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The (heavily moderated) Fire Howson/Priest thread.

View Poll Results: Which of the following would you approve as owner?
Fire Priest/Howson immediately 60 58.25%
Fire Howson immediately/retain Priest for the next year 5 4.85%
Fire Priest immediately/retain Howson for the next year 29 28.16%
Something else 9 8.74%
Voters: 103. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
06-04-2012, 05:52 AM
  #301
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
I think you're overstating the importance of leadership at the expense of talent.
Actually the point is: To get the talent to build a successful team you need quality leadership - you need to draft well, do well in trades and the free-agent market, develop players well and have a coach who knows how to fit the puzzle together properly.

As for the man-games lost to injury in goal - that implies Mark Dekanich's string of injuries was the cause of the whole, awful season? This is a player who has played all of 50 minutes in the NHL.

With all due respect to his potential, I think we need to admit he was never expected to be the workhorse goaltender. His injuries actually gave Sanford a chance to come into his own, which was one of the few positive things to happen for the team.

(Quick vote, right this minute, assuming the two were under similar contracts: who would trade Sanford for Dekanich, one-for-one, right now?)

I'm an optimist by nature myself. But "too much blind faith, it will blind us."*


*From a really old Steppenwolf song.

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06-04-2012, 06:59 AM
  #302
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Originally Posted by TBJF View Post
Actually the point is: To get the talent to build a successful team you need quality leadership - you need to draft well, do well in trades and the free-agent market, develop players well and have a coach who knows how to fit the puzzle together properly.

As for the man-games lost to injury in goal - that implies Mark Dekanich's string of injuries was the cause of the whole, awful season? This is a player who has played all of 50 minutes in the NHL.

With all due respect to his potential, I think we need to admit he was never expected to be the workhorse goaltender. His injuries actually gave Sanford a chance to come into his own, which was one of the few positive things to happen for the team.

(Quick vote, right this minute, assuming the two were under similar contracts: who would trade Sanford for Dekanich, one-for-one, right now?)

I'm an optimist by nature myself. But "too much blind faith, it will blind us."*


*From a really old Steppenwolf song.
Agreed.


Granted, I don't follow the Preds that much, but I was wondering why, if there was this great belief that Dekanich was ready for regular NHL duty as a backup at least, why was a one-year, 500k contract the best he got? Is it because it was the only one that included a one-way clause? Nevermind the injuries, I'd like to know why this was the best deal he got at the time. We can say that blind faith was in Dekanich, but really, Howson had more blind faith in a Steve Mason revival, or else I think the Dekanich move, which I called risky at the time for that very reason (Mason crapping the bed and Dekanich thurst into an unfamiliar role), would not have been made.

I thought Sanford probably should have been billed as the bigger signing anyways at the time.


Last edited by KeithBWhittington: 06-04-2012 at 07:53 AM.
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06-04-2012, 12:41 PM
  #303
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Originally Posted by TBJF View Post
As for the man-games lost to injury in goal - that implies Mark Dekanich's string of injuries was the cause of the whole, awful season? This is a player who has played all of 50 minutes in the NHL.[/SIZE]
Not to mention that the other major contributor to the team's man games lost to injury was Radek Martinek.

In other words, we lost a guy who had not ever established himself at the NHL level and a guy who we knew upon acquisition might be lost at some point due to injury given his history. If I'm being told those were major pieces the absence of which prevented us from winning, then my response is that they shouldn't have been considered major pieces in the first place. Howson's inability to build a team and to create depth was the problem far more than injuries.

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06-04-2012, 01:24 PM
  #304
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KeithBWhittington View Post
Agreed.


Granted, I don't follow the Preds that much, but I was wondering why, if there was this great belief that Dekanich was ready for regular NHL duty as a backup at least, why was a one-year, 500k contract the best he got? Is it because it was the only one that included a one-way clause? Nevermind the injuries, I'd like to know why this was the best deal he got at the time. We can say that blind faith was in Dekanich, but really, Howson had more blind faith in a Steve Mason revival, or else I think the Dekanich move, which I called risky at the time for that very reason (Mason crapping the bed and Dekanich thurst into an unfamiliar role), would not have been made.

