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Old
06-05-2012, 01:13 AM
  #101
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Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
JvR is all about the playoffs...just like briere. Give him a healthy playoffs before you consider doing something you will REGRET.
Just like we will regret not having a defender ready to take over when Timonen retires. If JVR can get us a player in a position of great need, I am fine with trading him.

You need to be more than just playoffs also. And 6 or so good playoff games doesnt make him a playoff stud.

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06-05-2012, 01:14 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by DumpyD View Post
JvR has until the trade deadline to prove he's not such a cupcake or else his career as a Flyer is over.
What's sad is, it seemed like he was getting his stride back right before he got injured this season.

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06-05-2012, 02:06 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Just like we will regret not having a defender ready to take over when Timonen retires. If JVR can get us a player in a position of great need, I am fine with trading him.

You need to be more than just playoffs also. And 6 or so good playoff games doesnt make him a playoff stud.
hes also been a playoff stud in juniors/wjc not just at the NHL level (although that was UNREAL)

Also, we wont get fair value for him.. Do you really want luke schenn

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06-05-2012, 03:13 AM
  #104
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Giroux, JVR, Voracek, Schenn, Couturier...

These are guys with a track record of stepping up even more when the games matter more.

If you can defend Briere's contract, you can defend a guaranteed roster spot on this organization for all five of them as long as they continue to perform in the postseason.

I'm less pleased with Read and Simmonds in the playoffs.

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06-05-2012, 06:47 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Just like we will regret not having a defender ready to take over when Timonen retires. If JVR can get us a player in a position of great need, I am fine with trading him.

You need to be more than just playoffs also. And 6 or so good playoff games doesnt make him a playoff stud.
Can you remember who scored the first goal, 3-0 down against the bruins in game 7?

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06-05-2012, 07:52 AM
  #106
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Hmm, that's exactly the point. JVR, for the past 3 years, has been pretty much invisible except for maybe 10-20 games. Voracek does other things for the team also. He can fill in on the pk, and doesnt look out of place on the first pairing PP. If we are allowed to compare the two, then Voracek is allowed to have a pass for his play the past few seasons like JVR has.

Honestly I think JVR will be 50-60 point player and nothing really more. The thing he needs to do is to STOP being invisible. There are many players out there with skill but can't but it together and look invisible.
I think the point is more along the lines of he's 23 years old. He was poised to take a big step forward this year, but was riddled with injuries. He's been invisible for long stretches in his previous years, but he was also not even 23 years old yet. People have been unfairly impatient with him.

The problem with Jvr's game to this point is that he doesn't play defense. If he was a solid two-way player then he would be Voracek. People would probably still hate him though because he was the #2 pick, and people that come from other organizations get treated better in this town. Cole Hamels, who was the main reason for the only championship in this town in 20 some years, has been booed. That would never happen to Halladay.

Also, if he's a 60 point player, and half of them are goals, he'd be Bobby Ryan, who everyone seems to love.

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06-05-2012, 07:58 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
That isn't true

Look no further then Patrick Sharp at 25 to see that is false

Sharp at 25 was 20 goal + 15 assist guy with Hawks ,, Now he is good for around 30+ goals and 70 pts
One example just makes Sharp an outlier, not a norm.

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06-05-2012, 08:09 AM
  #108
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There are many examples of players not developing fully untill 25-26 years old. I don't think people understand that not everyone is a Crosby or Ovechkin in terms of playing at 19-20 years old.

Hell, I remember people calling Stamkos a bust when he didn't put up 100 points in his first 45 games in the NHL.

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06-05-2012, 10:20 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
Its such a tough thing to calculate at this point, theres really no point in getting in a fuss over it. But I think we both agree, wait and see is the proper approach for the organization. No one will overpay for him at this point, and hes a safe bet (with a great deal of upside)
I think we agree, except I don't see him as a safe bet. I really like JvR, but he needs to show more than what he has so far. I definitely agree that this is the wrong time to trade him though, no reason to sell when his value is low (I imagine it is fairly low at this point in time at least, compared to what it has been and can be if he has a bounce back year).

