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Old
06-05-2012, 04:23 PM
  #626
MathMan
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Originally Posted by SB164 View Post
Michel Therrien and Jacques Martin will be on L'Antichambre tonight.
It will never happen, but I would so love to see Martin grill Therrien on strategy. "What's your thought or when a player needs to dump it at the blue line"? "What's your philosophy on who to send for a defensive zone faceoff"? "How would you approach your matchups and what will you do if your matchups don't work in a particular game"?

Find out if Therrien actually has solutions that go beyond "work harder, you wuss".

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06-05-2012, 05:25 PM
  #627
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It will never happen, but I would so love to see Martin grill Therrien on strategy. "What's your thought or when a player needs to dump it at the blue line"? "What's your philosophy on who to send for a defensive zone faceoff"? "How would you approach your matchups and what will you do if your matchups don't work in a particular game"?

Find out if Therrien actually has solutions that go beyond "work harder, you wuss".
He'll keep spewing out the verb "adapt", he seemed quite fond of it today.

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06-05-2012, 05:41 PM
  #628
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
It will never happen, but I would so love to see Martin grill Therrien on strategy. "What's your thought or when a player needs to dump it at the blue line"? "What's your philosophy on who to send for a defensive zone faceoff"? "How would you approach your matchups and what will you do if your matchups don't work in a particular game"?

Find out if Therrien actually has solutions that go beyond "work harder, you wuss".
"Put Malkin and Crosby on the same line."

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06-05-2012, 06:09 PM
  #629
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Well the AHL guys that we are missing on are Dallas Eakins and Jon Cooper and John Hynes. Eakins, the next prodigy who was not good enough to coach for his own NHL team. And frankly not a lot of experience to show for yet with this year being the first year he had success. Then there's Cooper who CLEARLY seems to be a real great winning coach. We might be missing on him, for sure. Though guess who named him in Norfolk....Julien Brisebois. Hey we never know....we might have made mistake with Bergevin...maybe the best candidate for the GM job was indeed Brisebois...freakin language debate....

And Hynes, well you'd hope he'd have more experience at the pro level, but he's clearly a guy on the rise for sure. Missing on him right now? I wouldn't say it's true though right now. So the only guy with enough experience and an incredible success story is Jon Cooper. Yet, Calgary didn't go for him. We'll see if Edmonton does or anybody else. I suspect some will soon though.
You know, Guy Boucher was a Brisbois hire as well as Jon Cooper. For all those guys that say he's a glorified paper pusher you should consider that it looks like he's two for two on his last coaches. That was a fairly big reason he was my preferred candidate for the GM job.

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06-05-2012, 06:09 PM
  #630
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"Put Malkin and Crosby on the same line."
I've got to admit, this strategy would be fantastic if applied to the Habs. If Therrien does that for the team I'll applaud him.

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06-05-2012, 06:23 PM
  #631
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Ding! Ding! Ding!

The truth finally comes out. It's not a question of language. It's a question of ethnicity.

Even when he's trying to back away from his bigoted statement, he's unable to do it. SAVARD NEVER SAID THE NEXT COACH HAD TO BE A FRANCOPHONE, you liar! Savard said the next coach had to speak French.

And now I call into question Bertrand Raymond's ability to communicate in French. Mr Raymond, you illiterate, there's a world of a difference between racist and bigot. Tony implied you were a bigot not a racist. Go and learn your mother tongue before you presume to write in French. You have the same words in French (actually the English borrowed those words from the French) and you have the same distinction in French. Racist & bigot are not the same thing, you effing moron.

By the way hockeyfan, I'm not addressing this post to you. I'm addressing it to that disgusting bigot, Bertrand Raymond.
Easy using such big words.....Bergevin CLEARLY indicated that ethnicity was not a consideration, only the spoken French. I think that Bergevin has more credibility that a bunch of frustrated anglo habs board posters....

In the last three years the majority of teams have gone towards coaches with NHL experience and success:
Boston - Julien had 2 unsuccessful jobs before landing the Bruins and winning the cup
Sutter - will win the cup after a disastrous end with the Flames
Hitch - got another chance and changed the the Blues
Vigneault - Adams winner, two presidents cup after 2 failed jobs
DeBoer - finalist after three losing seasons

Therrien and Hartley were going to work again in the NHL and that was proven also with the Flames appointment. Therrien deserves to be mentioned, based on his accomplishments, with the above mentioend coaches.

