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06-07-2012, 09:51 AM
  #876
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Originally Posted by zuccarello awesome View Post
because he's shown some of the worst defensive reads and instincts that i've ever seen. And at the end of the day, he is a defenseman.

So while his 40 points of mostly secondary assists is nice, watching him every night has not been as impressive as some of you claim.

He makes fundamental mistakes that they teach defensemen not to make in pee wee hockey. His partner is already pinched, and he pinches aggressively with no sense of urgency. He goes out of his way to throw a hit on a guy who's already being hit by another ranger, leaving the front of the net completely uncovered. If he's making these kinds of mistakes in his 3rd pro season, i'm less than optimistic about him becoming a "good" defenseman in his own zone.

Some of you refuse to criticize homegrown players. You make excuses for any and every flaw in their game. He's 21!!! Have some patience!! Next year, it'll be "he's only 22," then 23, then it'll be "defensemen really don't reach their peak til 28-30." you have to draw the line somewhere.

You can't fall in love with every prospect. Some are going to be shipped out. It's the reality of the business. Our top 3 defensemen are homegrown. Is it really a necessity that our 4th be homegrown as well, when he could help fill a much more glaring need in a scoring forward?

Nobody's saying trade him for the sake of trading him. We're saying trade him if you can get a dynamic top 6 forward who can improve your attack. We're suggesting to trade him because we acknowledge that he's a good player who has value around the league. If not, he wouldn't be able to fetch the type of players we're speculating about.
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06-07-2012, 09:52 AM
  #877
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MDZ , game winning goal game 7 vs Caps

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06-07-2012, 09:53 AM
  #878
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I don't think Del Zotto will be traded unless it's for another offensive defenseman that is a surefire upgrade, or a defenseman that is capable of replacing his offense bumps him out of the top 4. I can't imagine either of those scenarios happening anytime soon.

Erixon is not going to come in and just replace Del Zotto in the top 4 without proving anything at the NHL level, that's not how it works. He has to show that he can be a more productive player than Del Zotto and earn that right. Have we not learned anything from last year's training camp when half the board wrongly assumed that Erixon will beat out Del Zotto?

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06-07-2012, 10:18 AM
  #879
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I don't think Del Zotto will be traded unless it's for another offensive defenseman that is a surefire upgrade, or a defenseman that is capable of replacing his offense bumps him out of the top 4. I can't imagine either of those scenarios happening anytime soon.

Erixon is not going to come in and just replace Del Zotto in the top 4 without proving anything at the NHL level, that's not how it works. He has to show that he can be a more productive player than Del Zotto and earn that right. Have we not learned anything from last year's training camp when half the board wrongly assumed that Erixon will beat out Del Zotto?
To be fair, I really think it is McDonagh who took DZ's spot if he were to get traded. The guy has offense that is yet to be seen and has the same lefty shot that DZ owns. DZ is clearly a second pairing D-man in this league and a PP QB. Problem is I think McDonagh is a first pairing D-man in this league and a PP QB who will play on the second pair due to Marc Staal being a freak of defense. DZ either plays on his off wing where he is totally ineffective on offense and especially defense or he plays on the third pair and is a waste of talent. I want them to be deep and like DZ as a Ranger, but its kind of silly to NOT trade the guy based upon what he can probably bring back in return.

With either Schultz (if Sather gets him, which he should) or Erixon primed to take the second line RD spot and provide a righty shot from the point on the PP, the Rangers have got their top 4 future defense lined up. The rest will be filled in with some combination of McIlrath (who really could provide something none of the other guys do and a physical specimen), Erixon/Schultz, free agent/Bickel/Stralman/Eminger.

I absolutely loved the New York Rangers of 1991-1992, my favorite team of all-time, but I don't think they would've won the cup without trading Turcotte, Amonte, Weight, Patrick, and others who I wanted to be Rangers their entire careers. By the same token, turn Dubi and DZ into a Bobby Ryan (my first choice) and it goes a long way towards transforming this team into a team that not only COULD win, but SHOULD win. Hopefully Slats gets that, I think he does.

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06-07-2012, 10:37 AM
  #880
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Good young D are very hard to find. Brent Burns went for Setogucchi,Coyle and #1. Burns had 1 year remaining on his contract at the time and was going to be a group 3 this summer before signing a long term extension in SJ. Setogucchi was inconsistent in Minny. Coyle will be a very good player. It was a late 1st last June. Goligoski brought back Neal and Niskannen. If the Rangers can sign Schultz and shows he is ready for a full-time role in the NHL and Erixon is ready for a full-time role,then the Rangers could possibly swap DZ for a top forward. They will still have a boatload of talent on D. They'll still have McIlrath developing in the AHL. What type of vet D are the Rangers adding? How much money does he make? Sauer is a great buy at $1.25M. The Rangers will have a hard time finding that quality of D for $1.25M.

