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Old
06-07-2012, 03:16 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
They also traded for Jeff Carter and promoted King and Nolan from their farm team. As Sutter himself said, it allowed him to play the system he wanted to play the way he wanted to play it. It gave him size tyhrought the lineup. EVERY single line had at least one huge player if not two. Lets not pretend he waived a magic wand and turned the struggling Kings around without those additions. They were playing at the same level prior to having those players added.


Sutter also never dealt with any major injuries to his top players. One guy was injured (Gagne) and he was replaced at the deadline with Carter.

He also has pieces to work with that we don't, particularly up front. Namely having Kopitar and Richards as his top two centers. We have nothing remotely equivilant.

It drives me nut we posters make such simplistic statements as the Kings changed their coach and look where they are now. The situations aren'tr remotely comparable. Its fine if you want to fire Lindy but its ridiculous to compare our situion to LA's and think firing Ruff will yield the same results. No coach wins without having the players.
If you look at the Player Usage charts, you will see statistical evidence of Ruff being a pathetic coach. He uses his players at all the wrong times. Good coaches know how to utilize each players strength and put them in play at the exact right moments.

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06-07-2012, 03:36 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Awwufelloff View Post
Nearly every good team near the salary cap has that record with few injuries...Injuries are going to happen next year as well...We going to blame them every year? No...No other GMS do that. Simply for the reason that every team has injuries throughout the year. The teams that make excuses don't make the playoffs, the teams that persevere win...simply as that. It starts with the coach making necessary adjustments to compliment the players that are healthy enough to play.
Oh please. Making the playoffs is not winning. Winning the Cup is winning.

The Pens and Philly were expected to win the Cup. They were favorites and both of them failed this year and were not "winning". Making it farther than the Sabres is not "winning" when you are more talented. Or were the Sabres "winning" when they made the playoffs the previous two years even though they lost in the first round?

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06-07-2012, 03:40 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Awwufelloff View Post
If you look at the Player Usage charts, you will see statistical evidence of Ruff being a pathetic coach. He uses his players at all the wrong times. Good coaches know how to utilize each players strength and put them in play at the exact right moments.
Ruff's skill as a coach is a seperate discussion.


Injuries without question impacted our ability to make the playoffs last season. We need to add more talent to overcome injuries to the defense. In particular we need to add up front.

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06-07-2012, 03:50 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Oh please. Making the playoffs is not winning. Winning the Cup is winning.

The Pens and Philly were expected to win the Cup. They were favorites and both of them failed this year and were not "winning". Making it farther than the Sabres is not "winning" when you are more talented. Or were the Sabres "winning" when they made the playoffs the previous two years even though they lost in the first round?
Anything can happen once your in the playoffs. I don't buy "favorites" when entering them. Proof is this year where the 6th seed and 8th seed are in the Stanley. I consider any year making the playoffs a success. Many of teams making the playoffs dealt with many injuries. Obviously they played a role, but can't blame it on them entirely.

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06-07-2012, 03:50 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by hockey18 View Post
YOu can use the flyers and penquins for starters. Sabres didn't play that well when they had everyone. They quit on the season . the young players came along and carried them along with a healthy miller
Neither the Pens nor the Flyers overcome their injuires. Both fell far short of what they were favorites to compete for. So I'll ask again who are all of these teams overcoming major injury issues and winning?

The team currently poised to hoist the Cup has had minimal to no injury issues to deal with.

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06-07-2012, 03:58 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Awwufelloff View Post
Anything can happen once your in the playoffs. I don't buy "favorites" when entering them. Proof is this year where the 6th seed and 8th seed are in the Stanley. I consider any year making the playoffs a success. Many of teams making the playoffs dealt with many injuries. Obviously they played a role, but can't blame it on them entirely.
So the previous two season were a success for the Sabres? Do you even realize how convoluted you're getting to avoid accepting the fact that injuries can play a big role in the success of a team. Do you think anyone on here would consider a season like Vancouver's a success? Or do you think most, including you, would be ripping the team, coaches and GM for losing in the 1st round?

Philly and the Pens both underachieved this year. Thats not really debateable.

As for anything can happen; While true to an extent, you still have to have the players. If they're out injured or you just dont have them on the roster, its not likely you will win.

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06-07-2012, 04:14 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
So the previous two season were a success for the Sabres? Do you even realize how convoluted you're getting to avoid accepting the fact that injuries can play a big role in the success of a team. Do you think anyone on here would consider a season like Vancouver's a success? Or do you think most, including you, would be ripping the team, coaches and GM for losing in the 1st round?

Philly and the Pens both underachieved this year. Thats not really debateable.

As for anything can happen; While true to an extent, you still have to have the players. If they're out injured or you just dont have them on the roster, its not likely you will win.
http://sports.nationalpost.com/2012/...ost-to-injury/

Yeah Injuries mean a lot... There is no correlation between man games lost and games won last year. Its a complete splatter plot...

