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[PIT/WSH] Vokoun's rights for a '12 seventh rounder

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Old
06-04-2012, 05:55 PM
  #76
Monty
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I am not taking sides on the trade itself as I really don't have any strong feelings good or bad about this trade. But I did get curious about how several posters are viewing the value of a 7th round pick based on past 7th rounders who panned out. And that makes perfect sense. But another perspective I thought about in regard to the value of a 7th round pick was the following. The 7th round is the last round of the draft, and I assume the Pens pick is somewhere in the 20th to 25th pick in the 7th round, and if any draft eligible players are not picked by the end of the 7th round, then basically they are all free agents that any team, including the Caps, can sign. In other words, assuming the Pens pick is the 20th pick in the 7th round, and there will be a total of 210 players drafted (i.e, 30 teams x 7 rounds), then this pick will be approximately the 200 pick out of 210 players picked.

So essentially, isn't the value of the Pens 7th round pick in the draft to the Caps that after 199 other players are drafted, if the Caps think there is a draft eligible player out there that may get picked between 201 and 210, the Caps will be able to snag him with the Pens pick (just in case), because otherwise, the Caps will have just as much opportunity as the other teams after the last selection only ten more players away at player no. 210 to snag any remaining undrafted player - basically, undrafted, draft eligible player nos. 211 to infinity.

When I think of the value of this 7th rounder from that perspective, it doesn't seem like much value, without even considering the additional fact that it is a rare 7th rounder who does pan out.

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06-04-2012, 06:01 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by gordie View Post
Compared to Neuvirth and Holtby he is.
When you look at Fleury's elite sv% of .880 over the past three playoffs, that becomes obvious, right?

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06-04-2012, 06:17 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by DynamoAO View Post
And Pitt could have said, "lolz ok gearbox, we're trying to just give you something for a player who isn't going to re-sign with you. Masta Mario said we need to do something or the league is gonna stop giving us preferential treatment so we figured we'd make a splash with that former Predators goalie. Guess we will have to wait a month."

If we are playing the "have fun with hypothetical dialogue" game.
I'd rather not help Pittsburgh than get a 7th round pick.

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06-04-2012, 06:31 PM
  #79
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George was doing Vokoun a favor.

He doesn't have the intelligence to understand it might easily hurt the Caps in the regular season and playoffs.

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06-04-2012, 06:33 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Atlas View Post
George was doing Vokoun a favor.

He doesn't have the intelligence to understand it might easily hurt the Caps in the regular season and playoffs.
Or maybe he realizes Vokouns groin is done.

Plus imagine the possible locker room problems with Crosby having temper tantrums that his good buddy MAF isn't the #1 goalie?

GMGM could be doing some black ops.

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06-04-2012, 06:45 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Atlas View Post
George was doing Vokoun a favor.

He doesn't have the intelligence to understand it might easily hurt the Caps in the regular season and playoffs.
I'm shaking in my boots at a 36 year old backup goalie coming off a bad groin injury.

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06-04-2012, 07:19 PM
  #82
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The potential for the goaltending situation to cause problems in the locker room far outweighs the benefit of having Vokoun as the backup or even 1B goalie, in my opinion. It's not like they get to add Vokoun and Fleury together and ice a mecha-goalie. Only one of them can play at a time.

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06-04-2012, 07:25 PM
  #83
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Saw that on the Pens board. They still ****ing think Fleury is elite.
Have you been on the Pens Board? Fleury is everyone's favourite scape goat at the moment. At best, people blame our ****** defense but MAF doesn't get off easy either.

That said, as a Pens fan, I'm super pleased with this signing. Just like I was super pissed when you guys grabbed him last summer.

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06-04-2012, 07:28 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by sonsofcain View Post
The potential for the goaltending situation to cause problems in the locker room far outweighs the benefit of having Vokoun as the backup or even 1B goalie, in my opinion. It's not like they get to add Vokoun and Fleury together and ice a mecha-goalie. Only one of them can play at a time.
That's some wishful thinking. It's not like a team has never benefitted from having a good goaltending tandem.

Fleury is a team first guy. This is only going to be good for him to have a mentor.

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06-04-2012, 07:30 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by TravisUlrich View Post
That's some wishful thinking. It's not like a team has never benefitted from having a good goaltending tandem.