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06-07-2012, 12:16 PM
  #881
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Originally Posted by Zuccarello Awesome View Post
Some of you refuse to criticize homegrown players. You make excuses for any and every flaw in their game. He's 21!!! Have some patience!! Next year, it'll be "he's only 22," then 23, then it'll be "defensemen really don't reach their peak til 28-30." You have to draw the line somewhere.
You cannot really ignore his age, however. Defensemen take time to develop.

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06-07-2012, 12:25 PM
  #882
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I think Michael Del Zotto is a perfect example of the hypocritical nature of Ranger fans. Everyone was clamoring for a youth movement in years past. When they bring up a kid at 19 years old directly from juniors playing the toughest position in hockey, which was WAY too soon. The kid, unsurprisingly has struggles, but then makes MASSIVE improvements in his third year.


But hey lets trade him away. We know how good he is going to be right now, despite improvements. He was dreadful in his FIRST playoffs where he was the second leading defensemen in points.

Nope, he is useless.

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06-07-2012, 12:27 PM
  #883
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I'd be okay with moving MDZ for a major upgrade but otherwise I think the Rangers should keep him.

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06-07-2012, 12:32 PM
  #884
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Originally Posted by bogans View Post
To be fair, I really think it is McDonagh who took DZ's spot if he were to get traded. The guy has offense that is yet to be seen and has the same lefty shot that DZ owns. DZ is clearly a second pairing D-man in this league and a PP QB. Problem is I think McDonagh is a first pairing D-man in this league and a PP QB who will play on the second pair due to Marc Staal being a freak of defense. DZ either plays on his off wing where he is totally ineffective on offense and especially defense or he plays on the third pair and is a waste of talent. I want them to be deep and like DZ as a Ranger, but its kind of silly to NOT trade the guy based upon what he can probably bring back in return.

With either Schultz (if Sather gets him, which he should) or Erixon primed to take the second line RD spot and provide a righty shot from the point on the PP, the Rangers have got their top 4 future defense lined up. The rest will be filled in with some combination of McIlrath (who really could provide something none of the other guys do and a physical specimen), Erixon/Schultz, free agent/Bickel/Stralman/Eminger.

I absolutely loved the New York Rangers of 1991-1992, my favorite team of all-time, but I don't think they would've won the cup without trading Turcotte, Amonte, Weight, Patrick, and others who I wanted to be Rangers their entire careers. By the same token, turn Dubi and DZ into a Bobby Ryan (my first choice) and it goes a long way towards transforming this team into a team that not only COULD win, but SHOULD win. Hopefully Slats gets that, I think he does.
You should post more. Very well said.

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06-07-2012, 12:35 PM
  #885
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You cannot really ignore his age, however. Defensemen take time to develop.
I agree. It's just that it seems like a lot of fans will use his age as the excuse to absolve him of any mistake he ever makes. At some point, you're supposed to learn from your mistakes and stop making the same ones.

And the bottom line is that DZ is a very skilled player. That is exactly WHY (thanks to our other top 3 defensemen being studs) I think using his value to acquire a dynamic top-6 forward who can improve our attack is a move worth exploring.

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06-07-2012, 12:42 PM
  #886
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Originally Posted by Blueshirt Believer View Post
I think Michael Del Zotto is a perfect example of the hypocritical nature of Ranger fans. Everyone was clamoring for a youth movement in years past. When they bring up a kid at 19 years old directly from juniors playing the toughest position in hockey, which was WAY too soon. The kid, unsurprisingly has struggles, but then makes MASSIVE improvements in his third year.


But hey lets trade him away. We know how good he is going to be right now, despite improvements. He was dreadful in his FIRST playoffs where he was the second leading defensemen in points.

Nope, he is useless.
Are you MDZ?

Why are you going off the deep end and PRETENDING that we're saying "MDZ SUCKS! TRADE HIM FOR A 7th ROUNDER!"

We acknowledge that he's a talented young defenseman who will continue to improve. That is WHY he has enough value around the league that we're discussing moving him to acquire a dynamic forward. If we thought he SUCKED like you keep insisting, then how could he bring back a talented top 6 forward in a trade?

You're making yourself like foolish by going to the extreme and putting words in people's mouths like "he's useless." Nobodys saying or implying that. Quite the opposite, in fact. He's young, has proven he can produce points, and is a RFA.

