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2012 CBJ Offseason Part II (Proposals? Speculation? Blog Rumors? Right here.)

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Old
06-07-2012, 04:13 PM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EspenK View Post
Schneider if he was somehow eligible for the draft could very well be the number 2 (if not the number 1) pick. If Vancouver would do it, I'd be very tempted to do the deal straight up. Of course I'd have to make sure Schneider was signed somewhat long term before the deal. I don't think the pluses should thwart the deal.
lolwhat? If Roberto Luongo was eligible for the draft he'd go first overall as well. What in gods creation does that have to do with anything? A goalie isn't worth trading a top 5 pick for alone. They need to send something else our way either there 1st round pick or someone like Mason Raymond. If they want Nash they can send us Kesler and there first. Tell R.J. to get over his whiny ass feud or get the **** out after the trade.

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06-07-2012, 05:53 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Doug61 View Post
lolwhat? If Roberto Luongo was eligible for the draft he'd go first overall as well. What in gods creation does that have to do with anything? A goalie isn't worth trading a top 5 pick for alone. They need to send something else our way either there 1st round pick or someone like Mason Raymond. If they want Nash they can send us Kesler and there first. Tell R.J. to get over his whiny ass feud or get the **** out after the trade.
So you are saying that a goalie isn't worth drafting in the top 5, even though he is NHL proven (albeit in a minimum amount of games). You must be reading too many articles about wasting a top pick on a goalie. If they would trade a signed Schneider for the 2 I'd seriously consider it. Would you trade the pick straight up for Quick?

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06-07-2012, 06:05 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by EspenK View Post
So you are saying that a goalie isn't worth drafting in the top 5, even though he is NHL proven (albeit in a minimum amount of games). You must be reading too many articles about wasting a top pick on a goalie. If they would trade a signed Schneider for the 2 I'd seriously consider it. Would you trade the pick straight up for Quick?
Schneider/Quick

Apples/Oranges

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06-07-2012, 06:12 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by EspenK View Post
So you are saying that a goalie isn't worth drafting in the top 5, even though he is NHL proven (albeit in a minimum amount of games). You must be reading too many articles about wasting a top pick on a goalie. If they would trade a signed Schneider for the 2 I'd seriously consider it. Would you trade the pick straight up for Quick?
lol, you are reaching so far it's ridiculous. You are comparing a goalie who is about to win the cup to a guy with less than a seasons worth of games in experience. There are very few goalies in the league that are worth a top 5 pick, and Schneider is far from one of them. First it's if a 25 year old could be drafted this year he would go top 2, which he wouldn't and now it's comparing him to Quick, what's next, Rick Nash was a #1 pick, Schneider stopped a Nash shot, therefore Schneider is worth more than the #1 pick/Nash?

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06-07-2012, 06:37 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Doug61 View Post
lol, you are reaching so far it's ridiculous. You are comparing a goalie who is about to win the cup to a guy with less than a seasons worth of games in experience. There are very few goalies in the league that are worth a top 5 pick, and Schneider is far from one of them. First it's if a 25 year old could be drafted this year he would go top 2, which he wouldn't and now it's comparing him to Quick, what's next, Rick Nash was a #1 pick, Schneider stopped a Nash shot, therefore Schneider is worth more than the #1 pick/Nash?

Kind of hard to have a discussion with someone who always changes the point. I am not comparing the two just trying to see if you would ever trade the #2 for a goalie.

Simple questions


Would you ever spend the #2 on a goalie?

Would you trade the #2 even up for a signed Schneider?

Would you trade the #2 straight up for Quick?

Answers allowed are yes or no.

Mine are

Yes
Yes
Yes

I just think that sometimes you have to think outside of the box. If you truly build a team from the goal out, how do you not consider taking (trading for) a potential 10 year starting goalie (based on his limited NHL experience) over an 18 or 19 year old kid who may or may not bust.
Granted Schneider may be the next Mason, but he could be the next Brodeur too. Risk/reward. Lots of highly ranked forwards come out every year. Not so with goalies.

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06-07-2012, 06:39 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadman View Post
Schneider/Quick

Apples/Oranges
True. But the question wasn't about comparing them. It was would you trade the #2 straight up for either of them?

Yes or No?

