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Biggest flaw of Torts system

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Old
06-05-2012, 08:19 PM
  #51
bernmeister
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Originally Posted by mooskating View Post
not sure if it's part of the system but my biggest problem with torts is player bias. guys like boyle, prust, del zotto, and staal playing despite having bad stretches, turnovers, or coverage lapses, or being down 2+ goals(in boyle/prust's case)... meanwhile guys like bickel, stralman, eminger, kreider, and stepan get severe ice time reduction when they make mistakes. in fact... del zotto gets more minutes when he screws up (first two goals in game 6 he failed his coverage).

another example is the sean avery, eric christensen situation--though i wouldn't be surprised if that was just a ref/discipline thing... but sean was surely a more consistent hockey player than christensen (especially when it came to off-sides )


otherwise...
crap forecheck this season
blocking shots increases likelihood of deflections and injuries. we have arguably the best goaltender in the league. he should be allowed to see shots.
pp (though i think that's sully's department)
does not change the offense EVER.
lines are screwy-- change too fast or don't change enough. seems like he just randomly throws guys out there
playing behind the net instead of the front
nobody screens the goalie
dump and chase/no end to end rushes
depth is a problem, but not really a system problem
refusal to bring in another assistant coach (or two)for another opinion on some things.
basically doesn't make any smart moves on offense. ever. no changes. no line counters. no real set plays. he's a bad coach in that aspect.
board work has sucked
does not allow guys to retaliate or try to sell a call. as respectful as it may be...it holds our team back.


to be fair some positives:
the guys like him.
everybody buys in
one of the best defensive teams in the league in terms of shot blocking
clutch time outs sometimes.
he responds to beer being spilled on him by chasing fans down with hockey sticks.
he cares a lot about the team.
guys follow him from organization to organization. (he got us richards!) basically everybody in the league speaks highly of the guy and wanted to play for him at some point.
Kudos to all who provided thoughtful responses.
This one appears most comprehensive overall, and I would emphasize this:
"blocking shots increases likelihood of deflections and injuries"

Over exerted and uneven effort on D has us often lunging and diving. Even assuming it is more effective than not, which is an open question, even if you still assume that, this takes a lot more out of you. That may not seem as much in a vacuum, or over a whole season if you have a young enough team.

But if you are in playoffs, no shootout to artificially improve your results with your world class goalie, and you run into a hot goalie, you have to squeak by each and every time with little room. And you can't do this if games are so close with all that squeaking that you have OTs and you are exhausted compared to fresh teams in the following round, which is what happened in our case.

Torts is like Billy Martin was. Hugely overrated. Can get short term results up to a point, but it is not normal or good long term. Billy Martin got great results, I think it was Oakland As one year, he pitched em all wrong, in a year or two, most of the arms were messed up. It's not an exact parallel, but it's close enough.

Replace Torts, We got
Messier
JD
Sullivan
maybe Gernander
all good candidates

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06-05-2012, 08:26 PM
  #52
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Yeah, fire a coach that has won a Calder Cup, Stanley Cup, Olympic Silver Medal, and lead this Rangers team to the #1 seed in the Eastern Conference, won the Atlantic Division, and brought this club from mediocre to contention in the span of three years, while developing young players into legitimate high-end NHL players....

...and replace him with guys who either NEVER coached at any level before, or never coached in the NHL...


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06-05-2012, 08:38 PM
  #53
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I'm barely paying attention to the NJ-LA series. What is LA doing right that we were not?

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06-05-2012, 08:41 PM
  #54
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Defensive zone strategy. They do not attack the puckholder, they collapse in front of the net and try to block shots instead. This allows the guys on the point a ton of time to set up and tons of room to shoot. In the Devils series it bit us in the ass because of the number of times the Devils scored on deflections. And the sad thing is that the Devils have terrible shooting defensemen.

The reason Torts didn't change it up was because the Rangers did that the entire season, and it landed them the #1 seed. On some level, I do not blame him for not changing because if it ain't broke don't fix it. But the problem was that it was broke, and Torts didn't adjust. No way in hell he should be fired, but he has to modify and adjust his strategies a bit more when things aren't working, aka be a bit less stubborn.

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06-06-2012, 12:39 AM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueshirt Believer View Post
IMO, the overuse of the stretch pass. Our breakout/transitional play was pedestrian all through the playoffs. Throwing pucks around the half wall, not using any poise with the puck from Dmen to the support from the wingers.

Our transition should have been more deliberate with the level of talent this team does not possess.

This is probably my biggest concern with Torts as a coach moving forward. I think he is stuck in a pre lockout transitional game. Teams will continue to exploit this.
Plus one.

