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Spacek/Gill confirm Martin is garbage coach, Gauthier senile old man, Cunney a puppet

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Old
06-04-2012, 09:54 AM
  #501
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Thing is, ask any fan about their coach, and you'll get the same complaints: stifles offense, juggles lines to much, makes weird lines, underuses kids, relies too much on vets. It's almost a pattern. I think we'll see the same complaints about the next coach about this time next year.
Then maybe it's time we question the role of coaches in the NHL. The evidence is becoming overwhelming, with firing after firing, that NHL coaches cannot over more than 1-2 years manage their teams day to day, cannot inspire their players, do not improve team performance on the ice, and often create serious problems for organizations with 100 million dollar budgets.

Further, it is well known that Cup winning teams have again and again been taken over by the players, who run the team in the playoffs.

If I created one tenth of the problems with my staff as NHL coaches do, if my staff did not perform, as with most NHL coaches, if my staff were unhappy, as with most NHL coaches, well, in my office, with one tenth that budget, I would be gone in 5 seconds.

I'm not gone, I've been here 8 years, under huge pressure, just as loads of you guys have done a great job I'm sure.

The position of NHL coach needs to be reviewed. They're clowns mostly, they're not professional, and they can't do the job as defined. So get rid of the job.

If I was GM, I might consider not having a head coach at all.

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06-04-2012, 10:03 AM
  #502
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Dale Hunter says hello.
Have to agree -- Dale Hunter may very well have been worse than Cunneyworth.

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06-04-2012, 10:04 AM
  #503
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Then maybe it's time we question the role of coaches in the NHL. The evidence is becoming overwhelming, with firing after firing, that NHL coaches cannot over more than 1-2 years manage their teams day to day, cannot inspire their players, do not improve team performance on the ice, and often create serious problems for organizations with 100 million dollar budgets.

Further, it is well known that Cup winning teams have again and again been taken over by the players, who run the team in the playoffs.

If I created one tenth of the problems with my staff as NHL coaches do, if my staff did not perform, as with most NHL coaches, if my staff were unhappy, as with most NHL coaches, well, in my office, with one tenth that budget, I would be gone in 5 seconds.

I'm not gone, I've been here 8 years, under huge pressure, just as loads of you guys have done a great job I'm sure.

The position of NHL coach needs to be reviewed. They're clowns mostly, they're not professional, and they can't do the job as defined. So get rid of the job.

If I was GM, I might consider not having a head coach at all.
Coaches are extremely overrated. A good coach with a bad team will most likely have a losing record. A bad coach with a good team will have a winning record. Poor coaches have won cups, good coaches have not, ect ect.

I am more concerned about what Bergevin is going to give the coach to work with.

Even Scotty Bowman, largely considered the best coach of all time was fortunate to coach some pretty remarkable teams. I think Mario Tremblay could of won those cups.

Same thing with Joe Torre in baseball. I could of managed those 200million dollar payrolls to World Series titles too.

I'll use the example of diet and exercise, dieting being the roster, and coaching being the exercise. Diet/roster make up 90% or more, while coaching/exercise make up the other 10%.

As long as the coach isn't completely terrible we'll be fine.

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06-04-2012, 10:08 AM
  #504
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Then maybe it's time we question the role of coaches in the NHL. The evidence is becoming overwhelming, with firing after firing, that NHL coaches cannot over more than 1-2 years manage their teams day to day, cannot inspire their players, do not improve team performance on the ice, and often create serious problems for organizations with 100 million dollar budgets.

Further, it is well known that Cup winning teams have again and again been taken over by the players, who run the team in the playoffs.

If I created one tenth of the problems with my staff as NHL coaches do, if my staff did not perform, as with most NHL coaches, if my staff were unhappy, as with most NHL coaches, well, in my office, with one tenth that budget, I would be gone in 5 seconds.

I'm not gone, I've been here 8 years, under huge pressure, just as loads of you guys have done a great job I'm sure.

The position of NHL coach needs to be reviewed. They're clowns mostly, they're not professional, and they can't do the job as defined. So get rid of the job.