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Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
That isn't true

Look no further then Patrick Sharp at 25 to see that is false

Sharp at 25 was 20 goal + 15 assist guy with Hawks ,, Now he is good for around 30+ goals and 70 pts
And Mike Knuble didn't begin to score on an NHL level until he was 30. That doesn't mean that that is the norm though. It's of course a bit special with a guy like Read who was a kind of old rookie. He might still become a significantly better player, but we can't expect the same development as he might have had if he was 21 years old.

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You've been waiting for 5 years when he's been in the league for 3? Jvr had 11 goals and 24 points in 43 games, while being injured for that entire time. He was virtually invisible this year, and much of that was due to injuries.

He was on pace for 21 goals and 46 points over 82 games...while being injured and invisible. Voracek had 18 goals and 49 points while being one of everyone's favorite players. They're about the same age, their production per game is about the same, and Jvr was, again, injured and invisible this year. So...you starting to see where I'm going with this?

Basically Jvr gets an inordinate amount of hate. If healthy, he will out perform his contract next year.
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I think the point is more along the lines of he's 23 years old. He was poised to take a big step forward this year, but was riddled with injuries. He's been invisible for long stretches in his previous years, but he was also not even 23 years old yet. People have been unfairly impatient with him.

The problem with Jvr's game to this point is that he doesn't play defense. If he was a solid two-way player then he would be Voracek. People would probably still hate him though because he was the #2 pick, and people that come from other organizations get treated better in this town. Cole Hamels, who was the main reason for the only championship in this town in 20 some years, has been booed. That would never happen to Halladay.

Also, if he's a 60 point player, and half of them are goals, he'd be Bobby Ryan, who everyone seems to love.
I would agree with these posts. The injuries he had this season weren't some nagging little injuries that just limited his play, they were some serious ones and it really shouldn't be held against him that he didn't up his production.

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06-05-2012, 11:08 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
There are many examples of players not developing fully untill 25-26 years old. I don't think people understand that not everyone is a Crosby or Ovechkin in terms of playing at 19-20 years old.

Hell, I remember people calling Stamkos a bust when he didn't put up 100 points in his first 45 games in the NHL.
I agree - and with power forwards it takes even longer. We need to see what he can do with a full year without injuries, assuming that is possible. If we could get a decent defenseman for him, I'd be OK with it. Otherwise, they need to be patient, which really isn't a strong point of this organization or city.

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06-05-2012, 11:18 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
Hey, I want JVR to succeed. I watch him and I see a talented player, but I also see a player that has great difficulties putting the entire package together. There's no consistency in his game. I hope that after his off season work he's getting done, he comes into camp in the best shape of his career and he's motivated to prove everyone wrong.

But I look at last season after the Carter and Richards trades were made and he was basically given a top line spot. He came to camp injured and that was it. Why he didn't get his hip operated on then is beyond me. With that being said, I think he's got to start feeling some heat from the organization. I hope that heat gets him rolling and he goes on a tear. But I'm not getting my hopes up. He's got to earn top billing and he's got to start doing what great players do - be able to play at a consistently high level and do so consistently, not every three or four games.

I take a look at a guy like Giroux and from day one, he had that drive that he wanted to be great and that he wanted to be "the man" so to speak. I don't see that from JVR. I see a guy who just wants to be one of "the guys". That's the big difference.
Word for ****ing word. Well said.

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06-05-2012, 11:26 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
I think the point is more along the lines of he's 23 years old. He was poised to take a big step forward this year, but was riddled with injuries. He's been invisible for long stretches in his previous years, but he was also not even 23 years old yet. People have been unfairly impatient with him.

The problem with Jvr's game to this point is that he doesn't play defense. If he was a solid two-way player then he would be Voracek. People would probably still hate him though because he was the #2 pick, and people that come from other organizations get treated better in this town. Cole Hamels, who was the main reason for the only championship in this town in 20 some years, has been booed. That would never happen to Halladay.

Also, if he's a 60 point player, and half of them are goals, he'd be Bobby Ryan, who everyone seems to love.
very good post. I think we can all agree that JvR can give more on the backcheck. If he does, he will be a very complete player..he is SO FAST for someone his size.