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06-07-2012, 06:40 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EspenK View Post
Kind of hard to have a discussion with someone who always changes the point. I am not comparing the two just trying to see if you would ever trade the #2 for a goalie.

Simple questions


Would you ever spend the #2 on a goalie?

Would you trade the #2 even up for a signed Schneider?

Would you trade the #2 straight up for Quick?

Answers allowed are yes or no.

Mine are

Yes
Yes
Yes

I just think that sometimes you have to think outside of the box. If you truly build a team from the goal out, how do you not consider taking (trading for) a potential 10 year starting goalie (based on his limited NHL experience) over an 18 or 19 year old kid who may or may not bust.
Granted Schneider may be the next Mason, but he could be the next Brodeur too. Risk/reward. Lots of highly ranked forwards come out every year. Not so with goalies.
Changing what point? You are saying that Schneider is worth the #2 pick. I'm disagreeing. You are backing up your opinion with outlandish comparisons. Colorado thought outside the box and gave up a lot for a goalie that didn't do them any good, I don't think it would be wise to trade the #2 straight up for Schneider in the least.

Regardless we were talking about Schneider you chose to single out bad wording on my part, there are 3 goalies in the league I'd trade the #2 pick for, Lundqvist, Rinne, and Quick. Schneider isn't even in the same ballpark right now as those 3.

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06-07-2012, 06:52 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by EspenK View Post
True. But the question wasn't about comparing them. It was would you trade the #2 straight up for either of them?

Yes or No?
Quick... Yes

Schneider ... No

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06-07-2012, 09:52 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadman View Post
Quick... Yes

Schneider ... No
Fair enough.

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06-07-2012, 09:56 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug61 View Post
Changing what point? You are saying that Schneider is worth the #2 pick. I'm disagreeing. You are backing up your opinion with outlandish comparisons. Colorado thought outside the box and gave up a lot for a goalie that didn't do them any good, I don't think it would be wise to trade the #2 straight up for Schneider in the least.

Regardless we were talking about Schneider you chose to single out bad wording on my part, there are 3 goalies in the league I'd trade the #2 pick for, Lundqvist, Rinne, and Quick. Schneider isn't even in the same ballpark right now as those 3.
Ok, So you can't say yes or no, but at least you are clear.

And just one more thing- Whoever the #2 turns out to be, he isn't in the same class as (insert the best 3 at his position) right now either. So whichever way the Jackets go there is risk associated just as there is potential reward.

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06-07-2012, 09:58 PM
  #61
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I would answer Yes to both.

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06-07-2012, 11:01 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EspenK View Post
Kind of hard to have a discussion with someone who always changes the point. I am not comparing the two just trying to see if you would ever trade the #2 for a goalie.

Simple questions


Would you ever spend the #2 on a goalie?

Would you trade the #2 even up for a signed Schneider?

Would you trade the #2 straight up for Quick?

Answers allowed are yes or no.

Mine are

Yes
Yes
Yes

I just think that sometimes you have to think outside of the box. If you truly build a team from the goal out, how do you not consider taking (trading for) a potential 10 year starting goalie (based on his limited NHL experience) over an 18 or 19 year old kid who may or may not bust.
Granted Schneider may be the next Mason, but he could be the next Brodeur too. Risk/reward. Lots of highly ranked forwards come out every year. Not so with goalies.
My answers?

Possibly
No
Possibly

To spend the #2 pick on anyone, he'd damn well better have about a 90% chance of being a perennial All-Star player. If that potential is not there, fall back and either accumulate picks or move it for someone who does have that potential (or is there already). Standing pat at #2 and picking someone who tops out at even a half-notch below All-Star level isn't something I would do.

In the case of Schneider, who has the only emphatic answer from me in this scenario, it's very simple. I don't think he's proved any more at the NHL level than any of a number of other more lightly-regarded goalies have. I think he's overrated for two reasons:
1) He's in Vancouver, and
2) He's backing up a perennial whipping boy in Luongo. Vancouver fans went through years of a Dan Cloutier/Alex Auld combo, where every save was an adventure and every shot stood a good chance of ending up in the back of the net.

This year, there were 10 goalies younger than Schneider who saw a decent amount of action. Those are Carey Price, Ondrej Pavelec, Semyon Varlamov, Devan Dubnyk, Steve Mason, Michal Neuvirth, James Reimer, Sergei Bobrovsky, Tuukka Rask, and Jhonas Enroth. Enroth is the only one who has less career games than Schneider, and Schneider is older than all of them.