If I was GM, I might consider not having a head coach at all.
Interesting idea.... I'm sure some of the people that work for you have had the same thoughts. Luckily for you your boss sees the value in actually having someone be responsible for the performance of your "team". Otherwise the workers might decide to change their hours, or decide that their friend, who doesn't work very hard at all, but is a really nice guy should get all the best opportunity..... I won't continue.... but really.... having inmates run the asylum is not an answer. It's about picking the right coach for the right time and personnel.

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06-04-2012, 10:12 AM
  #505
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I'm pretty sure the thread title is satirical. Or at least I hope it is.

I like your posts and your rational approach, I agree with it. I just can't, in good conscience, think that Martin was the right coach for this small, speedy squad.

Gomez and Cammalleri all but dried up in his system.
Pleks was heavily overused.
A lot of the kids were underused or misused entirely.
He juggled lines as much, or more, than his predecessor.

And he never altered his approach, which seems reasonable as he was instilling a system which DID get better from season to season (as you assert, and can prove with 5on5 stats) but when the results don't come in and he doesn't change his system... what else is there to do?

Like those Keenan-type screaming coaches, Martin worked until he got tuned out and THAT is supported by Spacek and Gill's comments.
Well done

Come on guys, stop picking on MM, he brings a different perspective to the board, and he's passionate about the Habs. I don't always agree with him either, so what?

I like his rationality and he does not pick on other guys here. Can we all just relax and enjoy the differences, or does everyone have to agree all the time? Jeez.

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06-04-2012, 10:14 AM
  #506
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Interesting idea.... I'm sure some of the people that work for you have had the same thoughts. Luckily for you your boss sees the value in actually having someone be responsible for the performance of your "team". Otherwise the workers might decide to change their hours, or decide that their friend, who doesn't work very hard at all, but is a really nice guy should get all the best opportunity..... I won't continue.... but really.... having inmates run the asylum is not an answer. It's about picking the right coach for the right time and personnel.
Point taken. Not sure it would work either, but it's an idea whose time has come.

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06-04-2012, 10:26 AM
  #507
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Coaches are extremely overrated. A good coach with a bad team will most likely have a losing record. A bad coach with a good team will have a winning record. Poor coaches have won cups, good coaches have not, ect ect.

I am more concerned about what Bergevin is going to give the coach to work with.

Even Scotty Bowman, largely considered the best coach of all time was fortunate to coach some pretty remarkable teams. I think Mario Tremblay could of won those cups.

Same thing with Joe Torre in baseball. I could of managed those 200million dollar payrolls to World Series titles too.

I'll use the example of diet and exercise, dieting being the roster, and coaching being the exercise. Diet/roster make up 90% or more, while coaching/exercise make up the other 10%.

As long as the coach isn't completely terrible we'll be fine.
Finally, someone gets it. When patterns repeat again and again and again, finally you have to wonder at your assumptions, unless you are mad: The assumption being that the coach can help a mediocre team win.

They don't. And they often make good teams worse.

Pollock got Bowman the players, and he shut his mouth and let them play. End of.

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06-04-2012, 11:18 AM
  #508
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Coaches are like goalies. Truly elite ones are extremely rare but can have a big positive impact. Average ones are pretty much all the same and can be found fairly easily. Bad ones can really mess up a club that could otherwise do much better.

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06-04-2012, 11:23 AM
  #509
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Coaches are like goalies. Truly elite ones are extremely rare but can have a big positive impact. Average ones are pretty much all the same and can be found fairly easily. Bad ones can really mess up a club that could otherwise do much better.
that's absolutely right...

and Martin most certainly fell into the average group, which for an organization committed to excellence, was rightfully not good enough.

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06-04-2012, 11:38 AM
  #510
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Finally, someone gets it. When patterns repeat again and again and again, finally you have to wonder at your assumptions, unless you are mad: The assumption being that the coach can help a mediocre team win.

They don't. And they often make good teams worse.

Pollock got Bowman the players, and he shut his mouth and let them play. End of.
You are underestimating Bowman's contribution big time !

He was lucky to have the teams he had in Montreal, Detroit and Pittsburg but he was able to put all his star players omn the same page and motivate the hell out of his bottom liners.