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06-06-2012, 10:42 AM
  #113
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JVR is a player that would not be missed on this team
he's a overrated floater
trade him for a draft pick or two OR get a decent defenseman (or both)
seeing richards in L.A. is still weird for me
seeing JVR somewhere else wouldn't be

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06-06-2012, 03:04 PM
  #114
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Though JvR is the subject of constant scrutiny and there certainly positives to both sides of the argument to keeping or trading him, he is an asset that has yet to prove what he can do at the NHL level.

Prospects take time and JvR has shown us he can perform when healthy. 15-20-35 in his first season playing on the 3rd line and 21-19-40 in his second season playing on the third line with a shooting % hovering above league average. Before injury, he was on pace for 25-25-50. Why on earth would you move a guy performing like this at age 22, now 23?

Take Montreal for example. Pacioretty did nothing to impress anyone at the NHL level in his first 2 seasons (albeit partial). He had a putrid shooting % and less than stellar numbers. In his first "full" season (season 3), developed a shot, had a 12.5 shooting % before being sidelined by Chara. Now this year, 11-12, dude explodes for 33-32-65 in 79G playing with the 5'7" Desharnais and the above-average, just OK, Erik Cole.

JvR will do damage in the NHL and though we may get decent return (see Luke Schenn), it would be a shame to see him thrive elsewhere. Picture JvR-Giroux-Voracek in the future. Nightmare matchup against that skill/size.

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06-06-2012, 04:21 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by jweiner View Post
Though JvR is the subject of constant scrutiny and there certainly positives to both sides of the argument to keeping or trading him, he is an asset that has yet to prove what he can do at the NHL level.

Prospects take time and JvR has shown us he can perform when healthy. 15-20-35 in his first season playing on the 3rd line and 21-19-40 in his second season playing on the third line with a shooting % hovering above league average. Before injury, he was on pace for 25-25-50. Why on earth would you move a guy performing like this at age 22, now 23?

Take Montreal for example. Pacioretty did nothing to impress anyone at the NHL level in his first 2 seasons (albeit partial). He had a putrid shooting % and less than stellar numbers. In his first "full" season (season 3), developed a shot, had a 12.5 shooting % before being sidelined by Chara. Now this year, 11-12, dude explodes for 33-32-65 in 79G playing with the 5'7" Desharnais and the above-average, just OK, Erik Cole.

JvR will do damage in the NHL and though we may get decent return (see Luke Schenn), it would be a shame to see him thrive elsewhere. Picture JvR-Giroux-Voracek in the future. Nightmare matchup against that skill/size + speed.
Fixed for you

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Old
06-06-2012, 04:34 PM
  #116
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JvR is the type of player, at least at this point, that you don't seek to trade, but if people call and offer you something, you listen. If I'm Homer I'm not putting out the message that JVR is on the block. But if someone calls offering a young defender (or hell even a young forward or some kind of package deal), I'd listen. In other words, I have no problem if they trade him for a good return, or if he is a career Flyers. He is expendable, IMO, but doesn't NEED to be dealt.

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06-06-2012, 05:24 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
hes also been a playoff stud in juniors/wjc not just at the NHL level (although that was UNREAL)

Also, we wont get fair value for him.. Do you really want luke schenn
Kyle Turris, who hasnt done anything in his NHL career, was able to grab a 2nd and a solid bluechip defender. JVR would fetch more.

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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
Can you remember who scored the first goal, 3-0 down against the bruins in game 7?

Haha. I love how one or two things makes a player a fan for life with some people. Honestly, so what? Remember when Couturier shutdown Malkin as a 19 yr old? Remember when Giroux carried the team offensively all season long? I can keep going on and on and on. One thing (or in JVR's case, a handul of games) doesnt make a player. He needs to be better. Thats a fact. If you are ok with his play, you have some low standards.

There are holes on this team that needs to be filled and JVR has some solid value to fill them. If a team comes in offering a bluechip defender of some sort for JVR, I think long and hard. I dont say hell no like some here would.


Also how does having 8 or so good playoff games out of 39 make you a playoff stud?