Fleury is a team first guy. This is only going to be good for him to have a mentor.
We'll see.

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06-04-2012, 08:35 PM
  #86
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Anyone who thinks this is a dumb/bad trade for the Caps is either new to hockey or making a lame trolling attempt.

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06-04-2012, 08:39 PM
  #87
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From 30 thoughts:
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8. George McPhee did Tomas Vokoun a real favour, since last year's free-agency period was not kind to the goalie. Two guys who know him very well jumped at the opportunity. Ray Shero was assistant GM in Nashville when Vokoun was there, while Randy Sexton, who is the Penguins' assistant director of amateur scouting, was Vokoun's GM in Florida. Marc-Andre Fleury averaged 65 games during the past four seasons, and Pittsburgh wants to get that down by about 10. Brent Johnson's attitude made him a great backup for almost three years. Unfortunately, his play slipped last season. You could see Dan Bylsma was uncertain about using him in the playoffs.
Sounds like the contract was basically done before the trade was even made, so it's really pretty much the same as if the Penguins signed him on July 1st, except the Capitals got a 7th round pick out of it.

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06-04-2012, 08:47 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by amjay13 View Post
Anyone who thinks this is a dumb/bad trade for the Caps is either new to hockey or making a lame trolling attempt.

Why?

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06-04-2012, 09:05 PM
  #89
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Why?


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06-04-2012, 09:06 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by amjay13 View Post
Anyone who thinks this is a dumb/bad trade for the Caps is either new to hockey or making a lame trolling attempt.
Well, it's as good as they could do now, but it just highlights the colossal fail that was not trading him at the deadline.

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06-04-2012, 09:22 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by californiacapsfan View Post
Well, it's as good as they could do now, but it just highlights the colossal fail that was not trading him at the deadline.
Not really. Not trading Wideman is really the one that sticks out as a failure. Trading Vokoun would have been a pretty debatable move given Neuvirth's and Holtby's (AHL) performance to that point.

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06-04-2012, 09:36 PM
  #92
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Caps get a 7th for a player they will make no effort to resign, and a hated rival gets a aged goalie with an ample 5 hole. Seems like win/win to me.

And I find it interesting to read some comments on the main board that say The Flower can learn from Vokoun, or Vokoun can teach The Flower. Vokoun and Neuvy are from the same friggin country and I was never left with the impression that Vokoun took Neuvy under his wing during last season. Just that Vokoun wanted to play everday and bristled when that wasn't the case.

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06-04-2012, 09:38 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by DynamoAO View Post
And Pitt could have said, "lolz ok gearbox, we're trying to just give you something for a player who isn't going to re-sign with you. Masta Mario said we need to do something or the league is gonna stop giving us preferential treatment so we figured we'd make a splash with that former Predators goalie. Guess we will have to wait a month."

If we are playing the "have fun with hypothetical dialogue" game.
not playing hypos, I am surprised you post in threads discussing 7th rounders

Ignoring how well Holtby did in limited time, finally getting a chance, was it still a wise move him to get a 35 year old goalie with seemingly obvious 5 hole issues, pinning maybe his best goalie in Hershey for another season? It certainly didnt work out for the best. All 3 goalies struggled. Both young G's probably scratching their head wondering why he was signed, and then TVo wondering why he was benched for the first game. Want to mess with the kids heads, just keep inking vets. On the cheap or overpay.

I for one didn't like hearing him talk up holtby one day, and then the next day inking TVo. I wanted to see Holtby a year ago and I wanted to see him when the playoffs started.


Last edited by RandyHolt: 06-04-2012 at 09:52 PM.
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06-04-2012, 09:48 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by WetHog View Post
Caps get a 7th for a player they will make no effort to resign, and a hated rival gets a aged goalie with an ample 5 hole. Seems like win/win to me.