Goalies who are both younger and played fewer than 20 games this year (and will be either backups or rotating starters next year) are Jonathan Bernier, Anders Lindback, Matt Hackett, Ben Bishop, Braden Holtby, Jacob Markstrom, Leland Irving, Robin Lehner, Dustin Tokarski, and Kevin Poulin. Every one of those guys is younger than Schneider.

So the real question isn't "how much should we shell out for Schneider", it's "what really separates Schneider from the rest of this pack of 20 goalies?" They're all younger, in some cases multiple years younger. When they're as old as what Schneider is now, will they be better, worse, or the same?

And then the other question is, where were these goalies drafted? Those aren't exactly a group of elite prospects coming into the league, with the exception of Carey Price. There are some late first-rounders in there, but a bunch who went late in the draft. That's in the last 6-7 years that all these guys were picked...so again, why Schneider?

Understand where I'm coming from. I'm in the midst of a project to compile all the expansion draft unprotected lists from 1991-2000, and part of that is digging through various shenanigans. Teams exposed players who had long since retired, and in some cases were actively coaching somewhere. They'd do the usual business of "take this guy, and we'll make it worth your while". So one thing I'm doing is being constantly reminded of exactly how comparable this situation is to Mike Dunham and Martin Brodeur in 1996 and 1997. 10 times, New Jersey put Dunham in net just to get him games played credits specifically for the 1998 expansion draft...5 of those appearances were for one single shift. It got nasty; there was talk of arbitration and of lawsuits because of how New Jersey was doing this. Finally the league got fed up and adjusted the expansion draft rules to basically force Dunham to be eligible, and he was taken by Nashville. His career didn't come close to what was expected; he was decent, but not much more than that.

Now, would you give up a #2 overall pick in any draft to get a goalie who's merely serviceable?

Oh, and I forget...at the time of the expansion draft, Dunham was younger than what Schneider is right now.


Last edited by Mayor Bee: 06-07-2012 at 11:09 PM.
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Old
06-07-2012, 11:30 PM
  #63
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MB, I always love your in depth posts, as they always shed new light on the situation, but may I ask how long they typically take you to write up?

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06-08-2012, 12:47 AM
  #64
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MB, I always love your in depth posts, as they always shed new light on the situation, but may I ask how long they typically take you to write up?
Well, that depends on a few factors. There are some topics that I just avoid for one reason or another. I do tend to end up in ones where there are ridiculous ideas likely to be bandied about, which is why you'll find my name in the trade board threads. No shortage of ridiculousity coming from there...

Also consider that I usually have 8-10 tabs or windows open on my browser at a given time, and possibly other programs as well. This slows down my actual post time; I can't tell you how many times I'll wrap up three at about the same time, then have to twiddle my thumbs waiting because flood control is on.

It also depends on how much information can be brought to the table. I'm an absolute information junkie; I'd either be an exceptional teacher or a poor one. Exceptional because I'd be teaching students how to approach a subject from all points, how to argue logically, and how to realize that you're very rarely going to have an ironclad argument because even poor debaters are at least within a mile of the truth. Poor because I'd probably never really get to the point. I'm the end result of what happens when you take a borderline autistic child (in a time when, if you could function socially to even a moderate extent, you were fine), put him in a room full of various non-fiction books, and see him spend his free time elbows-deep in information.

[TL;DR answer]

Anywhere from 3-5 minutes, tops. In this case, there was an edit thrown in there, but only because I realized I hadn't tied up everything with a Mike Dunham comparison. The 1990s actually saw several backup goalies who were regarded as starting caliber elsewhere from that situation....Corey Hirsch, J-S Aubin, Damian Rhodes, Jamie McLennan, Peter Skudra, Marcel Cousineau, Robbie Tallas, and the list goes on.

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06-08-2012, 07:26 AM
  #65
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I do tend to end up in ones where there are ridiculous ideas likely to be bandied about,

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06-08-2012, 08:58 AM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gojackets1 View Post
MB, I always love your in depth posts, as they always shed new light on the situation, but may I ask how long they typically take you to write up?
I don't know how long it takes to write them, but on average it takes 2.26 hours of thought and analysis to understand them.