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06-06-2012, 05:42 PM
  #118
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Kyle Turris, who hasnt done anything in his NHL career, was able to grab a 2nd and a solid bluechip defender. JVR would fetch more.




Haha. I love how one or two things makes a player a fan for life with some people. Honestly, so what? Remember when Couturier shutdown Malkin as a 19 yr old? Remember when Giroux carried the team offensively all season long? I can keep going on and on and on. One thing (or in JVR's case, a handul of games) doesnt make a player. He needs to be better. Thats a fact. If you are ok with his play, you have some low standards.

There are holes on this team that needs to be filled and JVR has some solid value to fill them. If a team comes in offering a bluechip defender of some sort for JVR, I think long and hard. I dont say hell no like some here would.


Also how does having 8 or so good playoff games out of 39 make you a playoff stud?
I love the fact that because he didn't outshine every other player on the ice in the play-offs they aren't considered good games. How many play-off games were played in his rookie season. I guess thinking the same about Richards isn't being hypocritical though is it?

I love the way that you can't understand why people think that he holds a great deal of value. Then again, you probably think that Bryz is the worst goaltender in the league, That Coburn isn't worth his Salary, that Giroux was a bust after spending some time in the AHL, that Schenn is going to be a bust and we need to trade him, That Hartnell should have been traded in the first 5 games of the season.

Philly fans are notoriously fickle. The what have you done for me lately gig has ensured that the flyers haven't won a cup in 30+ years. I'm glad to see that homer seems to be taking a different route lately and that they are finally willing to build the right way. You don't win trading players of JVR's age for proven vets.

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06-06-2012, 05:56 PM
  #119
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I love the fact that because he didn't outshine every other player on the ice in the play-offs they aren't considered good games. How many play-off games were played in his rookie season. I guess thinking the same about Richards isn't being hypocritical though is it?

I love the way that you can't understand why people think that he holds a great deal of value. Then again, you probably think that Bryz is the worst goaltender in the league, That Coburn isn't worth his Salary, that Giroux was a bust after spending some time in the AHL, that Schenn is going to be a bust and we need to trade him, That Hartnell should have been traded in the first 5 games of the season.

Philly fans are notoriously fickle. The what have you done for me lately gig has ensured that the flyers haven't won a cup in 30+ years. I'm glad to see that homer seems to be taking a different route lately and that they are finally willing to build the right way. You don't win trading players of JVR's age for proven vets.
Well in JVR case, its honestly "what have you done". Like honestly, can you tell me with a straight face you are sincerely happy with how JVR has been so far? Like truthfully?

There are many views that people take among players. It seems that we are different. If a player doesnt play well, I critize him for it and expect better. You seem to say its ok since their young. Bryzgalov didnt have a good season. I expect better. Seems that you say he gets a pass since he had good seasons before. Never said anything about trading Schenn, Coburn or even Bryz for that matter.

Shafer said JVR is a playoff stud (or along those lines). What defines a stud in the playoffs? Where does the line between Giroux's playoff stud and JVR's playoff stud begin and end? Fine, you want to take out his rookie season thats fine (we dont take out Giroux's rookie season when talking about playoff stud but thats ok). So that means in 18 games he had what, 6 good games? How does that define a playoff stud?

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06-06-2012, 06:04 PM
  #120
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Well in JVR case, its honestly "what have you done". Like honestly, can you tell me with a straight face you are sincerely happy with how JVR has been so far? Like truthfully?

There are many views that people take among players. It seems that we are different. If a player doesnt play well, I critize him for it and expect better. You seem to say its ok since their young. Bryzgalov didnt have a good season. I expect better. Seems that you say he gets a pass since he had good seasons before. Never said anything about trading Schenn, Coburn or even Bryz for that matter.

Shafer said JVR is a playoff stud (or along those lines). What defines a stud in the playoffs? Where does the line between Giroux's playoff stud and JVR's playoff stud begin and end? Fine, you want to take out his rookie season thats fine (we dont take out Giroux's rookie season when talking about playoff stud but thats ok). So that means in 18 games he had what, 6 good games? How does that define a playoff stud?
I think exactly how you should think at this point in regards too JVR.