And I find it interesting to read some comments on the main board that say The Flower can learn from Vokoun, or Vokoun can teach The Flower. Vokoun and Neuvy are from the same friggin country and I was never left with the impression that Vokoun took Neuvy under his wing during last season. Just that Vokoun wanted to play everday and bristled when that wasn't the case.
I think this might have changed since his groin injury. Vokoun might be realizing his window of being a starter has ended

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06-04-2012, 09:49 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by californiacapsfan View Post
Well, it's as good as they could do now, but it just highlights the colossal fail that was not trading him at the deadline.
Because we all knew Holtby was going to be a beast, right? Hindsight is 20/20, and it sure looks stupid to keep him now since Holtby started and did very well in the playoffs. But Holtby hadn't even been playing great in the AHL at that point and Neuvirth's struggles were well known all season. Vokoun seemed like our best option at the time, and it took him destroying his groin for Holtby to get a chance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WetHog View Post
Caps get a 7th for a player they will make no effort to resign, and a hated rival gets a aged goalie with an ample 5 hole. Seems like win/win to me.

And I find it interesting to read some comments on the main board that say The Flower can learn from Vokoun, or Vokoun can teach The Flower. Vokoun and Neuvy are from the same friggin country and I was never left with the impression that Vokoun took Neuvy under his wing during last season. Just that Vokoun wanted to play everday and bristled when that wasn't the case.
I still love at the Caps Convention last year when they pretty much forced Neuvy to say that he looked up to Vokoun because he was a countryman. It was the story the Caps were selling, but it was pretty obvious it wasn't the case.

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06-04-2012, 09:51 PM
  #96
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I for one didn't like hearing him talk up holtby one day, and then the next day inking TVo. I wanted to see Holtby a year ago and I wanted to see him when the playoffs started.
+1

I didn't like the Vokoun move from the moment it happened. I thought it sent the wrong message to Neuvy after Varley was shipped out, and based on Holtby's play in the playoffs, it seems clear it confined Holtby to another year in Hershey when he should of been pushing Neuvy for the top spot right out of the gates last year in training camp.

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06-04-2012, 10:37 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by sonsofcain View Post
Not really. Not trading Wideman is really the one that sticks out as a failure. Trading Vokoun would have been a pretty debatable move given Neuvirth's and Holtby's (AHL) performance to that point.
Yes, that was a massive mistake - unless GMGM plans to make the worse one and resign him. But I wanted Wideman, Vokoun, and Knuble traded. I'd even have been ok with Semin being traded if the return was strong.

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Originally Posted by Mystlyfe View Post
Because we all knew Holtby was going to be a beast, right? Hindsight is 20/20, and it sure looks stupid to keep him now since Holtby started and did very well in the playoffs. But Holtby hadn't even been playing great in the AHL at that point and Neuvirth's struggles were well known all season. Vokoun seemed like our best option at the time, and it took him destroying his groin for Holtby to get a chance.
It's not about Holtby; at least, not for me. I wanted Vokoun traded at the deadline because the team was obviously not a contender and he wasn't part of the future. They were in a position to use their UFAs to improve both the team and cap situation going forward. A 7th rounder doesn't do crap for this team and is only good because something is better than nothing (tho the difference between a 7th and nothing is hard to quantify). Just MHO.

Nothing that happened in the playoffs changed my feelings. I doubted they could beat NJ in a 7-game series and it was clear to me after the St. Louis series that LA was on a mission.

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06-05-2012, 08:07 AM
  #98
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Whether you were optimistic about the team or not, giving up as the deadline rolled around was never going to be an option. They could have spun selling off Wideman and bringing in someone else, for example, but trading their #1 goalie when they had every reason to believe they'd need him for the stretch run was never going to happen.

(And, to be clear, even if you have no chance at the Cup, making the playoffs carries huge value. You can't just say "no thanks" to that kind of revenue in a market like DC.)

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06-05-2012, 08:43 AM
  #99
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brs03 always providing balanced posts, is right.

Hindsight is 2020 about who we should have sold. If we had beaten the Rangers and made it to conf finals, would it have been dumb to sell Wideman? What if Green broke down, our best chance at a cup in 10 years, kundrateked away? We may not even had made it there without him, for all we know. Yes, as crazy as that sounds, Orlov may have done worse.

If it was dumb not to sell him perhaps it was dumber to acquire him in the first place.

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06-05-2012, 08:49 AM
  #100
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I mean, I would have been fully on board with selling Vokoun, Wideman, Semin, etc. and getting several good picks and a prospect or whatever, but I didn't think the team deserved to make the playoffs and I figured they'd only find a way to twist the knife at the end of the season and just barely miss.

But that feeling was motivated by spite and pessimism (a.k.a. being a Caps fan). Management can't/wouldn't look at it that way.

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