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06-07-2012, 04:20 PM
  #33
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I can't agree more with joshjull. Nobody wants to be on record saying that injuries are an excuse, but they sure as hell matter a great deal. Buffalo has been a team that can complete if they have all hands on deck and firing on all cylinders. Without that they don't have the depth to make up the difference. Not many teams do either. The Crosby argument is weak when there's Malkin and Staal behind him, no other major injury problems, and a 1st rd exit to show as proof of how they "overcame" it. Just look back at teams over each season that lost over 300 man games and see how far they went. I'll leave that for other more motivated people but the list of teams like that, that even made it to the conference finals, has to be slim.

Obviously Buffalo needs better talent, coaching, etc, but to say injuries didn't matter is simply ignoring reality or expecting Weber, Brennan, McNabb, etc to somehow get pushed up the depth chart and handle the same minutes and assignments as Myers and Ehrhoff. Accepting that injuries make a difference is not to be/sound wimpy or weak...it's just accepting reality.

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06-07-2012, 04:26 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Awwufelloff View Post
http://sports.nationalpost.com/2012/...ost-to-injury/

Yeah Injuries mean a lot... There is no correlation between man games lost and games won last year. Its a complete splatter plot...
I would like to agree if that really proved much, but unfortunately we would need more info about which players and how often they had groups of players out for the same games. I know Buffalo's problems stemmed from some really sloppy defense that showed BEFORE injuries piled up, but the injuries greatly slowed down the time it took to get their @#$% together. It's just one part of the equation, but it doesn't mean they're really a Cup contender. There's more work for Regier to do and I'm sure joshjull would agree.

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06-07-2012, 04:51 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Sabresfansince1980 View Post
I would like to agree if that really proved much, but unfortunately we would need more info about which players and how often they had groups of players out for the same games. I know Buffalo's problems stemmed from some really sloppy defense that showed BEFORE injuries piled up, but the injuries greatly slowed down the time it took to get their @#$% together. It's just one part of the equation, but it doesn't mean they're really a Cup contender. There's more work for Regier to do and I'm sure joshjull would agree.
Agreed. We played basically 2 consecutive months of hockey missing anywhere between 7 and 9 regulars, including Myers, Ennis and Miller. To pretend that those players contributions could easily be replaced by our AHL call-ups is just...no. Before anyone blames the vets who were in the line-ups, I'd like to remind you that, through those injuries in the first half of the season, Vanek and Pominville were tearing it up.

More organizational depth? Yeah, that would help. But every team needs their best players to be their best players if they want to win games regularly. McNabb is wonderful; he's not going to step in and replace Tyler Myers. Enroth is a fine young goalie; he's not shown himself to be capable of stealing games for the team like Miller has. Ennis' speed and creativity just don't exist in any other player we have. Those guys missing time hurt us. It's not an excuse, it's a fact.

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06-07-2012, 05:14 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Awwufelloff View Post
http://sports.nationalpost.com/2012/...ost-to-injury/

Yeah Injuries mean a lot... There is no correlation between man games lost and games won last year. Its a complete splatter plot...

It's already been said it doesn't account for which player is out. Some teams lose Myers and Ehrhoff...some teams lose a Cody McCormick.

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06-07-2012, 06:03 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Awwufelloff View Post
http://sports.nationalpost.com/2012/...ost-to-injury/

Yeah Injuries mean a lot... There is no correlation between man games lost and games won last year. Its a complete splatter plot...
That's not true. You can't take two pieces of statistical data, cross reference them, and come to that conclusion in an interactively complex system like the NHL. Off the top of my head, data that isn't being considered in that chart:

- Which players are injured? What is their importance to the team?
- Clusters. Are players being injured in clusters, or are they spread out over time?
- Team depth at injury positions. What type of depth do teams with injuries have at those positions?
- Style of play. Does the team play a style that requires specific types of player, or uses similar style players. Defensive, trap, offensive style?
- Competition. What teams are being played, in which division, at what time? What was their injury status? What was their status before injuries?

It's far, far too complex to capture in that single chart.

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06-07-2012, 06:14 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Awwufelloff View Post
http://sports.nationalpost.com/2012/...ost-to-injury/

Yeah Injuries mean a lot... There is no correlation between man games lost and games won last year. Its a complete splatter plot...
not exactly true.

just throwing this out there for discussion.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg man-games lost.jpg‎ (31.3 KB, 25 views)

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06-07-2012, 06:17 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Dixon Ward View Post
not exactly true.

just throwing this out there for discussion.
Put the bottom chart in increments of 5 or 10 instead of 50!

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06-07-2012, 06:23 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Awwufelloff View Post
Put the bottom chart in increments of 5 or 10 instead of 50!
why? it's not going to change the shape of the data or the linear trend-line. it's just going to make the axis labels illegible.