This was his breakout year and he got smashed with injuries. There's nothing he could do about it. What exactly did you expect him to do with the list of problems he had this year. Why do you keep putting words in peoples mouths? it's getting really annoying. Where did I say that Bryz got a free pass?

Bryz was exceptional when we needed him to be. After the break and down the stretch. He showed he was the keeper that the flyers thought they signed. You are damn right i'm going to write off the first 3-4 months. I mean who has heard of a player struggling on a new team for the first half of the season eh? Thats just ****ing crazy talk.

I like how you gave Richards a "free pass" last year when he stunk the joint up. How about Briere this season, He got a free pass too right, because he was a -13 in the play-offs? How about that Pronger guy, man he sucks, he didn't play the whole year.

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06-06-2012, 06:12 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
I think exactly how you should think at this point in regards too JVR.

This was his breakout year and he got smashed with injuries. There's nothing he could do about it. What exactly did you expect him to do with the list of problems he had this year. Why do you keep putting words in peoples mouths? it's getting really annoying. Where did I say that Bryz got a free pass?

Bryz was exceptional when we needed him to be. After the break and down the stretch. He showed he was the keeper that the flyers thought they signed. You are damn right i'm going to write off the first 3-4 months. I mean who has heard of a player struggling on a new team for the first half of the season eh? Thats just ****ing crazy talk.

I like how you gave Richards a "free pass" last year when he stunk the joint up. How about Briere this season, He got a free pass too right, because he was a -13 in the play-offs? How about that Pronger guy, man he sucks, he didn't play the whole year.
Sponge. We have been through this multiple times. You always get angry when people disagree with you. You say I put words in your mouth when you are the one throwing **** at the wall with Bryzgalov and Richards. Never defended Richards. Wasnt a super fan of his like some here and criticized him when he needed it (which wasnt well accepted either). See thats what I am talking about with Bryz! Exactly. You CANT just throw out random points to prove an argument. You just can't. You need the whole picture.

JVR is too young, he gets a pass. Bryz was new, he gets a pass. So according to this logic, every player that joins the team gets a few 5 months to do whatever they want.

Thats fine that JVR had injuries this year. I know that. Never said he didnt. That being said, when he DID PLAY THIS SEASON, other than the Chicago game, he didnt look that good. All I am saying is, he needs to be better next season (I honestly dont see how you can dispute this, other than saying he needs 4 more years to "mature"), and if a team came up to Homer this offseason and offered a defender with similar potential, I'd be fine with trading JVR.

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06-06-2012, 06:48 PM
  #122
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I still think a Hjalmarsson for JVR deal could benefit both sides

Put JVR on Toews/Kane line and move Sharp back to C

JVR-Toews-Kane
Saad-Sharp-Hossa

Hammer is only 25 and could fit into Flyers D pretty well IMO

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06-06-2012, 06:52 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
I still think a Hjalmarsson for JVR deal could benefit both sides

Put JVR on Toews/Kane line and move Sharp back to C

JVR-Toews-Kane
Saad-Sharp-Hossa

Hammer is only 25 and could fit into Flyers D pretty well IMO
We have a better Hjalmarsson in Coburn and a similar version in Grossmann.

Rather keep JVR.

EDIT: Not that I would trade JVR for a lesser Coburn anyway.


Last edited by CS: 06-06-2012 at 07:12 PM.
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06-06-2012, 07:00 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
I still think a Hjalmarsson for JVR deal could benefit both sides

Put JVR on Toews/Kane line and move Sharp back to C

JVR-Toews-Kane
Saad-Sharp-Hossa

Hammer is only 25 and could fit into Flyers D pretty well IMO
kind of laughable really.

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06-06-2012, 07:28 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
I still think a Hjalmarsson for JVR deal could benefit both sides

Put JVR on Toews/Kane line and move Sharp back to C

JVR-Toews-Kane
Saad-Sharp-Hossa

Hammer is only 25 and could fit into Flyers D pretty well IMO
JVR for Kane. We can restore the 07 draft back to what it was supposed to be.

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