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06-04-2012, 12:17 PM
  #511
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Coaches are like goalies. Truly elite ones are extremely rare but can have a big positive impact. Average ones are pretty much all the same and can be found fairly easily. Bad ones can really mess up a club that could otherwise do much better.
Can't agree more. That's why I'm glad to see Martin fired. He's messed up enough players along the way.

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06-04-2012, 12:32 PM
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Coaches are like goalies. Truly elite ones are extremely rare but can have a big positive impact. Average ones are pretty much all the same and can be found fairly easily. Bad ones can really mess up a club that could otherwise do much better.
Still, some elite coaches have a hard time to handle repetitive stupid questions from the journalists and all the distractions coming with the big markets like Montreal.. A guy like Jacques Lemaire is a good example..

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06-04-2012, 12:51 PM
  #513
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Still, some elite coaches have a hard time to handle repetitive stupid questions from the journalists and all the distractions coming with the big markets like Montreal.. A guy like Jacques Lemaire is a good example..
Lemaire is an innovator, and as much as I hate boring hockey, his teams are feared and (in NJD) dominant. All throughout his career Jacques Martin's teams were good but beatable. One's proactive the other is reactive.

Lemaire doesn't need to coach anymore though, he's won it all and he's getting old.

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06-04-2012, 01:34 PM
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Can't agree more. That's why I'm glad to see Martin fired. He's messed up enough players along the way.
Martin fit at least in the average category, and was probably closer to elite than anyone the Habs are likely to hire. It's appearing quite likely the Habs will hire someone in the "harmful" category.

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06-04-2012, 01:36 PM
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Still, some elite coaches have a hard time to handle repetitive stupid questions from the journalists and all the distractions coming with the big markets like Montreal.. A guy like Jacques Lemaire is a good example..
True, but relationship with the media is of no real bearing on a coach's work. Regardless of how much certain people in the industry think it is of paramount importance.

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06-04-2012, 02:20 PM
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True, but relationship with the media is of no real bearing on a coach's work. Regardless of how much certain people in the industry think it is of paramount importance.
Agreed. The media only focus on what they can affect: not much in particular.

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06-04-2012, 02:27 PM
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Martin fit at least in the average category, and was probably closer to elite than anyone the Habs are likely to hire. It's appearing quite likely the Habs will hire someone in the "harmful" category.
I don't agree with this. Hunter and Cunneyworth are the type of coaches to avoid. The only kind that can truly hurt you imo. Crawford/Therrien fall into the same as everyone else mold. nothing special, but shouldn't cost us games on their own.

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06-04-2012, 03:11 PM
  #518
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I don't agree with this. Hunter and Cunneyworth are the type of coaches to avoid. The only kind that can truly hurt you imo. Crawford/Therrien fall into the same as everyone else mold. nothing special, but shouldn't cost us games on their own.
Based on the data I've seen of their recent performances, both Therrien and Crawford are in the harmful-coach category, roughly on the Carbonneau level. Therrien is especially problematic in Therrien's case because -- notwithstanding his Finals run -- he managed to take a talented Penguins squad and make it Habs-level bad 5-on-5, something which stopped almost immediately when he was replaced by Blysma.

You probably will never be able to point at a game and say "the coach lost us this one", but their clubs were very weak in possession and chance exchange. Therrien could get away with it because he got good goaltending (with Fleury's injury in 2007-2008) and strong PP scoring... sound familiar?


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06-04-2012, 04:15 PM
  #519
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that's absolutely right...

and Martin most certainly fell into the average group, which for an organization committed to excellence, was rightfully not good enough.
Well if we're working with the goalie analogy, how much sense does it make to dump an average guy like say Craig Anderson when the guys you can get to immediately replace him are either probably not good (say Khabibulin) or completely unproven (lets say Jonathan Bernier). Losing the average guy isn't going to get you a Lunqvist or Rinne. An organization committed to excellence/competitiveness would stay with average until such a time as they can replace with better.

Its a real shame Boucher got poached so quickly because he could be that kind of replacement. On the other hand Montreal may be shooting themselves in the foot with the language policy because that largely means they are locked out of raiding other teams up and coming coaches in response to losing Boucher and Muller.

