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Kdka's Bob Pompeani to have sit down interview with Coach Bylsma on 6/4/12 at 6pm

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Old
06-05-2012, 07:34 AM
  #26
Captain Hook
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Bylsma and Shero may secretly hate Martin and Michalek's guts. I really doubt they do, but they have to pretend they like them even if they don't because you can't just come out and say "Well, these guys both suck and we plan on dumping their terrible contracts on another team".

I think it also shows that GM's and coaches don't overreact like fans do. One bad season has not changed Bylsma or Shero's opinion of those guys and I doubt it's changed many other GM's or coaches opinions of them. We can move Martin and/or Michalek because we have Despres, Morrow etc. waiting in the wings. If we didn't have those guys then we'd have to ride it out with M&M.

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06-05-2012, 08:52 AM
  #27
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Disco isn't going to throw any one player under the bus. If he did (even if he was justified in doing so as in Martin's case) he would lose the respect of the team as a whole. I think it's been shown also that he is a "player's coach" whether he says he is or not and whether Shero says he is or not... that makes it even less likely he'll call people out publicly.

Don't expect any interview from any Pittsburgh reporter to be anything but "meh" this summer. It will all be the same rehashed stuff spoken a different way.

The only thing that could cause me to lose some sleep is if we do something like trade Staal and keep Martin, because it would demonstrate a lack of priority and honest evaluation, IMHO. The only possible reason to trade Staal (unless everyone is lying about how happy he is) is money... and if that's the case, trading the player who had the best playoff and who still has the most upside, because he'll make slightly more money than the player with the worst playoff and least upside (i.e. Staal will probably make around $6M hit, and Martin is not going to change his game)... that would be... dumb.

I'm not too worried about it. It is possible we keep both, but if one is traded I think it's much likely to be Martin. Nobody, not even Ray Shero is going to look at those two guys and determine at roughly equivalent salaries, that Martin is the more valuable commodity. Especially given the fact that we have 3 talented D in the system who will compete for a roster spot in September. 5 if we don't trade Strait or Bortuzzo this summer.

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06-05-2012, 09:24 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
Disco isn't going to throw any one player under the bus. If he did (even if he was justified in doing so as in Martin's case) he would lose the respect of the team as a whole. I think it's been shown also that he is a "player's coach" whether he says he is or not and whether Shero says he is or not... that makes it even less likely he'll call people out publicly.

Don't expect any interview from any Pittsburgh reporter to be anything but "meh" this summer. It will all be the same rehashed stuff spoken a different way.

The only thing that could cause me to lose some sleep is if we do something like trade Staal and keep Martin, because it would demonstrate a lack of priority and honest evaluation, IMHO. The only possible reason to trade Staal (unless everyone is lying about how happy he is) is money... and if that's the case, trading the player who had the best playoff and who still has the most upside, because he'll make slightly more money than the player with the worst playoff and least upside (i.e. Staal will probably make around $6M hit, and Martin is not going to change his game)... that would be... dumb.

I'm not too worried about it. It is possible we keep both, but if one is traded I think it's much likely to be Martin. Nobody, not even Ray Shero is going to look at those two guys and determine at roughly equivalent salaries, that Martin is the more valuable commodity. Especially given the fact that we have 3 talented D in the system who will compete for a roster spot in September. 5 if we don't trade Strait or Bortuzzo this summer.
You cover everything I tend to believe also. I will also add, we don't get to see Martin in practice and in the room. There is no doubt he is a skilled guy, so them seeing him in practice so often may lessen the sting of the in game results....in some odd way. IE they see the potential, or what should be.

Key to me again is the quality and cost of replacements. It is simply bad GM'ing to not maximize every dollar on the roster. And, given that, PM is tough to swallow. ZM, and at times BO also. On the other hand Engo is an absolute steal. Now i understand you cant win with all engos, that isn't the point. Point is he plays above average 5/6th man D for a great rate. letang plays above his pay. We need to use these cheaper options to free up money to keep and build in areas where we don't have options in the system.

It is not to say i don't respect the guys here now and what they have done. But:

Letang
Brooks
Martin
Z
Nisky
Engo

Looks about as good to me as:

Letang
Brooks
Despres
Strait
Nisky
Engo

The second group isn't as proven sure. But, we have strong sample sizes to understand how their strengths could form a unit. It would also cost significantly less.

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Old
06-05-2012, 10:09 AM
  #29
UnderratedBrooks44
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Originally Posted by Funk311 View Post
You cover everything I tend to believe also. I will also add, we don't get to see Martin in practice and in the room. There is no doubt he is a skilled guy, so them seeing him in practice so often may lessen the sting of the in game results....in some odd way. IE they see the potential, or what should be.

