar is exactly what Joe Thornton should have been seven years ago when we got him.

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Old
05-21-2012, 09:43 AM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shark Fin Soup View Post
Marleau sucks. I'd rather have Wallin making 7 mill on this team than Marleau. Get him off the team.



Am I trolling correctly?

Yup

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Old
05-21-2012, 10:07 AM
  #89
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I picked Marleau for only one reason. I am leaning in favor of a mini-rebuild and if I was going to keep one of the two-of them through that process it's Marleau because he better fits with the type of strategy I would prefer to see a rebuilt team play.

Realistically, if we are rebuilding, I'd trade them both. If it's just a 'who is more important to the team' question, then it's JT.

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05-21-2012, 12:19 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by KingKopitar11 View Post
There is a poll about this? Doesn't Marleau coast a lot? Get rid of him.
edit**8 NVM


Oh, and I'd keep Tinman, best player on team...


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05-23-2012, 09:09 AM
  #91
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If only one could vote neither.

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05-25-2012, 09:09 AM
  #92
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Whats clear to me is the team has another year of a potential window. We still have players growing in their roles like Vlasic, Burns, Pavelski, Couture, Braun, Demers, and Niemi. But that list is also part of the problem in that its defense heavy.

If we did nothing except fix the PK, we would have been much higher in the standings so an argument can be made to change the assistants to those with more credentials with defense and the PK. But the offense isn't getting younger and unless we want to have a hard rebuild, we are going to have to move some pieces now to get a little faster and younger.

Looking at the play of those who went by the Sharks in the P/O's, whats obvious is interference has reached a new level of tolerance and our forecheck is abysmal. That raises the premium for speed and puck-handling and given that, one can easily suggest Marleau is the one to keep and Thornton the one to go.

But the reality is neither gets at the need. Thornton is a better stick handler, better at recovery and makes players around him better. Patty is a better skater, faster, and has a lightning trigger in front of the net. Thornton lacks speed and is a better defender, Patty lacks puck handling ability and is a better shooter. So what to do?

In my thinking, the trade is Boyle. Where is speed needed most? Coming up the ice. Boyle is getting progressively slower with moving up ice allowing teams to be totally set. He is being passed by as a top defenseman on our team by Burns and Vlasic. But he can still log minutes and as a puck carrier and an Assistant Captain, will command good value in a trade still. Further, we have the depth on defense.

If I had to, I'd move Patty over Thornton but to me neither is worthy of building a team around at this stage. They are top paid players but not having the impact needed to get the team into the SC. Marleau is a first line wing or a second line centre. I'd prefer Pavelski back at second line centre simply because he is the best 2-way centre we have and has better vision versus Patty. Plus ... he is clutch when needed, moreso than any other player on the team.

If we don't move someone of the top paid players off the team this year, we will have a hard rebuild. But of Boyle, Thornton, and Patty - Its Boyle who is the most easily replaceable now with the growth in defense and he was definitely more of the speed problem coming up ice versus Marleau or Thornton. Move him and build in some faster men who will forecheck, fix the PK and we have a shot this next year.

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05-25-2012, 10:03 AM
  #93
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I understand the argument of people who chose Marleau, you want to start the rebuild. If we were rebuilding, Thornton should still be untouchable because he is the kind of player to build around because he makes everyone around him better. If we were to start getting young talent, a playmaker like Jumbo is exactly who they should start learning from.

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05-25-2012, 10:21 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by JayP812 View Post
I understand the argument of people who chose Marleau, you want to start the rebuild. If we were rebuilding, Thornton should still be untouchable because he is the kind of player to build around because he makes everyone around him better. If we were to start getting young talent, a playmaker like Jumbo is exactly who they should start learning from.
If we rebuild I do not want to build around Thornton. The kind of hockey he plays is becoming less effective in the modern NHL and is a big part of our issues. I like JT, but he slows the game down too much and coaches have figured out how to combat that too well. Sharks need to become faster, better on the transition, better on the rush, and Marleau fits that much better than JT.