We are REALLY extreme in this regard even compared to similar teams (say Boston).

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06-06-2012, 12:46 AM
  #56
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Torts isn't perfect, show me a coach who is.

With that said, he's a proven winner and for the fist time in a generation this team is a legit cup contender.

Frankly, the biggest problem with this team is beyond Torts control - it lacks offensive talent on the wings.

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06-06-2012, 12:48 AM
  #57
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Stugot- I think thats a very sharp observation and you are definitely right that our D-play was "broke" at times against NJ.

But, I think the collapsing deep strategy is here to stay for sure. I don't think we lost our offensive game because we were worn out, that's an excuse, but our Ds started to loose some focus and our forwards got out of the shooting lanes against NJ. There it definitely showed that we were tired.

Also, we want to block less shots? How about spending less time in our defensive zone? We definitely set an record of some sort with time inD zone and pts.

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06-06-2012, 12:54 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Edge View Post
Torts isn't perfect, show me a coach who is.

With that said, he's a proven winner and for the fist time in a generation this team is a legit cup contender.

Frankly, the biggest problem with this team is beyond Torts control - it lacks offensive talent on the wings.
Edge, your last paragraph is definitely TABU. You cannot give Torts a pass for not having skill when he refuses to work with players who aren't perfect grinders. A skilled perfect grinder is a 7m plus player. How many of those are we supposed to get our hands on in a cap world?

Okey, maybe I am exaggerating a bit, but you get my point.

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06-06-2012, 01:38 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ola View Post
Edge, your last paragraph is definitely TABU. You cannot give Torts a pass for not having skill when he refuses to work with players who aren't perfect grinders. A skilled perfect grinder is a 7m plus player. How many of those are we supposed to get our hands on in a cap world?

Okey, maybe I am exaggerating a bit, but you get my point.
Torts has come out and said that he'd work with a guy who doesn't fit in his philosophy. Besides MZA, who I think we mishandled, every "skill" guy he's gone through like W2 and EC aren't even great skill players to begin with.

Give Torts another Gaborik like player to play on a top 6 wing and I guarantee you he fits just fine.

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06-06-2012, 01:42 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
Edge, your last paragraph is definitely TABU. You cannot give Torts a pass for not having skill when he refuses to work with players who aren't perfect grinders. A skilled perfect grinder is a 7m plus player. How many of those are we supposed to get our hands on in a cap world?

Okey, maybe I am exaggerating a bit, but you get my point.
I don't think the issue is perfect grinders, it's finding guys outside of Gaborik and Callahan who can score consistently on the flanks.

Personally, I think Torts has gotten quite a few guys to work pretty well, despite some pretty glaring weaknesses.

If you're an opposing coach, who do you fear on the Rangers left side? For that matter, which winger outside Gaborik really forces you to focus on them?

The fact of the matter is that this team was really not a strong offensive team. It's gutsy play, strong defense and world class goaltending tend to lull people into thinking that it doesn't have a very serious problem. I tend to think it overachieved a little, and in a lot of ways, played right into a style that this board loves, but too often, over-projects.

For all the love thrown at guys like Anisimov, Stepan and Dubinsky, none of them are feared goal scorers. At some point, we need guys who are going to put the puck in the net. Not perfectly, but ideally once every three games or so. The team might be able to remedy that next year if guys like Kreider and Hagelin continue to develop, but it certainly wasn't a given this year.

This team wore down because it didn't have finishers who could help put teams away and after 20 games of scratching and clawing to score, it finally couldn't keep going.

Simply put, I don't think teams feared the Rangers scoring on them. They essentially knew that if the defense or the goaltending wasn't perfect, the Rangers were going to struggle.

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06-06-2012, 01:43 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Blueshirt Believer View Post
It also lead to oddman rushes and goals for the Devils.
watch kreider or boyle when a d pinches. two of the very select few that know a d pinching means that they may need to turn on the afterburners to prevent that odd man rush... second d also needs to not be stupid and pinch in while his partner already deep (staal and del zotto did this sooo many times)

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06-06-2012, 01:48 AM
  #62
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I think the arguments against Torts are, in some cases, actually pointing to what others are saying.

The Rangers defense could not afford to be anything less than perfect, because the offense just wasn't there.

We can point to backchecking mistakes and pinching situations that didn't work, but the bottom line is that those things only matter as much as they do because you knew the Rangers weren't likely to score and erase the occassional mistake.

And if you knew it as a fan, you darn well better believe the other team knew. Essentially, the better teams gave us the Darren Langdon treatment. And eventually, after a serious of very long "bouts" we were vulnerable.