Key to me again is the quality and cost of replacements. It is simply bad GM'ing to not maximize every dollar on the roster. And, given that, PM is tough to swallow. ZM, and at times BO also. On the other hand Engo is an absolute steal. Now i understand you cant win with all engos, that isn't the point. Point is he plays above average 5/6th man D for a great rate. letang plays above his pay. We need to use these cheaper options to free up money to keep and build in areas where we don't have options in the system.

It is not to say i don't respect the guys here now and what they have done. But:

Letang
Brooks
Martin
Z
Nisky
Engo

Looks about as good to me as:

Letang
Brooks
Despres
Strait
Nisky
Engo

The second group isn't as proven sure. But, we have strong sample sizes to understand how their strengths could form a unit. It would also cost significantly less.
I have no problem dumping Martin's ass but I think I would caution anyone wanting to get rid of Michalek too. I think it's a lot of turnover in one year and honestly, we're all THAT confident in these prospects? Don't get me wrong I REALLY like what I've seen from them and many around here know I'm a little too hard to please most of the time, but as solid as they were most of the time they were also part of that unit that crapped the bed at the end of the year against the Sens and Isles when the wheels fell off the defense.

I'm just saying lets temper our expectations a little here. Michalek is a good player and a definite top 4 guy through an 82 games seasons plus playoffs. We have absolutely no clue if any of those guys are ready for that yet. Playing well in spots is totally different than bringing it all season.

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Old
06-05-2012, 10:27 AM
  #30
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Funk: I don't disagree with you on Engo. In fact value-wise he's one of the more important players we have, because he has something in his game that even Orpik doesn't have and that's some face-to-face nasty. Every team needs a couple guys like that, without them being goons. Engo turned out to be a real steal for what he brings.

As for the others, we'd all like to see Martin go but in most draft years there would be at least as good a chance that two of Niskanen, Strait and Bortuzzo would go at or before the draft for picks. The question is, with this year's class supposedly being pretty weak on all fronts (other than goalies maybe), would Shero find any use in trading those guys for picks vs. trading them for other prospects or picks next year if the scouts like what they see in the next crop. I suppose we might also get a decent roster player for some combination but that seems unlikely.

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Old
06-05-2012, 10:36 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
Funk: I don't disagree with you on Engo. In fact value-wise he's one of the more important players we have, because he has something in his game that even Orpik doesn't have and that's some face-to-face nasty. Every team needs a couple guys like that, without them being goons. Engo turned out to be a real steal for what he brings.

As for the others, we'd all like to see Martin go but in most draft years there would be at least as good a chance that two of Niskanen, Strait and Bortuzzo would go at or before the draft for picks. The question is, with this year's class supposedly being pretty weak on all fronts (other than goalies maybe), would Shero find any use in trading those guys for picks vs. trading them for other prospects or picks next year if the scouts like what they see in the next crop. I suppose we might also get a decent roster player for some combination but that seems unlikely.
To me it's pointless to trade Strait or Bort for picks. Those guys aren't getting a 1st rounder and outside of that, it's a crapshoot that any of those picks even amounts to a prospect of their caliber. They need to be traded for equivalent offensive prospects, especially prospects that don't need to be waived. Otherwise you are entering a cycle when you spend a draft pick and years developing a guy just to rinse and repeat.

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Old
06-05-2012, 10:48 AM
  #32
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Yeah. I could see us getting rid of one of Martin/Michalek (likely Martin). Both would be unlikely.

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06-05-2012, 10:51 AM
  #33
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Don't know how anyone could be confident of Martin going forward. I watch the way LA forechecks and wonder if Martin would last more than 2 games before being taken out on a gurney.

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Old
06-05-2012, 11:11 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
Don't know how anyone could be confident of Martin going forward. I watch the way LA forechecks and wonder if Martin would last more than 2 games before being taken out on a gurney.
It sounds like an over-simplified argument but I think guys like Martin are going to disappear from this league eventually. If you are undersized for a D (as he is in this league), then you better either: a) have a great PP game; or b) have some nasty to your game. If you have neither and are merely a good skater / positional player, you're going to get steamrolled every playoff. I think the only way to get away with being that positional guy, is to be a bigger guy that can't be pushed around. Martin achieved Whitney-like levels of soffness this year at times. The guy has no fire at all IMO.

Z is at least a great shot blocker and will get a pass for his hip injury for now. Niskanen is too small also, but definitely has some offensive upside / PP upside and at least has some fight in his game as we saw a couple times this playoff.

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06-05-2012, 11:22 AM
  #35
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Basically when the rules tightened up post lockout it paved the way for guys like Martin to make hay. Now they're getting lax on contact and guys like that can't hack it nearly as much.