If he was right-handed, we wouldnt even be having this discussion, but Staal and McDonagh happen to be better than DZ at DEFENSE and they occupy the top two LD spots.

This team has a glaring need for a dynamic offensive catalyst or power forward.

MDZ packaged with another asset or two could very well bring back the player we need to put us over the top, and we have the defensive prospects to soften the blow of DZ's departure.

Stop overreacting, please.

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06-07-2012, 12:45 PM
  #887
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Originally Posted by Blueshirt Believer View Post
I think Michael Del Zotto is a perfect example of the hypocritical nature of Ranger fans. Everyone was clamoring for a youth movement in years past. When they bring up a kid at 19 years old directly from juniors playing the toughest position in hockey, which was WAY too soon. The kid, unsurprisingly has struggles, but then makes MASSIVE improvements in his third year.


But hey lets trade him away. We know how good he is going to be right now, despite improvements. He was dreadful in his FIRST playoffs where he was the second leading defensemen in points.

Nope, he is useless.
i agree that people overreact and sometimes are too quick to get down on players...but is really hypocritical toward the youth movement if you are looking to trade MDZ for a young forward AND then replace him with younger blueliners in erixon and schultz? its not like people are saying dump him and replace him with a 35 year old.

so overreaction to a bad playoff series that we might regret? yes. contradictory to the wanting kids to play? not really

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06-07-2012, 12:49 PM
  #888
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Originally Posted by Zuccarello Awesome View Post
Are you MDZ?

Why are you going off the deep end and PRETENDING that we're saying "MDZ SUCKS! TRADE HIM FOR A 7th ROUNDER!"

We acknowledge that he's a talented young defenseman who will continue to improve. That is WHY he has enough value around the league that we're discussing moving him to acquire a dynamic forward. If we thought he SUCKED like you keep insisting, then how could he bring back a talented top 6 forward in a trade?

You're making yourself like foolish by going to the extreme and putting words in people's mouths like "he's useless." Nobodys saying or implying that. Quite the opposite, in fact. He's young, has proven he can produce points, and is a RFA.

If he was right-handed, we wouldnt even be having this discussion, but Staal and McDonagh happen to be better than DZ at DEFENSE and they occupy the top two LD spots.

This team has a glaring need for a dynamic offensive catalyst or power forward.

MDZ packaged with another asset or two could very well bring back the player we need to put us over the top, and we have the defensive prospects to soften the blow of DZ's departure.

Stop overreacting, please.
Overreacting?! Did you read your previous post or the nonsense you keep posting about this kid. "He makes the worst defensive reads." blah blah blah. "you guys fall in love too much with homegrown players." rabble rabble rabble.

Meanwhile Dan Girardi, who isn't above making about three or 4 bad defensive plays a game, is completely absolved. Despite being more experienced.

The reality is Del Zotto is our only proven PMD on this team. Nobody on this team moves the puck as well as him yet. Maybe Erixon might turn into that guy, but then again he may not. He has certainly been more protected than Del Zotto was in his rookie season.

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06-07-2012, 12:55 PM
  #889
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Originally Posted by Blueshirt Believer View Post
Overreacting?! Did you read your previous post or the nonsense you keep posting about this kid. "He makes the worst defensive reads." blah blah blah. "you guys fall in love too much with homegrown players." rabble rabble rabble.

Meanwhile Dan Girardi, who isn't above making about three or 4 bad defensive plays a game, is completely absolved. Despite being more experienced.

The reality is Del Zotto is our only proven PMD on this team.
Nobody on this team moves the puck as well as him yet. Maybe Erixon might turn into that guy, but then again he may not. He has certainly been more protected than Del Zotto was in his rookie season.

what does that mean though? i can find a sandwich in a garbage can does that make it a Diner? MDZ played a huge role in THREE straight post season losses.

he was offensive alright.

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06-07-2012, 12:57 PM
  #890
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what does that mean though? i can find a sandwich in a garbage can does that make it a Diner? MDZ played a huge role in THREE straight post season losses.

he was offensive alright.
And he also played a big role in the 8 wins before that.

The only thing that's offensive is how short-sighted some Rangers fans are when it comes to MDZ.

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06-07-2012, 01:12 PM
  #891
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Originally Posted by Blueshirt Believer View Post
Overreacting?! Did you read your previous post or the nonsense you keep posting about this kid. "He makes the worst defensive reads." blah blah blah. "you guys fall in love too much with homegrown players." rabble rabble rabble.

Meanwhile Dan Girardi, who isn't above making about three or 4 bad defensive plays a game, is completely absolved. Despite being more experienced.