I thought Sanford probably should have been billed as the bigger signing anyways at the time.
The bolded was stated at the time of the signing as the reason why he came here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
Not to mention that the other major contributor to the team's man games lost to injury was Radek Martinek.
...followed closely by James Wisniewski.

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06-04-2012, 03:40 PM
  #305
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
The bolded was stated at the time of the signing as the reason why he came here.



...followed closely by James Wisniewski.
The defense, as a whole, missed many, many games. When Moore has the most, with 67, that is a problem.

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06-04-2012, 03:59 PM
  #306
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The defense, as a whole, missed many, many games. When Moore has the most, with 67, that is a problem.
I think with Wiz's style of play, you have to expect he is going to miss games.

Methot is a guy most are ready to move in the right deal--myself included. He was another one of the biggest contributors to our man games injured--more than Wiz.

So, what it all boils down to is the bulk of man games lost were not difference makers. This isn't like the playoff year when we lost Klesla for a significant period of time...and still made the playoffs. The idea that all the current squad (sans Nash, of course) needs is to be healthier is preposterous. What the team needs is depth so it can withstand injuries without playing a guy like Aaron Johnson. Something we still don't have after Howson's 5 years in charge. In fact, I'd argue we have moved backwards in this respect since the playoff year.

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06-04-2012, 04:20 PM
  #307
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Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
I think with Wiz's style of play, you have to expect he is going to miss games.
Well, then, why the hell were you so gung-ho to pick him up in the first place if he was such a frequently-injured non-difference maker to the point that this can be so casually dismissed?

Oh, he was quality depth? Then why does Radek Martinek not count as such, seeing as though this was a career low in games played this year?

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06-04-2012, 07:15 PM
  #308
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Originally Posted by TBJF View Post
As for the man-games lost to injury in goal - that implies Mark Dekanich's string of injuries was the cause of the whole, awful season? This is a player who has played all of 50 minutes in the NHL.
I don't remember addressing man-games lost in goal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KeithBWhittington View Post
Agreed.


Granted, I don't follow the Preds that much, but I was wondering why, if there was this great belief that Dekanich was ready for regular NHL duty as a backup at least, why was a one-year, 500k contract the best he got? Is it because it was the only one that included a one-way clause? Nevermind the injuries, I'd like to know why this was the best deal he got at the time. We can say that blind faith was in Dekanich, but really, Howson had more blind faith in a Steve Mason revival, or else I think the Dekanich move, which I called risky at the time for that very reason (Mason crapping the bed and Dekanich thurst into an unfamiliar role), would not have been made.

I thought Sanford probably should have been billed as the bigger signing anyways at the time.
What was the difference between Dekanich last year and Ben Bishop this year? They were in exactly the same boat, but one was "OMG we HAVE to get this guy!!!!" and the other was "who the hell is that and why do we want him?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
Not to mention that the other major contributor to the team's man games lost to injury was Radek Martinek.

In other words, we lost a guy who had not ever established himself at the NHL level and a guy who we knew upon acquisition might be lost at some point due to injury given his history. If I'm being told those were major pieces the absence of which prevented us from winning, then my response is that they shouldn't have been considered major pieces in the first place. Howson's inability to build a team and to create depth was the problem far more than injuries.
The biggest contributor was Kristian Huselius, who had very much established himself at the NHL level and who does not have any real injury history during his 10 years int he league.

Other major contributors were losing Wisniewski for 34 games and Methot for 36, both of whom are established NHLers and certainly would have kept Aaron Johnson in the AHL and not in the active lineup.

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06-04-2012, 07:52 PM
  #309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
The biggest contributor was Kristian Huselius, who had very much established himself at the NHL level and who does not have any real injury history during his 10 years int he league.