Don't let you biases cloud your judgement. Therrien was a good solid selection. You can erst assured the the days of getting pushed around and non-accountability are over.

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06-05-2012, 06:26 PM
  #632
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
You know, Guy Boucher was a Brisbois hire as well as Jon Cooper. For all those guys that say he's a glorified paper pusher you should consider that it looks like he's two for two on his last coaches. That was a fairly big reason he was my preferred candidate for the GM job.
Well you do remember how I was pissed about that poster who had those incredible "infos" about 2 guys who knew him and had no respect for him.....Well I guess he's not doing too bad for himself.

Yet, my choice was Bergevin for getting some fresh and new ideas.....ironically enough, I would have NEVER expected that he would be the one bringing back Therrien....Still, I'll give the chance to that duo to do a good job. But I still believe we had better options. But we had worst ones as well, at least for our market. Wouldn't be surprised that Crawford might get the job in Edmonton now.

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06-05-2012, 06:30 PM
  #633
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It will never happen, but I would so love to see Martin grill Therrien on strategy. "What's your thought or when a player needs to dump it at the blue line"? "What's your philosophy on who to send for a defensive zone faceoff"? "How would you approach your matchups and what will you do if your matchups don't work in a particular game"?

Find out if Therrien actually has solutions that go beyond "work harder, you wuss".
Okay so you clearly think that Therrien is an idiot. And surely then think that Bergevin.....and Dudley and Mellanby are complete morons for having hired a total idiot 'cause you know that in an interview like that, they did ask those types of questions. I'm pretty sure that Bergevin had more than 1 question and that it was more than "Do you believe in hard work or lazyness....".

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06-05-2012, 06:34 PM
  #634
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I know jacques martin will be classy tonight but all this talk about "Étique de travail" from michel therrien is essentially implying that jacques could not handle this team. I wonder if he will question him on how he will make the players play better.

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06-05-2012, 06:35 PM
  #635
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Okay so you clearly think that Therrien is an idiot. And surely then think that Bergevin.....and Dudley and Mellanby are complete morons for having hired a total idiot 'cause you know that in an interview like that, they did ask those types of questions.
I don't think they're idiots. I think Therrien is an ineffective coach who doesn't have much in the way of tactical ability or knowledge and has never managed to direct a quality five-on-five club. He's a strict disciplinarian and amorphous tactically, which is hardly the best fit for a hard-working but unstructured team.

At this point I think Bergevin is a conservative, old-school guy who seems to prefer to hire his buddies who think like he does, and I think Dudley and Mellanby are old-school guys. I think that all amounts to a very poor way to run a hockey club. This opinion isn't definite because we don't have much information yet, but that's where the preponderance of current evidence leads me.

Furthermore, I also wish Martin would ask him because I'm genuinely interested in the answers, if any. The lack of actual hockey analysis on these hockey shows is pretty appalling and that would make for a refreshing departure.

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06-05-2012, 06:53 PM
  #636
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I don't think they're idiots. I think Therrien is an ineffective coach who doesn't have much in the way of tactical ability or knowledge and has never managed to direct a quality five-on-five club. He's a strict disciplinarian and amorphous tactically, which is hardly the best fit for a hard-working but unstructured team.

At this point I think Bergevin is a conservative, old-school guy who seems to prefer to hire his buddies who think like he does, and I think Dudley and Mellanby are old-school guys. I think that all amounts to a very poor way to run a hockey club. This opinion isn't definite because we don't have much information yet, but that's where the preponderance of current evidence leads me.

Furthermore, I also wish Martin would ask him because I'm genuinely interested in the answers, if any. The lack of actual hockey analysis on these hockey shows is pretty appalling and that would make for a refreshing departure.
So I get that Bergevin was not your candidate. And that old school guys don't believe in systems. Yet, it's not like old-school Dudley and Bergevin were away from hockey for the past 15 years with no knowledge that hockey has changed. Everywhere in this league, people are going out of their way to say just how credible, intelligent and wise those guys are....but as outsiders, we'll choose just to not believe it? Unless you are saying that every guy out there who mentioned that are also outdated? Yeah I know...it also came for Burke....he's just one of them though.