The reality is Del Zotto is our only proven PMD on this team. Nobody on this team moves the puck as well as him yet. Maybe Erixon might turn into that guy, but then again he may not. He has certainly been more protected than Del Zotto was in his rookie season.
Who said Girardi is absolved? Again, you just MAKE things up! Hysterical.

Girardi made a boneheaded play on the season-ending goal. I called him out for it.

But the difference is clear. Girardi plays 30 minutes a night against the best offensive players on the other team. His mistakes in the Devils series were likely because he was exhausted, burned out, and banged up. And most of the time, Girardi is as sound as defensemen get in their own zone.

Del Zotto, on the other hand, made unforced mistakes under minimal pressure. He often fumbled the puck with NOBODY on him. And DZ plays a lot against the other teams 3rd and 4th lines, doesn't kill penalties, and gets a good amount of his minutes on the powerplay where defensemen rarely have to defend at all.

DZ making unforced errors against Steve Bernier and Ryan Carter is quite different than Girardi making a mistake during a scramble with Kovalchuk and Henrique in front of the net.

McDonagh "moves the puck" just as well as Del Zotto. Does he have the offensive instincts DZ does? Maybe, maybe not. But he hasn't been asked to be that offensive defensemen that DZ has, so it's not the best comparison. I see untapped offensive potential in both McD and Staal. Girardi is very good at getting pucks through from the point/boards.

DZ is not our only PMD.

Even Stralman was more noticeable in a good way than DZ for games at a time this post-season. I have no idea why the Rangers wouldnt want to bring him back on the cheap. (if that is accurate)

For the hundredth time, we're not advocating trading DZ because we need him gone. We want to use his value to bring back the young dynamic winger that we desperately need. If no such winger is available via trade, then by all means, we should keep DZ.

But to hang on to him and play him as our 3rd left defenseman, and refuse to fill this teams most glaring need is poor asset management.

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06-07-2012, 02:08 PM
  #892
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MDZ is 22 and will get smarter and stronger in the next few years. We've already seen him get stronger and wallop some players bigger than him. I'll be sick if they deal him. Tim Erixon is virtually the same age and has a bigger body, yet has been deemed too physically weak to play in the NHL. There is no guarantee that this kid is going to get appreciably stronger, and there is a chance that he might lose speed/agility at the cost of bulking up. It remains to be seen that he will be a solid top 4 d-man. Yet, there are a bunch of NYR fans who desperately want him to replace MDZ. smh

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06-07-2012, 02:21 PM
  #893
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MDZ is 22 and will get smarter and stronger in the next few years. We've already seen him get stronger and wallop some players bigger than him. I'll be sick if they deal him. Tim Erixon is virtually the same age and has a bigger body, yet has been deemed too physically weak to play in the NHL. There is no guarantee that this kid is going to get appreciably stronger, and there is a chance that he might lose speed/agility at the cost of bulking up. It remains to be seen that he will be a solid top 4 d-man. Yet, there are a bunch of NYR fans who desperately want him to replace MDZ. smh
You do realize that MDZ is the THIRD left defensemen on the depth chart, right?

He's certainly not supplanting Staal or McDonagh.

So yea, if Erixon "replaces" DZ, he'd be on the third pair at even strength. Where else should a rookie defenseman ideally start his career?

Lots of players are good. You can't be blind and fall in love with every single player and refuse to trade anyone who is good.

First of all, that mentality means that you'd only want to trade someone who ISN'T good. The problem with that is nobody wants players who aren't good so they have no trade value.

Secondly, you have to give to get. DZ as the centerpiece of a package can definitely bring back a talented top 6 winger. That's a bigger need for us than defense, right now.

We have Lundqvist, Staal, McDonagh, Girardi.

Where are those types of names in our top 6?

Richards, Gaborik, ____________

That's it.

And Gaborik cannot be relied on. He's already out til December, most likely.

Kreider is still a rookie. Can't rely on him to carry the load.

Callahan is great, but ideally he's a THIRD liner on a championship team! He can definitely play the second line, but he lacks the creativity to CARRY a line.

So again, who is going to carry the load offensively? Richards by himself?

We NEED 1-2 creative offensive catalysts. Guys that attack the middle of the ice. Guys who can beat the first defender and create space for himself and his teammates. Guys who are a threat to create a scoring chance every time they have the puck.

If Del Zotto can help fill that need (and I believe he can) then you HAVE to at least explore that option. It's as simple as that.