Other major contributors were losing Wisniewski for 34 games and Methot for 36, both of whom are established NHLers and certainly would have kept Aaron Johnson in the AHL and not in the active lineup.
You fail on the Huselius count. We've gone over this: (1) he had just come off another injury that cost him half of the prior season (2) typically as you get older you have more injuries, so his history when he was 25 is less relevant than prior years and, most importantly, (3) he was injured prior to the season and Scott Howson replaced him with Vinny Prospal. Howson was quite content to go into the season without Vinny Prospal...until Huselius went down. The most that was ever hoped with regards to Huselius was that he'd come in for a late season boost. As it was, the season was done before Juice was scheduled to return.

I'm not sure I buy that the incremental difference between Marc Methot and Aaron Johnson on the bottom pairing had a significant impact on what happened last season.

Which leaves us with...James Wisniewski, who most on here were ready to run out of town before Howson acquired Jack Johnson. Since I suggested Howson acquire Johnson over a year before he did and I was adamantly in favor of acquiring James Wisniewski, all I can say is, I wish Howson would have listened to my advice sooner.

In all seriousness, where this leaves us is this:

1. Martinek's games lost due to injury were forseeable given his prior head injuries. Heck, I admitted as much when I said we should consider him as an option in the off-season. It was a big reason I had hoped we had acquired another stay-at-home defenseman as insurance (see #3 below).
2. Kristian Huselius got injured in the off-season. He was replaced with Vinny Prospal. We got the same sort of contribution out of Prospal we could have expected from Huselius. Don't see how anyone can say this is why we underperformed.
3. Marc Methot got injured. Aaron Johnson filled his roster spot. Had our GM acquired another more suitable depth defenseman in the off-season to be our #7, this is less of a concern.
4. Dekanich, an unproven commodity, remains an unproven commodity. You get what you pay for. Howson's only saving grace was acquiring Sanford as a backup plan. This should also be a word of warning regarding a guy like Harding with an injury history--there better be a plan B somewhere in the organization other than throwing Allen York into the fire.
5. Wisniewski missed time, but the bigger problem was, when he was in the lineup early in the season, he did not have a defensive partner that meshed with him. Attempts to put him with Fedor Tyutin early on were a notable disaster.

Again, I see nothing in the above that couldn't have been adequately planned for by having better organizational depth. It is why I think that this organization will make a mistake if it doesn't acquire another defenseman this off-season and why we will have made an even bigger mistake if we do not rebuild our forward depth, which is presently poor even before the Nash trade.

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06-05-2012, 05:43 AM
  #310
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
I don't remember addressing man-games lost in goal.
I don't believe you did. I was referring to post #289.

I'm not denying the team had unusually bad luck with injuries last season, and obviously you can't fault management for that (except in cases like Martinek, where they knew - because everybody knew, it was openly discussed - they were gambling on his health).

I look at last season's roster and I think even if completely healthy (Huselius instead of Prospal, Dekanich instead of Sanford, Methot/Wisniewski/anybody instead of Johnson) it's still a last-place team. Maybe they claw their way up to 29th, but maybe not.


Last edited by TBJF: 06-05-2012 at 05:51 AM. Reason: THoughtus interruptus
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06-05-2012, 06:39 AM
  #311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
I don't remember addressing man-games lost in goal.
That was me.

Dekanich lost the entire season although he did play 5 games in Springfield.

Sanford lost 27 games.

Mason missed 8 games.

That is 100+ man games lost in Goal by the top 3 goalies.

Springfield was probably as bad but I didn't research that.

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06-05-2012, 06:49 AM
  #312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadman View Post
That was me.

Dekanich lost the entire season although he did play 5 games in Springfield.

Sanford lost 27 games.

Mason missed 8 games.

That is 100+ man games lost in Goal by the top 3 goalies.