And honestly, saying ALREADY that Therrien didn't improve, didn't adapt, and was just stuck in the past....isn't that a little premature? The guy didn't coach his first preseason game but we'll choose to believe he didn't evolve?

Again, should I repeat it..he was my plan D. But there's a limit to throw somebody under the bus. Strangely it was not like that before with such force, from so many people. Why is that?

Oh and don't look....but everyboyd hire their buddies. And then, we are not talking about a GM hiring his assistant GM, so that the assistant-GM becomes the GM and hires the ex-gm as his assistant....we are talking about Bergevin who knows Dudley yet, they have NEVER worked in the roles they'll be working in...how do we know that they will always agree?

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06-05-2012, 06:54 PM
  #637
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Originally Posted by shamrun View Post
I know jacques martin will be classy tonight but all this talk about "Étique de travail" from michel therrien is essentially implying that jacques could not handle this team. I wonder if he will question him on how he will make the players play better.
Let just say that I doubt Therrien agreed with Martin and Cunneyworth with their repetitive lack of practices....

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06-05-2012, 07:17 PM
  #638
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I can't believe that Jacques Martin is invited for a show that is supposed to be entertaining

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06-05-2012, 07:19 PM
  #639
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So I get that Bergevin was not your candidate.
That's not the point. He was the unknown factor. I was cautiously optimistic after his first presser. I'm starting to think he's revealed his true colors, so now my expectations for his tenure are very low.

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Everywhere in this league, people are going out of their way to say just how credible, intelligent and wise those guys are....but as outsiders, we'll choose just to not believe it?
I can form my own opinions based on the guy's attitudes and actions. Dudley has a history. It's not very promising. His preference for athleticism over performance is pretty well documented.

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And honestly, saying ALREADY that Therrien didn't improve, didn't adapt, and was just stuck in the past....isn't that a little premature? The guy didn't coach his first preseason game but we'll choose to believe he didn't evolve?
If his Pittsburgh work is any indication, he would need to do more than "evolve". He would need to completely reinvent himself into a structured puck-possession coach. His press conference certainly gives the impression that this was not the case.

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Oh and don't look....but everyboyd hire their buddies. And then, we are not talking about a GM hiring his assistant GM, so that the assistant-GM becomes the GM and hires the ex-gm as his assistant....we are talking about Bergevin who knows Dudley yet, they have NEVER worked in the roles they'll be working in...how do we know that they will always agree?
Not everybody hires their buddies. I've already said I'm concerned about a monoculture. Well, this hire is the first sign of what such a monoculture might lead to.

EDIT: That said, I will reserve final judgement until I see what kind of roster he puts together.

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06-05-2012, 07:20 PM
  #640
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Originally Posted by Aurel Joliat View Post
I can't believe that Jacques Martin is invited for a show that is supposed to be entertaining


All kidding aside, I'm not a big fan of L'AC but tonight should be interesting with all the former coaches. Should be good for a few laughs and revelations I hope.

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06-05-2012, 07:37 PM
  #641
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I can form my own opinions based on the guy's attitudes and actions. Dudley has a history. It's not very promising. His preference for athleticism over performance is pretty well documented.
For sure, everybody can have their own opinions as far as liking or not liking a candidate. But to sound like they totally are inept as if we would have hired back Jean Perron, I feel that we should, somehow, take also into account the opinion of professionnals of this entire league.


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If his Pittsburgh work is any indication, he would need to do more than "evolve". He would need to completely reinvent himself into a structured puck-possession coach. His press conference certainly gives the impression that this was not the case.
Come on Mathman, is there really a press conference at the hiring of a coach that states exactly what type of system they'll have in place? Would that be intelligent to do so when you actually have no idea with the kind of players you'll start with? If he's able to adapt, how about adapting his system depending who you have in hand? Everybody in their right midn prefer keeping the puck than continuously giving it to others....but any chance you kinda need the guys to do that. I'd add a Datsyuk and that alone would upgrade the stats a bit.

Now, who were the unlingual coaches we would have love to hire if they would have been available again? Is Trotz one of them? That's the guy who has seen his team being outshot 54 times this year. Thank god for that great goalie I guess. And the powerplay as well. Yet, we all love Trotz don't we? And 46 times being outshot the year before. Should we change our opinion on Trotz? And how do we compare it to the fact that some keep saying that Martin's system was maybe to allow a lot of shots....but all from the outside? Do we have that stats that talk about the ratio shots/real scoring chances?