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06-06-2012, 07:33 AM
  #63
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There's nothing wrong with the "system", no system is perfect. The problem with this team is offensive skill and creativity. I don't post much, but I was spot on come the playoffs. Once teams philosophy changed to sacrifice at all costs to protect the net the Rangers were done. The only reason we were in the ECF was luck, we beat Ott & WASH.... Not the toughest of teams, yet it still took 14 games... This team can't score, they throw 20-30 flubbers at the goaltender most nights hoping Cally can bang home a rebound. Look at this team's record when allowing more than two measly goals, it's pathetic....We need some real skill and creativity, or you won't be seeing a Cup while Henrik continues to carry this team on his back through his prime...

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06-06-2012, 10:17 AM
  #64
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Torts rolling three lines contributes to fatigue, his shot blocking system runs the risk of injuries and his constant line juggling compromises the development of continuity.

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06-06-2012, 10:40 AM
  #65
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Looking at all these comments makes it look like Torts didn't coach the team to a 109 point regular season and a trip to the ECF, but more like a 9th seeded team.

Okay, Lundqvist has been a huge part of that, but he's been a huge part (if not the whole team since 05) of the team.

We constantly complain about him never having a team in front. Well, this year Torts coached up a team and they became a solid team in front of Lundqvist. Most likely the best team Lundqvist has had in front of him since the start. Yeah, their scoring sucked again, but they played great defensive hockey all season. I truly believe Lundqvist's insane stats are slightly helped by the team's overall defensive play. The final two ECF games were terrible for the team's coverage and defense. It is what it is. They're young. Tortorella knows what he's doing.


Since this is a negativity thread......

The power play of course. We have the horses for the power play, except for the scoring winger we need (Kreider can be that guy). Tortorella isn't using the horses we do have effectively, although it started to pick up. Maybe it's chemistry?

Get a top-6 winger and we'll be set. Again, Kreider can be it. It'll add more goals.

With a defensive style of play, goals will probably be down. And they were. Or you can have a offensive type system and have spotty defense. I'll take Tortorella's system with Lundqvist in net anyday.

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06-06-2012, 01:37 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueshirt Believer View Post
IMO, the overuse of the stretch pass. Our breakout/transitional play was pedestrian all through the playoffs. Throwing pucks around the half wall, not using any poise with the puck from Dmen to the support from the wingers.

Our transition should have been more deliberate with the level of talent this team does not possess.

This is probably my biggest concern with Torts as a coach moving forward. I think he is stuck in a pre lockout transitional game. Teams will continue to exploit this.
How can he be stuck in pre-lockout and the stretch pass be his greatest flaw? The Stretch pass didn't become popular until post lockout when they removed the 2-line pass.

Every team uses the stretch pass now, how is Torts any different? When you've got speed like Hagelin and Gaborik on the wing, why not use them to to fly up the ice. If Mike Gartner and Pavel Bure played without 2-line passes, they'd be getting that stretch pass all day!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lone Ranger View Post
Torts rolling three lines contributes to fatigue, his shot blocking system runs the risk of injuries and his constant line juggling compromises the development of continuity.
You'd think this team missed the playoffs or something. We better fire the coach!

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06-06-2012, 02:07 PM
  #67
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He refuses to make adjustments other than shuffling the lines.

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06-06-2012, 03:02 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Yeah, fire a coach that has won a Calder Cup, Stanley Cup, Olympic Silver Medal, and lead this Rangers team to the #1 seed in the Eastern Conference, won the Atlantic Division, and brought this club from mediocre to contention in the span of three years, while developing young players into legitimate high-end NHL players....

...and replace him with guys who either NEVER coached at any level before, or never coached in the NHL...
Sounds like a great idea!

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06-06-2012, 03:09 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Yeah, fire a coach that has won a Calder Cup, Stanley Cup, Olympic Silver Medal, and lead this Rangers team to the #1 seed in the Eastern Conference, won the Atlantic Division, and brought this club from mediocre to contention in the span of three years, while developing young players into legitimate high-end NHL players....

...and replace him with guys who either NEVER coached at any level before, or never coached in the NHL...
+1 You would think we missed the play offs and finished in 14th

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06-06-2012, 03:21 PM
  #70
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Many flaws of this team can be eradicated with more talent throughout the lineup in their respective postions. A team with only 2 legitmate top 3 players can only go so far anyway.

it caught up to us. any discerning fan knew it would eventually.
We need to bring in improvements in the top six, bottom six, and our third pairing D.