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06-05-2012, 11:24 AM
  #36
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Basically when the rules tightened up post lockout it paved the way for guys like Martin to make hay. Now they're getting lax on contact and guys like that can't hack it nearly as much.
Yah but most of those rules were to help puck carriers. He does that some in transition but I don't think Martin's failures this playoff have much to do with him getting reamed on penalty no-calls (obstruction, etc). He was just out of his element. He isn't built for a tough series against Philly or New York (for example). I still think Philly had another gear speed-wise we weren't expecting in the playoff and when they started pressuring our D, we got eaten alive and Martin was just one of the more obvious victims.

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06-05-2012, 01:26 PM
  #37
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It sounds like an over-simplified argument but I think guys like Martin are going to disappear from this league eventually. If you are undersized for a D (as he is in this league), then you better either: a) have a great PP game; or b) have some nasty to your game. If you have neither and are merely a good skater / positional player, you're going to get steamrolled every playoff. I think the only way to get away with being that positional guy, is to be a bigger guy that can't be pushed around. Martin achieved Whitney-like levels of soffness this year at times. The guy has no fire at all IMO.

Z is at least a great shot blocker and will get a pass for his hip injury for now. Niskanen is too small also, but definitely has some offensive upside / PP upside and at least has some fight in his game as we saw a couple times this playoff.
I don't think you have to be big at all. You just need to have the b*lls to stand in there and make the play even when you know you're going to get hit. Strait's about the same size and he was willing to be the first one back and take a hit to make a play. There were times Martin would completely give up on the play knowing he was going to get hit. Maybe that's the difference between a vet with a cushy contract and a rookie trying to make an impression, I don't know.

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06-05-2012, 02:16 PM
  #38
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The thing that bothers me is he dodged the question about if he should be blamed for the playoff slump the last 3 years.

It's all you, Dan. You need to do your job and switch things up. This isn't a team that's a 7/8 seed. You were considering the coach of the year nearly 12 months ago, act like it when it matters.

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06-05-2012, 04:13 PM
  #39
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Don't forget the eggs!
Martin can do three things well:
1. look like a lesbian - they don't really need a lesbian impersonator in the locker-room.
2. poke-check - has dropped off from elite to adequate
3. make scrambled eggs - with the new contract he signed James Neal can feed himself

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06-05-2012, 04:47 PM
  #40
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I have no problem dumping Martin's ass but I think I would caution anyone wanting to get rid of Michalek too. I think it's a lot of turnover in one year and honestly, we're all THAT confident in these prospects? Don't get me wrong I REALLY like what I've seen from them and many around here know I'm a little too hard to please most of the time, but as solid as they were most of the time they were also part of that unit that crapped the bed at the end of the year against the Sens and Isles when the wheels fell off the defense.

I'm just saying lets temper our expectations a little here. Michalek is a good player and a definite top 4 guy through an 82 games seasons plus playoffs. We have absolutely no clue if any of those guys are ready for that yet. Playing well in spots is totally different than bringing it all season.
I get caught in the absoluteness around here at times. That was so much of we should have these corps as it was just to raise the point of comparison. Either way, i think we need to make our drafts and money go further. It is only in that regard that I might be ok with losing Z. Z had a surgery right after the post season (or some medical procedure) so he could have been far less than 100% for awhile.

Its very delicate and not an easy call, but I tend to look at big picture themes and in that regard would like to see more ROI from some parts of our roster and player management.

I also think there would be significant growing pains at times with that much turnover. With Sid Geno Letang Neal and Staal i don't think we ever would be out of the top 8 though. So I would be willing to go through that pain to right the ship a bit when it comes to working the draft into the roster, and freeing up dollars to be in a better position long term.

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06-06-2012, 10:43 AM
  #41
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Don't know how anyone could be confident of Martin going forward. I watch the way LA forechecks and wonder if Martin would last more than 2 games before being taken out on a gurney.
Yup a lot of teams are doing that now and I actually like the Pens laying a beatdown on defenseman back when Rupper and Talbot where doing it.

Its funny to see the evolution of hockey. It goes from smaller defenseman that can get to pucks to forewards that can grind those defenseman down. I guess thew next phase is size with mobilty on D... which is why I want to keep a player like Orpik. I fully expect him to get back to normal after a down year coming off surgery.

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06-06-2012, 01:13 PM
  #42
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The fact that anyone expects Shero to publically trash a guy on his team is just stupid.

Even if Shero privately wants to punch Martin in his stupid face for being so bad he's not going to de-value his own asset by publicly acknowledging that he's fallen from grace.

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Old
06-06-2012, 03:30 PM
  #43
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Sorry, guys. Can't just post claims like that without some sort of backup. Slippery slope, etc. Thanks for understanding.

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06-06-2012, 03:56 PM
  #44
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nvm.

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