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Old
06-05-2012, 07:58 PM
  #642
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Getting outshot is not necessarily a sign of a bad puck possession team. It's a sign of a team that takes the lead often. If there are stats that show that Therrien's Pittsburgh team got outshot a lot and was NOT in the lead, then I will say you're right.

But in some cases, getting outshot means that the teams plays with a lead. Playing with a lead can a lot of times translate into a team that 'sits' in a defensive mode. Some here say that it's plain stupid. And from the outside, it may seem that way. But whoever played hockey at a competitive level KNOW that's how it works most of the time. The numbers of shot don't impress me. Scoring chances do. Were the Penguins getting outnumbered in scoring chances every game? If so, how did they win sooooo many games that year? Fleury is not the answer, sorry. Fleury has never been 'out of this world'. Hasek, on the other had, was the SOLE reason why Buffalo had a successful run. He was out of this world. You could say, to a certain extent that Quick has been out of this world. The year the Pens went to the finals, how did they fare scoring chances wise?

Under Bylsma, although they did win the cup because of a highly motivated squad who had all the breaks after he came aboard (including no major injuries to his stars during the playoffs), I haven't seen a very hungry Pens team since. Sorry. Against Montreal, Pittsburgh looked WAYYY less dangerous than the Caps. This season, I wasn't impressed AT ALL.

I'm not defending Therrien. I'm not a big fan of his, didn't like the way the team played (thought the Habs weren't a structured bunch). So for me, it's meh. It's more 'wait and see' before passing judgement. I wasn't a fan of Jacques Martin because he was playing a very passive system. Yes, he liked puck possession...but in his zone. Montreal wasn't very agressive on its forecheck because the team lacked the presence to do so. And Jacques never adapted his style to the style of the players he had on hand.

One thing I know about Therrien is that he's a very 'feel'-type of coach during a game. And that's good. In fact, that's VERY good. Because this is where a coach makes his presence felt. Not during practices. He 'feels' which players have it during a certain night, and uses them accordingly. Jacques wasn't as intuitive.

If a coach was just an x and o and stats guy, Charles Thiffault would have 25 Stanley Cups to his resume. The year MOntreal won, EVERY PLAYER on the team will tell you that Jacques Demers' contribution was immense. The intuitive call he made against McSorley was just pure instinct. Not x's and o's. No statsman would have told him to go ahead. Most of them would have been scared shlitless to pull such a move. And no statman would have given Patrick Roy the confidence he needed to rebound after a pretty putrid season. The statman would have gone with André Racicot.

It took instinct and 'feel' for Jacques Lemaire to use Steve Penney over the other goalie in the playoffs. If not for Penney, Montreal would not have surprised teams in the playoffs in the early 80's and Lemaire would probably never have coached in NJ. His success in the playoffs let to Lou calling him for a job later on, as Jacques was already seen as a master tactician.

It took instinct for Jean Perron and Serge Savard (specially him) to put Patrick Roy in net in 1986 over Dough Soetaert (spelling). Rest is history.

Therrien has 'it'. The instinct, the 'feel' for a bench. What he needs is some brains to help him out.


Last edited by deandebean: 06-05-2012 at 08:10 PM.
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06-05-2012, 08:10 PM
  #643
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For sure, everybody can have their own opinions as far as liking or not liking a candidate. But to sound like they totally are inept as if we would have hired back Jean Perron, I feel that we should, somehow, take also into account the opinion of professionnals of this entire league.
Those guys have experience, but you also have to remember that as a group they tend to be extremely conservative, set in their ways, and tend to prefer to always go back to the same network.


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Come on Mathman, is there really a press conference at the hiring of a coach that states exactly what type of system they'll have in place?
No, but it would have been better if Therrien hadn't brought up "work ethic and intensity" in a way that made it appear it was the thing the team needed to fix the most when if anything it was the only thing about it that never faltered.

I'm not asking for details, but something like "I felt the team's structure broke down and we need to recommit to a puck possession game with quick transition" would have been far better in my opinion. And this ought to be a goal regardless of your roster composition. A better identification of the problem that also hints that he considers it important. It doesn't help that I've seen too many coaches whose only solution to any problem was "work harder".