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06-07-2012, 02:32 PM
  #894
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MDZ is 22 and will get smarter and stronger in the next few years. We've already seen him get stronger and wallop some players bigger than him. I'll be sick if they deal him. Tim Erixon is virtually the same age and has a bigger body, yet has been deemed too physically weak to play in the NHL. There is no guarantee that this kid is going to get appreciably stronger, and there is a chance that he might lose speed/agility at the cost of bulking up. It remains to be seen that he will be a solid top 4 d-man. Yet, there are a bunch of NYR fans who desperately want him to replace MDZ. smh
They will get more for DZ. Pitt got Neal for Goligoski. DZ is better player than Goligoski.

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06-07-2012, 02:47 PM
  #895
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Here's what I'm getting at: Dubinksy, Erixon, and a 1st for Rick Nash. Columbus HAS to move him and won't come close to what they were asking several months ago. I'd even throw in Stepan if Columbus could give us back a decent center with speed.

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06-07-2012, 02:54 PM
  #896
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Here's what I'm getting at: Dubinksy, Erixon, and a 1st for Rick Nash. Columbus HAS to move him and won't come close to what they were asking several months ago. I'd even throw in Stepan if Columbus could give us back a decent center with speed.
Not sure that gets it done. Basically you're asking Columbus to trade their franchise player for 1 roster player (an under-performing and inconsistent one at that) a prospect that has virtually no NHL experience (although he might be very good) and a late 1st round pick. I don't see them going for that. Not that I care mind you...but I have to believe they can get a better deal elsewhere.

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06-07-2012, 03:19 PM
  #897
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People are really forgetting something: Erixon hasn't proven to be anything yet. He played in the AHL last season. He has potential. Del Zotto is a top 4 NHL defenseman who has gone through the playoffs, been through 3 tough seasons and has come out in good shape. We cannot say the same about Erixon.

Also, Goligoski was not traded in the offseason. He was a mid season trade when the Penguins found out they had a lot more depth on their hands and that Goligoski would get them something they could improve up front with. He also got them back a bottom pairing defender as well.

I will still not trade MDZ even for an upgrade in the top 6 until Erixon proves himself to be an NHL player and the bottom pairing is stabilized. If they can get a Golisgoski type trade (DZ for top 6 forward + bottom pairing defender) after Erixon has shown he can be something, you have to look at it.

This team has a chance to do something special next season and you have to explore your options, but MDZ will be on this team unless Erixon can play at the NHL level 3rd pairing AND they get someone to fill out to the top 4, whether it be Sauer coming back (unlikely), Schultz coming in and playing at a high level (more likely), McIlrath being more ready than we though (least likely) or a vet comes in and plays well in that spot (possible).

It'd be hard to replace MDZ with Erixon/Schultz because we have no knowledge on how they will handle a top 4 role or if they are capable at it at this point in their careers. They both need to play at the NHL level before you can even think about putting them in MDZ's spot (1st/2nd PP, top 4 minutes).

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06-07-2012, 03:29 PM
  #898
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They will get more for DZ. Pitt got Neal for Goligoski. DZ is better player than Goligoski.
You kind of have to find a special situation like Pittsburgh did, though. Dallas was desperate for a puck mover and as I recall, they didn't exactly see Neal as a 40 goal 80 point player like he was last year. I doubt they would have given him up that cheap if they thought they could get that kind of production from him.

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06-07-2012, 03:35 PM
  #899
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You kind of have to find a special situation like Pittsburgh did, though. Dallas was desperate for a puck mover and as I recall, they didn't exactly see Neal as a 40 goal 80 point player like he was last year. I doubt they would have given him up that cheap if they thought they could get that kind of production from him.
Playing with Malkin as a regular linemate doesn't hurt either--nor being on the first pwp unit with Crosby, Malkin and Letang. Teams will focus on Crosby and Malkin more than they will on Neal but those two guys can still set him up and Letang with his bombs from the point make the Pittsburgh pwp even more dangerous. They have so many options and Neal is one of the main beneficiary's of at least two outstanding players. He wouldn't put up those same kind of numbers in Dallas.

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06-07-2012, 03:38 PM
  #900
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MDZ is 22 and will get smarter and stronger in the next few years. We've already seen him get stronger and wallop some players bigger than him. I'll be sick if they deal him. Tim Erixon is virtually the same age and has a bigger body, yet has been deemed too physically weak to play in the NHL. There is no guarantee that this kid is going to get appreciably stronger, and there is a chance that he might lose speed/agility at the cost of bulking up. It remains to be seen that he will be a solid top 4 d-man. Yet, there are a bunch of NYR fans who desperately want him to replace MDZ. smh
Stronger? Yes
Experienced? Yep
Smarter? Jury's out on that one.

Rangers are probably going to move a good player or two to get a better player in their eyes.

That good player may be MDZ.

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