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06-07-2012, 06:29 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Dixon Ward View Post
why? it's not going to change the shape of the data or the linear trend-line. it's just going to make the axis labels illegible.
It will show a scatter plot since if you look at the data its all over the place. St Louis has more man games lost yet almost won Presidents trophy. They have ZERO star players. For those who say Pitts + Philly can win despite injuries because they have a plethora of star players.

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06-07-2012, 06:35 PM
  #42
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The axis labels are irrelevant.

The real question is what the r^2 value for the trendline is. That will tell you how well the trendline fits the data, and I'd guess just looking at that data that the r^2 is not all that strong.

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06-07-2012, 06:37 PM
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06-07-2012, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by LoveDaSwords View Post
The axis labels are irrelevant.

The real question is what the r^2 value for the trendline is. That will tell you how well the trendline fits the data, and I'd guess just looking at that data that the r^2 is not all that strong.
Your right...Here we go....



y = -1.1168x + 311.33
RČ = 0.0193

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06-07-2012, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by LoveDaSwords View Post
The axis labels are irrelevant.

The real question is what the r^2 value for the trendline is. That will tell you how well the trendline fits the data, and I'd guess just looking at that data that the r^2 is not all that strong.
it's very small.

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06-07-2012, 06:55 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Awwufelloff View Post
It will show a scatter plot since if you look at the data its all over the place. St Louis has more man games lost yet almost won Presidents trophy. They have ZERO star players. For those who say Pitts + Philly can win despite injuries because they have a plethora of star players.
Maybe the Blues were able to continue winning because they had a system that didn't require star players?

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06-07-2012, 06:59 PM
  #47
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On spending on players: "I don't make decisions based foremost on money. The first thing, the main thing we look at, is what the player's contributions are, and what his gifts are. I've never made a decision about money. It may seem hard to believe, but it's true."
I believe every word of that statement.

As for his player "involvement", I feel the same about it now as I always have. Indifferent. I read a lot of posts from fans that are concerned about how much attention he pays to it. Those same fans would be just as critical if he asked about his players once a month as opposed to three times a day. Fact is, we don't know what is a normal amount of involvement to compare Mr. Pegula's vigilance with. Three calls a day might seem obsessive, until you read about the Kings owners calling their GM 10 times a day. We simply don't have anything to measure it against.

Whatever the case may be, with the money he's spent, he can have their stool tested to monitor their diets for all I care. He's earned the right to be concerned about his team, more than any of us can possibly comprehend.

If he wants to model himself after the owners of the Steelers, Red Wings, and Patriots. He has to first learn how to act like a winer. What I'm saying is, don't be boastful. Don't be critical. And don't say what you want to become. Instead, simply become it. Those franchise owners aren't winers because they set out to be like somebody else. They set out to win. They work hard at it. They surround themselves with like minded individuals. They believe in something BIGGER than themselves. They don't feel entitled to win, they feel honored to serve the franchise. The owners of those teams put their logos BEFORE themselves, and they treat the Entity that is their franchise as a family member that is loved as such by millions. It's not a popularity contest, it's about WINNING. When that philosophy takes root, it grows taller than the other trees in the forrest.

The Steeler fan in me likes what he sees. The Rooneys are smart, they know the game of football better than most managers that other owners put their faith in. And at no time is it more evident than on draft day. When they draft a player, they know exactly what role he will play when he has matured. They leave nothing to chance. I see a lot of those same tendencies with Darcy Regier's scouting staff, and the player development. It's not luck, it's informative decision making. I don't agree with some of the moves Mr. Regier has made, but he just knows hockey.

An example of the Steelers would be a player they picked a few years ago. They knew they would need a deep threat receiver. The Raiders took the flashy high profile kid in round two. The Steelers found an even faster one in round 4. Steeler Nation laughed at the Raiders and it's nothing new, they simply find the best players, and the best fits for what they need. Many of their practice squad guys are better than many teams starters. They just know football.

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06-07-2012, 07:02 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Awwufelloff View Post
Put the bottom chart in increments of 5 or 10 instead of 50!
There we go! Just change the axis interval. Proof positive.

No doubt that a few folks on here are into statistical analysis, and can show numerous different ways that the data points correlate, or do not. The problem is that you're using a systematic, linear process to explain a non-linear, systemic situation.

Chart looks neat. . . doesn't explain reality.

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06-07-2012, 07:04 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by TehDoak View Post
Sorry, but if Pittsburgh can put together a team good enough to win without Crosby, the Sabres have 0 excuses.

If the Sabres finished in the bottom 5 in the league for 5 years in a row, they wouldn't need excuses either.

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06-07-2012, 07:07 PM
  #50
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it's very small.
0.0193 is basically saying "no correlation"...actually weaker than I thought, I was expecting it to be in the .3-.4 range

Nice try though.

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