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Now, who were the unlingual coaches we would have love to hire if they would have been available again?
I'm not sure why you're bringing this up with me. I don't think language is the issue here by any means. I would probably have gone with Groulx or a francophone rookie coach.

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06-05-2012, 08:15 PM
  #644
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Getting outshot is not necessarily a sign of a bad puck possession team. It's a sign of a team that takes the lead often. If there are stats that show that Therrien's Pittsburgh team got outshot a lot and was NOT in the lead, then I will say you're right.
Your statement that teams that lead get outshot more is perfectly correct. But as it turns out, I have stats that say almost exactly what you ask: http://behindthenet.ca/fenwick_2007....6&section=tied

Some explanation -- these stats are shot ratios pulled from NHL official gamesheets. Those numbers covers goals, shots, and missed shots as well (but not blocked shots) and only cover 5-on-5. "Close" is defined as either tied or within a goal in the first two periods.

As you can see, not only did the Pens get outshot when they were tied, they would get outshot when they were behind by more than one, too.

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Were the Penguins getting outnumbered in scoring chances every game? If so, how did they win sooooo many games that year? Fleury is not the answer, sorry. Fleury has never been 'out of this world'.
As it turns out it was mostly goaltending (Fleury got injured, Conklin played for .923) and the power play. It was very similar to the Habs of that same year.

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06-05-2012, 08:18 PM
  #645
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Your statement that teams that lead get outshot more is perfectly correct. But as it turns out, I have stats that say almost exactly what you ask: http://behindthenet.ca/fenwick_2007....6&section=tied

Some explanation -- these stats are shot ratios pulled from NHL official gamesheets. Those numbers covers goals, shots, and missed shots as well (but not blocked shots) and only cover 5-on-5. "Close" is defined as either tied or within a goal in the first two periods.

As you can see, not only did the Pens get outshot when they were tied, they would get outshot when they were behind by more than one, too.



As it turns out it was mostly goaltending (Fleury got injured, Conklin played for .923) and the power play. It was very similar to the Habs of that same year.
Scoring chances?

Conklin wasn't the reason. Man, saying Conklin was the reason is like saying André Racicot saved Roy's ass in 1993.

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06-05-2012, 08:18 PM
  #646
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Your statement that teams that lead get outshot more is perfectly correct. But as it turns out, I have stats that say almost exactly what you ask: http://behindthenet.ca/fenwick_2007....6&section=tied

Some explanation -- these stats are shot ratios pulled from NHL official gamesheets. Those numbers covers goals, shots, and missed shots as well (but not blocked shots) and only cover 5-on-5. "Close" is defined as either tied or within a goal in the first two periods.

As you can see, not only did the Pens get outshot when they were tied, they would get outshot when they were behind by more than one, too.



As it turns out it was mostly goaltending (Fleury got injured, Conklin played for .923) and the power play. It was very similar to the Habs of that same year.

What was the power play - pk ratio that year for the Pens?

Mathman, do you know the info on this one?


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06-05-2012, 08:23 PM
  #647
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I'm not sure why you're bringing this up with me. I don't think language is the issue here by any means. I would probably have gone with Groulx or a francophone rookie coach.
I'm saying that amongst the great coaches in the league that we should have taken EVEN THOUGH they don't speak french, we have Trotz, Babcock, Ruff and Bylsma. So we can say that those guys represent the "exceptionnals". Well amongst those guys, you have one in Trotz, who wasn't too good in the outshot column for at least 2 years in a row now and I didn't chech the other years.

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06-05-2012, 08:29 PM
  #648
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Scoring chances?
Highly correlated to shot attempts.

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Conklin wasn't the reason. Man, saying Conklin was the reason is like saying André Racicot saved Roy's ass in 1993.
Conklin goaled .923. Fleury .921. Was it a fluke? Absolutely, but sometimes goalies get hot for a year like that. It's not the result of good coaching.

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06-05-2012, 08:30 PM
  #649
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I can't believe that Jacques Martin is invited for a show that is supposed to be entertaining
He was actually pretty cool on the show shortly after being fired. I'm sure he is over it and will try to help Therrien since he is still employed by the Habs

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06-05-2012, 08:30 PM
  #650
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This will be great to see Therrien all of a sudden think twice before saying something about his own players LOL.

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