Even if our powerplay were average, think about how better team we would have been. If we're going to continue to play this system we need more scoring and more physicality. Bring in Ott, Clowe, Iginla, Ryan, players like that. Honestly i wish we'd make a move for Chris Neil, that guy would be frickin awesome on this team. he's a wrecking ball on skates.

too many chickenSh*t softies on this team.

I'm expecting some big offseason moves.
You're going to be sorely disappointed in this off-season, I'd suspect.

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06-06-2012, 03:21 PM
  #71
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How can he be stuck in pre-lockout and the stretch pass be his greatest flaw? The Stretch pass didn't become popular until post lockout when they removed the 2-line pass.

Every team uses the stretch pass now, how is Torts any different? When you've got speed like Hagelin and Gaborik on the wing, why not use them to to fly up the ice. If Mike Gartner and Pavel Bure played without 2-line passes, they'd be getting that stretch pass all day!



You'd think this team missed the playoffs or something. We better fire the coach!
Completely untrue. The stretch pass strategy has existed as far back as the late 70's(Those Dynasty Canadian team used to do it all the time). It has nothing to do with the two line pass or not. Most of the time a forward is going to receive the puck close to the red line anyways, so they have some sort of forward momentum going into the zone. A forward just hanging at an opposing team blue line(waiting for a pass), is just going to end up dumping it or tipping it in anyways. In Turn that leads to problem where we far too often willingly defer the puck back to the opposition. The absence of the two line pass allows longer ability to clear, but when do the Rangers spring their forwards with it?

Our Defensemen make TONS of stretch passes from our corner or below the hash marks. Those are the biggest culprits of a system that isn't adjusting to play. Torts did stretch passes constantly with Tampa, but he had the horses to pull it off. It eventually became ineffective there because he over relied on it and teams adjusted.

Torts does not allow Defensive mobility from our Dmen. The best teams playing today allow the defense to skate the puck, close gaps, and make short passes out of the zone. The strech pass can be used occasionally(to keep teams honest), but you can't base an entire breakout system on it.

The very fact that we don't have forwards who can control long passes like a Pavel Bure or a Mike Gartner is exactly why we shouldn't be doing that. Collectively our forwards are DREADFUL at receiving passes. They fumble pucks, they don't keep their sticks on the ice etc. On top of that, outside Gaborik, who the hell benefits even if they get the puck? Our forwards are dreadful on the rush, are not a great skating team(despite exceptions).


Last edited by Blueshirt Believer: 06-06-2012 at 03:35 PM.
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06-06-2012, 03:31 PM
  #72
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Torts is too hard on his players, all this conditioning is ridiculous.

Torts plays kids way too much, lets go back to a coach who can't recognize young talent and relies on vets more.

Torts demanding hard work from his players is preposterous, lets go back to a more understanding coach who cuts his players some slack.

All this wining really sucks, I mean really, a #28 pick?! What the heck are we gonna do with that? I'd so much rather have a the #4 pick.

And most of all, Torts disrupts my FBB, league. The NHL starts in early October, right around when the MLB regular season is ending. Baseball season starts at the end of March, who cares about hockey after that!

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06-06-2012, 03:45 PM
  #73
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Completely untrue. The stretch pass strategy has existed as far back as the late 70's
More like Completely True. I didn't say it didn't exist, I said it didn't become popular. The Stretch pass is used far more today then ever before. Most teams are using some version of it and that hasn't always been the case. Lengthening the defensive zone and removing the 2-line pass has absolutely fostered the implementation and POPULARITY of the stretch pass!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueshirt Believer View Post
The strech pass can be used occasionally(to keep teams honest), but you can't base an entire breakout system on it.
The Ranger's system is to congest the middle of the ice, keep pucks to the outside, and get it out of the zone as quickly as possible. And guess what, it works!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueshirt Believer View Post
The very fact that we don't have forwards who can control long passes like a Pavel Bure or a Mike Gartner is exactly why we shouldn't be doing that.
Gap control, better defensive systems and bigger faster skaters are the reason why players can't handle the pucks as well anymore. Its true not only with the Rangers, but all around the league. Watch more than just the highlights and you'll see that no forward has time to look down at the puck, collect, and move forward with a play anymore. Those that do, end up in highlights as scoring opportunities due to defensive lapses or bone crushing body checks where the forward was flattened.

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06-06-2012, 03:59 PM
  #74
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I'm barely paying attention to the NJ-LA series. What is LA doing right that we were not?
They have better forwards - and more of them.

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06-06-2012, 04:05 PM
  #75
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This team overachieved all year long,still got to the ECF,and STILL people find something to complain about.

only in RangerLand kiddies

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