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06-08-2012, 09:31 AM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
My answers?

Possibly
No
Possibly

To spend the #2 pick on anyone, he'd damn well better have about a 90% chance of being a perennial All-Star player. If that potential is not there, fall back and either accumulate picks or move it for someone who does have that potential (or is there already). Standing pat at #2 and picking someone who tops out at even a half-notch below All-Star level isn't something I would do.

That's a pretty high bar and one that seems unrealistic. [/COLOR]


In the case of Schneider, who has the only emphatic answer from me in this scenario, it's very simple. I don't think he's proved any more at the NHL level than any of a number of other more lightly-regarded goalies have. I think he's overrated for two reasons:
1) He's in Vancouver, and
2) He's backing up a perennial whipping boy in Luongo. Vancouver fans went through years of a Dan Cloutier/Alex Auld combo, where every save was an adventure and every shot stood a good chance of ending up in the back of the net.

Uh, a sub-2 GAA and a .936 save pct seems pretty indicative of proof the others have not supplied. He also played pretty well in the playoffs after replacing Lu.

This year, there were 10 goalies younger than Schneider who saw a decent amount of action. Those are Carey Price, Ondrej Pavelec, Semyon Varlamov, Devan Dubnyk, Steve Mason, Michal Neuvirth, James Reimer, Sergei Bobrovsky, Tuukka Rask, and Jhonas Enroth. Enroth is the only one who has less career games than Schneider, and Schneider is older than all of them.

Your point?

Goalies who are both younger and played fewer than 20 games this year (and will be either backups or rotating starters next year) are Jonathan Bernier, Anders Lindback, Matt Hackett, Ben Bishop, Braden Holtby, Jacob Markstrom, Leland Irving, Robin Lehner, Dustin Tokarski, and Kevin Poulin. Every one of those guys is younger than Schneider.

???

So the real question isn't "how much should we shell out for Schneider", it's "what really separates Schneider from the rest of this pack of 20 goalies?" They're all younger, in some cases multiple years younger. When they're as old as what Schneider is now, will they be better, worse, or the same?

1,97 GAA and .937 Save % separates him; As to the age question- Who knows but hopefully the Jackets won't have the 1st or 2nd pick by that time and their teams probably won't have a goalie dilemNa either(unless you consider the real young guy Vancouver has, in which case it might be more like a goalie conundrum-)

And then the other question is, where were these goalies drafted? Those aren't exactly a group of elite prospects coming into the league, with the exception of Carey Price. There are some late first-rounders in there, but a bunch who went late in the draft. That's in the last 6-7 years that all these guys were picked...so again, why Schneider?

Two comments-where a guy was drafted is totally irrelevant-think Zetterberg and Picard as two opposite ends of the answer and secondly Schneider is NHL ready now. As you and many others have pointed out through this and other threads it takes years for a drafted guy to become a good NHL goalie. And of course the risk that the sure shot pick turns out to be a flop

Understand where I'm coming from. I'm in the midst of a project to compile all the expansion draft unprotected lists from 1991-2000, and part of that is digging through various shenanigans. Teams exposed players who had long since retired, and in some cases were actively coaching somewhere. They'd do the usual business of "take this guy, and we'll make it worth your while". So one thing I'm doing is being constantly reminded of exactly how comparable this situation is to Mike Dunham and Martin Brodeur in 1996 and 1997. 10 times, New Jersey put Dunham in net just to get him games played credits specifically for the 1998 expansion draft...5 of those appearances were for one single shift. It got nasty; there was talk of arbitration and of lawsuits because of how New Jersey was doing this. Finally the league got fed up and adjusted the expansion draft rules to basically force Dunham to be eligible, and he was taken by Nashville. His career didn't come close to what was expected; he was decent, but not much more than that.

I would think the comparison to 1997 would hold more weight (although not much) if it was Luongo we were talking about. As I see it, Schneider is much more likely to be Brodeur in this situation than the next coming of Mike Dunham

Now, would you give up a #2 overall pick in any draft to get a goalie who's merely serviceable?

No but I'm guessing most GM's and scouts would rate Schneider at Serviceable + at a minimum

Oh, and I forget...at the time of the expansion draft, Dunham was younger than what Schneider is right now.
Again,your point?