Springfield was probably as bad but I didn't research that.
It could be argued that the 8 mason missed were actually a positive

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06-05-2012, 06:56 AM
  #313
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Originally Posted by TBJF View Post
I
I look at last season's roster and I think even if completely healthy (Huselius instead of Prospal, Dekanich instead of Sanford, Methot/Wisniewski/anybody instead of Johnson) it's still a last-place team. Maybe they claw their way up to 29th, but maybe not.
I don't know about that.

Most prognostications had the Jackets from 10th to 12th. There was considerable optimism here of course. Without the benefit of hindsight, EDM, COL, DAL, MIN, could have and in many cases were projected to finish below the CBJ.

It very easy to say well if we had greater system depth, and every team has injuries, yadda yadda yadda. System depth takes time and the injuries were concentrated in an area that wasn't the deepest to begin with.

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06-05-2012, 09:10 AM
  #314
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System depth takes time and the injuries were concentrated in an area that wasn't the deepest to begin with.
1. It has been 5 years. There is less depth now then the year the team went to the playoffs. That's called regression.

2. Whose fault was it that we lacked depth in goal? The fact that Dekanich was ever even considered a "solution" was the problem. Last year Howson actually could have acquired a veteran like Vokoun in addition to adding Sanford. Instead he gambled that Steve Mason would return to form and took a flyer on an unproven commodity.

Notwithstanding the number of man-games lost, the season went according to Howson's plan in goal, with Mason carrying the lion's share of the load, his backup playing another 36 games and a third goalie picking up the rest. Its just that Sanford subbed for Dekanich as the backup and Allen York was Sanford's stand in. The problem was that was the plan in the first place.

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06-05-2012, 10:06 AM
  #315
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Here's an actual (sort of) defense of Scott Howson, by Jeff Little at Ten Minute Misconduct:

http://tenminutemisconduct.com/?p=1685

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06-05-2012, 10:37 AM
  #316
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Here's an actual (sort of) defense of Scott Howson, by Jeff Little at Ten Minute Misconduct:

http://tenminutemisconduct.com/?p=1685
The typical sort of delusional defense of Howson I've come to expect. Funny how a majority of fans who want this guy gone becomes a "vocal minority." Also funny that he doesn't seem to get why Mike Priest is in the cross hairs--Jeff Carter, the Arniel hiring, his constant PR bungling with respect to the Arena situation and his general meddling in hockey operations.

Teaching Howson how to be GM is going to be more demanding on Patrick's time then just doing the job himself. Beyond that, is it really the time to be distracted with training the incompetent Howson instead of actually building the team for the future? Sadly, him botching the various moves this summer (Nash, the #2 pick, goaltending) could make the job of the next GM even more difficult and provide the same sort of built-in excuses about the "mess the prior GM left."

At any rate, the die is cast and people like Little get their wish for one more year regardless of the ultimate cost to the team or the fanbase. The rest of us are left to hope for a miracle--that the light finally goes on, that someone in the organization finally figures how to right the same ship that they helped crash. Either way, there will be no excuse if the result is not different this season. We don't have another 5 years for Howson to try and learn how to do his job, so Patrick better give him the Cliff Notes over the next couple weeks.

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06-05-2012, 10:41 AM
  #317
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pete goegan View Post
Here's an actual (sort of) defense of Scott Howson, by Jeff Little at Ten Minute Misconduct:

http://tenminutemisconduct.com/?p=1685
Great read. Its interesting to get a fresh perspective from someone who has his ear to the ground.... "I can guarantee that certain message boards are already alive with epithets being hurled in Howson’s direction over “letting Vokoun get away.” "

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06-05-2012, 10:44 AM
  #318
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IWhat was the difference between Dekanich last year and Ben Bishop this year? They were in exactly the same boat, but one was "OMG we HAVE to get this guy!!!!" and the other was "who the hell is that and why do we want him?"