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06-04-2012, 04:47 PM
  #520
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Based on the data I've seen of their recent performances, both Therrien and Crawford are in the harmful-coach category, roughly on the Carbonneau level. Therrien is especially problematic in Therrien's case because -- notwithstanding his Finals run -- he managed to take a talented Penguins squad and make it Habs-level bad 5-on-5, something which stopped almost immediately when he was replaced by Blysma.

You probably will never be able to point at a game and say "the coach lost us this one", but their clubs were very weak in possession and chance exchange. Therrien could get away with it because he got good goaltending (with Fleury's injury in 2007-2008) and strong PP scoring... sound familiar?
I like to see this data, because frankly, I don't believe you. I think you are exaggerating and using your personal biases here to claim you have statistical analysis to support it. Forgive me, If I don't just take your word for it.

Therrien's message to the pens was being ignored and their effort on the ice deteriorated.

As far as Crawford goes both LA and Dallas improved under Crawford. We could do much worse.

I don't find Carbonneau horrible either. I would take all 3 over Cunneyworth/Hunter.

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Well if we're working with the goalie analogy, how much sense does it make to dump an average guy like say Craig Anderson when the guys you can get to immediately replace him are either probably not good (say Khabibulin) or completely unproven (lets say Jonathan Bernier). Losing the average guy isn't going to get you a Lunqvist or Rinne. An organization committed to excellence/competitiveness would stay with average until such a time as they can replace with better.

Its a real shame Boucher got poached so quickly because he could be that kind of replacement. On the other hand Montreal may be shooting themselves in the foot with the language policy because that largely means they are locked out of raiding other teams up and coming coaches in response to losing Boucher and Muller.
Not a Boucher fan at all. I don't regret him leaving even a little bit.

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06-04-2012, 05:43 PM
  #521
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Martin fit at least in the average category, and was probably closer to elite than anyone the Habs are likely to hire. It's appearing quite likely the Habs will hire someone in the "harmful" category.
A coach not having a plan, a system and telling his veterans to do what they want is not, in my opinion, worth being qualified as average. Don't take my word for it, ask Spacek and Gill...

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06-04-2012, 07:13 PM
  #522
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I like to see this data, because frankly, I don't believe you.
All right, first before I present the data, a bit of an explanation. These stats reflect the percentage of 5-on-5 goals, shots, and missed shots for versus against when the score is close (defined as tied, or within one goal in the first or second period). This is a narrow category, but it's highly correlated to scoring chances and avoids score effects due to teams changing the way they play when up or down big, or when they're up or down late.

What we have here is a good measure of the exchange of scoring chances,

These are, as always, from the invaluable behindthenet.ca site: http://behindthenet.ca/fenwick_2011....6&section=tied -- which helpfully provides more data (such as score-tied only data, home and road splits, and the like) if there's interest. This data is obtained straight from NHL official scoresheets.

Some stats then:
Therrien:
PIT 2007-2008: 46.51% (4th worst in the league)
On the subject of Therrien vs. Bylsma this is also very good reading, presenting splits between the two in 08-09: http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/20...ichel-therrien

Crawford
LAK 2007-2008: 45.10% (2nd-worst in league)
DAL 2009-2010: 48.41% (10th-worst in league)
DAL 2010-2011: 47.66% (8th-worst in league)

For comparison:
Carbonneau:
MTL 2007-2008: 47.11% (5th-worst in the league)
MTL 2008-2009: 46.91% (8th-worst in the league)

Martin
MTL 2009-2010: 46.07% (2nd-worst in the league, and the cause of much complaining by me)
MTL 2010-2011: 51.60% (11th-best in the league, and a huge turnaround that went largely unnoticed)

Cunneyworth
MTL 2011-2012: 46.81% (4th-worst in league, despite being strong early)

Obviously these have to be considered in light of the talent available to each coach, but that'd only make Therrien look worse.

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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
Therrien's message to the pens was being ignored and their effort on the ice deteriorated.
The 2007-2008 Penguins were essentially the 2007-2008 Habs with more talent. Habitually outplayed 5-on-5, great goaltending, some shooting luck, lots of PP scoring.