When Schneider wins the Cup somewhere, he will sing:

Ah, but I was so much older then
Iím younger than that now


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06-08-2012, 10:25 AM
  #68
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Here I will simplify this a bit if I'm getting the gist of this exchange.

1. If we had a team capable of making life easy for the goalie I would spend the #2 pick on Schneider.
2. If we had a team capable of making life easy for the goalie, we wouldn't have the #2 pick and we probably wouldn't need Schneider.
3. The #2 pick is used for franchise players. There is no evidence to support that Schnieder is a franchise player. To elevate him to that would a sign of pure desperation.
4. That's all we need to do is hand a future franchise player to Vancouver to beat us over the head with for the next 15 years.
5. I would never draft a goalie #2, therefore I would (almost) never use the #2 to acquire a goalie. That includes Quick.

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06-08-2012, 10:53 AM
  #69
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Quote:
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Here I will simplify this a bit if I'm getting the gist of this exchange.

1. If we had a team capable of making life easy for the goalie I would spend the #2 pick on Schneider.
2. If we had a team capable of making life easy for the goalie, we wouldn't have the #2 pick and we probably wouldn't need Schneider.
3. The #2 pick is used for franchise players. There is no evidence to support that Schnieder is a franchise player. To elevate him to that would a sign of pure desperation.
4. That's all we need to do is hand a future franchise player to Vancouver to beat us over the head with for the next 15 years.
5. I would never draft a goalie #2, therefore I would (almost) never use the #2 to acquire a goalie. That includes Quick.
Your response begs the question.

Which comes first a good goalie or a team capable of making life easy for said goalie?

If Yakupov is available at 2 I wouldn't trade the pick. If we take Galchenyuk I wouldn't have a problem. Other than that I'm not sure we can say there is a potential franchise player available so if the Canucks would trade even up (or throw in bonuses) I'd do it. You know, build the team from the goal out.

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06-08-2012, 11:15 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by EspenK View Post
Your response begs the question.

Which comes first a good goalie or a team capable of making life easy for said goalie?

If Yakupov is available at 2 I wouldn't trade the pick. If we take Galchenyuk I wouldn't have a problem. Other than that I'm not sure we can say there is a potential franchise player available so if the Canucks would trade even up (or throw in bonuses) I'd do it. You know, build the team from the goal out.

Not convinced Schneider has demonstrated that he is "that" guy. Not that he isn't/ shouldn't be under consideration. Just not at the level of a franchise/ game changing acquisition.

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06-08-2012, 11:28 AM
  #71
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i don't think that giving up the #2OA is a smart move to get Schneider...We are possibly going to get a franchise caliber player with that pick, and as witnessed by Mike Smith's rise this past year, there are serviceable guys out there that can help us for less than what it will take to get Schneider...

just my opinion...but with our defense coming around into a more legit defense than in years past, we can go with a 2nd tier guy as long as we grab Subban/Dansk/ etc maybe 2 -3 of those guys with our 2nd and 3rd round picks to ensure that we are getting something top notch when this young team gels

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06-08-2012, 11:34 AM
  #72
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Not convinced Schneider has demonstrated that he is "that" guy. Not that he isn't/ shouldn't be under consideration. Just not at the level of a franchise/ game changing acquisition.
You must be a hard sell. A 1.97 GAA and a .937 save percentage seems pretty good to me.

Of course Mason almost won the Vezina so one good season doesn't necessarily make a goalie.

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06-08-2012, 11:52 AM
  #73
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How many high-profile goalies have been traded and gone on to win the Cup?

Roy and Hasek (though Osgood was the man for the other three Cups) certainly, maybe Khabibulin.

Other than that, most of the Cup winning goaltenders are drafted or acquired young and developed by their team, mixed with a few wildcards like a Niemi or Thomas (considered good when he won, but not when Boston originally acquired him).

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06-08-2012, 12:00 PM
  #74
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Not convinced Schneider has demonstrated that he is "that" guy. Not that he isn't/ shouldn't be under consideration. Just not at the level of a franchise/ game changing acquisition.
If he's not "that guy," who is? I can't see anyone demonstrably better the CBJ is going to get.

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06-08-2012, 12:08 PM
  #75
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If he's not "that guy," who is?

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