.
I don't recall ever leading, or even being aboard, the "Ben Bishop to Columbus" train.... I said the Dex signing was a huge risk at the time it was made, not for the financial reasons, but because you're signing an AHL goaltender with 50 mins of NHL experience to back up a goaltender thats been statisically the worst starting goaltender in the NHL then last two seasons. Lets stop pretending our only options last season were to bite the risky bullet on Dekanich or another mostly unproven guy. Hell, its been all but confirmed now that at least two veteran guys' agent made calls to Columbus last offseason to guage interest.

I'm not hating on Dekanich, I'm hating on Howson for apparently being the only GM willingly to give him a one way deal this soon and for such a small window of experience in the league and I'm hating on Howson for, again, placing too much faith in a goaltender who had never come close to showing similar form to the goaltender that won the Calder 3 years ago. Like it or not, signing Dex to a one way deal with the intent of him being the backup was a huge risk from the start as acquiring goaltenders during the season is incredibly difficult.

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06-05-2012, 12:55 PM
  #319
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Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
The typical sort of delusional defense of Howson I've come to expect. Funny how a majority of fans who want this guy gone becomes a "vocal minority."
There are many, many more season ticket holders than there are F.A.N.S.. It's the majority here, but that says nothing of the fanbase in general.

The vocal radicals always want to believe they're the majority and that they speak for everyone. They never are and they never do.

(Not that I'm about to claim that the STHs not protesting somehow want to keep him. I think it disingenuous to claim the silent masses for either side. I know that in modern political discourse that's the favorite trend of everybody, but I can't stand it myself.)

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06-05-2012, 01:24 PM
  #320
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Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
The typical sort of delusional defense of Howson I've come to expect. Funny how a majority of fans who want this guy gone becomes a "vocal minority."
The blog was crap. It wasn't just bad, it was just downright garbage. I want to throw a heavy object at the writer for his spin on all things Patrick. What little I do know about Patrick and his time here doesn't translate, at all, to what people are saying.

But, at the same time, someone else is having delusions of grandeur.

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06-05-2012, 01:28 PM
  #321
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Great read. Its interesting to get a fresh perspective from someone who has his ear to the ground.... "I can guarantee that certain message boards are already alive with epithets being hurled in Howson’s direction over “letting Vokoun get away.” "
Fresh perspective? Everything he said has been said here at one time or another. Ear to the ground? What? There is nothing to suggest he has any real insight other than opinion. Half that blog was pure speculation.

Honestly, I have no idea what the point of the blog was. Pay homage to Patrick? Calm down posters on these boards?

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06-05-2012, 01:47 PM
  #322
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http://bluejackets.nhl.com/index.html

Q&A with Craig Patrick.

Not sure if posted before, but there it is.

Not a lot if any new but interesting comment along the lines of we went to see what was wrong and we found it about the trade deadline. Working to get it fixed. Not the exact wording but listen for yourselves.

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06-05-2012, 08:04 PM
  #323
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'Defending Howson' sounds like an oxymoron, let's see what Jeff Little is saying about him in November when we're dead last and mathematically eliminated from playoff contention.

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06-05-2012, 08:10 PM
  #324
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Not sure what to make of it or where to post, but I haven't seen anyone else bring it up...

http://bluejackets.nhl.com/club/news...id=DL|CBJ|home

Our ole' buddy Chris Clark replaces Wright as developmental coach. Good idea or bad?

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06-05-2012, 08:16 PM
  #325
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Not sure what to make of it or where to post, but I haven't seen anyone else bring it up...

http://bluejackets.nhl.com/club/news...id=DL|CBJ|home

Our ole' buddy Chris Clark replaces Wright as developmental coach. Good idea or bad?
Meh.

If it means that Wright is moving up in the organization (and I think it does given his level of activity in the draft proceedings) I'm not sure I'm thrilled about it. The early reviews on his work have not been good. Wright was far to willing to side with the prima donna kids over the adults in the room. But, perhaps he's better suited for scouting.

As for Clark himself, not sure what it says about him that he was brought to the team in order to improve the culture and seemingly failed. Hopefully he fairs better in management.

So, I'm not sure there is enough information to form an opinion at this point.

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