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As far as Crawford goes both LA and Dallas improved under Crawford. We could do much worse.
Crawford's LA and Dallas clubs were both bottom-tier clubs that were habitually outplayed.

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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
I don't find Carbonneau horrible either. I would take all 3 over Cunneyworth/Hunter.
Again, his Habs team relied on goaltending and unsustainable PP prowess to snow over a terrible 5-on-5 game.

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06-04-2012, 07:26 PM
  #523
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All right, first before I present the data, a bit of an explanation. These stats reflect the percentage of 5-on-5 goals, shots, and missed shots for versus against when the score is close (defined as tied, or within one goal in the first or second period). This is a narrow category, but it's highly correlated to scoring chances and avoids score effects due to teams changing the way they play when up or down big, or when they're up or down late.

What we have here is a good measure of the exchange of scoring chances,

These are, as always, from the invaluable behindthenet.ca site: http://behindthenet.ca/fenwick_2011....6&section=tied -- which helpfully provides more data (such as score-tied only data, home and road splits, and the like) if there's interest. This data is obtained straight from NHL official scoresheets.

Some stats then:
Therrien:
PIT 2007-2008: 46.51% (4th worst in the league)
On the subject of Therrien vs. Bylsma this is also very good reading, presenting splits between the two in 08-09: http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/20...ichel-therrien

Crawford
LAK 2007-2008: 45.10% (2nd-worst in league)
DAL 2009-2010: 48.41% (10th-worst in league)
DAL 2010-2011: 47.66% (8th-worst in league)

For comparison:
Carbonneau:
MTL 2007-2008: 47.11% (5th-worst in the league)
MTL 2008-2009: 46.91% (8th-worst in the league)

Martin
MTL 2009-2010: 46.07% (2nd-worst in the league, and the cause of much complaining by me)
MTL 2010-2011: 51.60% (11th-best in the league, and a huge turnaround that went largely unnoticed)

Cunneyworth
MTL 2011-2012: 46.81% (4th-worst in league, despite being strong early)

Obviously these have to be considered in light of the talent available to each coach, but that'd only make Therrien look worse.



The 2007-2008 Penguins were essentially the 2007-2008 Habs with more talent. Habitually outplayed 5-on-5, great goaltending, some shooting luck, lots of PP scoring.



Crawford's LA and Dallas clubs were both bottom-tier clubs that were habitually outplayed.



Again, his Habs team relied on goaltending and unsustainable PP prowess to snow over a terrible 5-on-5 game.
Thanks mathman, these are the type of posts I wish everyone would present. I must admit, my recollection and what presented here don't coincide well. It looks like I was wrong, but with Crawford at least, his ranking is a little more reflective of his team imo.

I am interested in reading the analysis more thoroughly, I appreciate the effort here at least.

Edit: I've read both links, I found the 2nd link there pensionplanpuppets especially helpful. Has me convinced we shouldn't hire Therrien, thanks mathman.


Last edited by habsfanatics: 06-04-2012 at 07:38 PM.
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06-04-2012, 09:15 PM
  #524
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
Thanks mathman, these are the type of posts I wish everyone would present. I must admit, my recollection and what presented here don't coincide well. It looks like I was wrong, but with Crawford at least, his ranking is a little more reflective of his team imo.

I am interested in reading the analysis more thoroughly, I appreciate the effort here at least.

Edit: I've read both links, I found the 2nd link there pensionplanpuppets especially helpful. Has me convinced we shouldn't hire Therrien, thanks mathman.
Not too many posters like to eat crow here. Plenty of them simply choose to ignore stats that go against their preconceived subjective opinion.

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06-04-2012, 10:48 PM
  #525
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Martin wasn't the worst coach in the world but I never liked him. The players hated playing for him and he was just way too stubborn. Glad he's gone.

I feel good about the new management and some of the young players we have. Hope and pray that we get a strong player 3rd overall because if we do, that's a really nice core to build with. It would be so nice to actually have an offensive star for once.

As for Gauthier... he's history. We can stop talking about him now.

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