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05-25-2012, 12:10 PM
  #95
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I understand the argument of people who chose Marleau, you want to start the rebuild. If we were rebuilding, Thornton should still be untouchable because he is the kind of player to build around because he makes everyone around him better. If we were to start getting young talent, a playmaker like Jumbo is exactly who they should start learning from.
Watch the Rangers series and the Rangers offense to see the Sharks problem. They are too slow coming up the ice unless it is on transition off d zone blocks. Some exits have all 3 forwards on the same side like the Sharks. Outlets are conservative, like the Sharks. NJ is running over them in the neutral zone and being careful not to have point shots blocked (they don't have much in blueline triggers anyway). Slow play is a killer, JT contributes a lot to that and it is becoming more pronounced. It is hard to speed it up because it is a coach pleaser as it reduces turnovers (a lot in the case of the Rangers).

JT is almost a one-of-a-kind player. How many 6'4" guys come through with guerilla arms and passing accuracy like that of JT? You are talking maybe once a decade. It isn't something to be taught because his physical attributes contribute heavily to his advantage and there are few players with his physical attributes alone. That leaves mentoring out. Prior to this year, he had three miserable exit series in a row. That shoots down the killer instinct bit or, analogically, the captain rapidly bailing while the ship sinks.

Making others better is a crock in the hockey community. I can find arguments for and against JT and Marleau in that regard. A wash at best. A very weak argument. What I do find as JT is a premier playmaker is that he will keep the Sharks off the bottom of the standings and therefore out of top pick territory. Like Sundin in Toronto. Even as his career was fading, they still didn't bottom out in the standings. That is a reality that the Sharks will need to face. You could say they will be able to trade up spots for a #1 pick. But if the #1 is that good, will the team with that pick really be willing to trade it? More likely is that they would only be able to trade for that pick if the pick is in a lesser top pick year. When the Sharks want to finish the rebuild, they will have to let go of JT and it won't be good enough to do it at the deadline. They really need to crash hard.

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05-25-2012, 02:52 PM
  #96
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Watch the Rangers series and the Rangers offense to see the Sharks problem. They are too slow coming up the ice unless it is on transition off d zone blocks. Some exits have all 3 forwards on the same side like the Sharks. Outlets are conservative, like the Sharks. NJ is running over them in the neutral zone and being careful not to have point shots blocked (they don't have much in blueline triggers anyway). Slow play is a killer, JT contributes a lot to that and it is becoming more pronounced. It is hard to speed it up because it is a coach pleaser as it reduces turnovers (a lot in the case of the Rangers).

JT is almost a one-of-a-kind player. How many 6'4" guys come through with guerilla arms and passing accuracy like that of JT? You are talking maybe once a decade. It isn't something to be taught because his physical attributes contribute heavily to his advantage and there are few players with his physical attributes alone. That leaves mentoring out. Prior to this year, he had three miserable exit series in a row. That shoots down the killer instinct bit or, analogically, the captain rapidly bailing while the ship sinks.

Making others better is a crock in the hockey community. I can find arguments for and against JT and Marleau in that regard. A wash at best. A very weak argument. What I do find as JT is a premier playmaker is that he will keep the Sharks off the bottom of the standings and therefore out of top pick territory. Like Sundin in Toronto. Even as his career was fading, they still didn't bottom out in the standings. That is a reality that the Sharks will need to face. You could say they will be able to trade up spots for a #1 pick. But if the #1 is that good, will the team with that pick really be willing to trade it? More likely is that they would only be able to trade for that pick if the pick is in a lesser top pick year. When the Sharks want to finish the rebuild, they will have to let go of JT and it won't be good enough to do it at the deadline. They really need to crash hard.
But you picked the Rangers in 6

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05-25-2012, 03:05 PM
  #97
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But you picked the Rangers in 6
Torts went all conservative. I didn't see it until they were playing the Caps. I thought that he would have learned. I still think they have a chance. Just for chuckles, they are the anti-LW team left. Not big on real possession, more counterattack.

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06-04-2012, 01:58 AM
  #98
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I can't believe this is even a debate. Thornton is a future hall of famer(even without a cup ring) and Marleau isn't. I can understand the debate if Marleau was in his mid 20's and age was a factor in this discussion but they are both the same age. Thornton has 248 more points than Marleau while playing 40 fewer games. Thornton is a career +152 and Marleau only +22. Oh then there is that hart and Art Ross trophy Joe has on his resume also. Thornton only has 76 fewer assists than Marleau has points. Marleau 830 career points and Thornton 754 career assists.

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