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Acq/ Rost. Bldg./ Cap Part XIII

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06-08-2012, 12:29 PM
  #126
brs03
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Originally Posted by ChibiPooky View Post
Knowledge of the strategy and input into it are two different things, though. I think he should have the former but not the latter.
That seems backwards to me. It only works if there are almost no limits on the possibilities for who you can put on the roster, which is obviously not the case. The strongest limitations are going to be on roster moves (at least high impact ones) so the strategy is going to have to be formed at least in part based on what GMGM knows he can do building the roster.

Obviously the coach needs to have his freedom to make tactical adjustment from day to day (or shift to shift or whatever) but the coach can't dictate an overall strategy unless GMGM knows he can build the team to fit it. It's much easier to make things flow in the opposite direction. And, assuming both the roster moves and the strategic planning can be done intelligently, I'd argue it's the better course of action to take.

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06-08-2012, 12:37 PM
  #127
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That seems backwards to me. It only works if there are almost no limits on the possibilities for who you can put on the roster, which is obviously not the case. The strongest limitations are going to be on roster moves (at least high impact ones) so the strategy is going to have to be formed at least in part based on what GMGM knows he can do building the roster.

Obviously the coach needs to have his freedom to make tactical adjustment from day to day (or shift to shift or whatever) but the coach can't dictate an overall strategy unless GMGM knows he can build the team to fit it. It's much easier to make things flow in the opposite direction.
How many player changes do we think he really has to make, though? In theory the system is based at least somewhat on the current roster, or at least it would be in my world. If we're already looking at a system that the majority of the roster fits into, then it's just incrementally improving the rest of the roster's fit, when better fits become available. I don't see a case where there'd be enough of any particular style of player available to build a system around who could be acquired.

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06-08-2012, 12:43 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by ChibiPooky View Post
How many player changes do we think he really has to make, though? In theory the system is based at least somewhat on the current roster, or at least it would be in my world. If we're already looking at a system that the majority of the roster fits into, then it's just incrementally improving the rest of the roster's fit, when better fits become available. I don't see a case where there'd be enough of any particular style of player available to build a system around who could be acquired.
Except the vast majority of the roster is the same one that was constructed to run and gun in the heyday of Boudreau and IMO fits a more up tempo attacking style.


Last edited by Millhaus: 06-08-2012 at 01:39 PM.
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06-08-2012, 12:46 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by ChibiPooky View Post
How many player changes do we think he really has to make, though? In theory the system is based at least somewhat on the current roster, or at least it would be in my world. If we're already looking at a system that the majority of the roster fits into, then it's just incrementally improving the rest of the roster's fit, when better fits become available. I don't see a case where there'd be enough of any particular style of player available to build a system around who could be acquired.
Well, I'll start with the obvious question: Ovi or no Ovi. Do you use a system in which his strengths are actual strengths, or do you not do that? There are totally valid systems that have had success before in which Ovi strengths don't mean as much, whereas Backstrom's (for example) might. If GMGM/Ted are committed to Ovi then that has strategic implications. If they aren't, then that opens up the door for some big-time acquisitions that could have different strategic implications.

Keep in mind that GMGM is implicitly deciding on a system when he hires a coach, so this discussion is somewhat moot for this offseason, but these are questions that are probably raised every offseason (or even in-season).

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06-08-2012, 12:54 PM
  #130
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Being committed to Ovy doesn't seem synonymous with running a system that plays to his strengths....

Not the last few years at least....

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06-08-2012, 01:11 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by CapitalsCupFantasy View Post
Being committed to Ovy doesn't seem synonymous with running a system that plays to his strengths....

Not the last few years at least....
Well, I was assuming that both roster and coaching decisions were made intelligently. Best case scenario, if you will. That hasn't always been the case.

Basically my point is it's bad to half-ass it. Making strategic decisions without following through with the roster, or vice-versa, is bad. I think the strategy is easier to change than the roster more often than not and since GMGM is the one that ultimately controls both (hires the coach, signs/trades the players) he's going to be involved in both.

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06-08-2012, 01:46 PM
  #132
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I'll agree with that. I don't necessarily advocate complete separation of duties, but it seems like the line between productive discussion/collaboration and detrimental meddling comes pretty early and is easy to cross.

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06-08-2012, 01:53 PM
  #133
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For me, GMGM making tactical decisions is meddling. Dictating icetime or line combos etc., with some exceptions (obviously you'd expect him to have an opinion on how to handle injured players and prospects that should be taken into account).

But I think the GM has to be part of the identity-creation process. Trap or no trap, lax or strict, aggressive or passive, fast or slow. These are things that might only be possible with a certain type of lineup. That's not meddling, that's his job.

If he told DH to run some version of the trap, that wasn't meddling. I think it was the wrong decision given the makeup of the roster, but it wasn't meddling. That's a question of strategy. If he told DH not to forecheck in certain situations and told him to try to force the play to certain parts of the ice, or told him to use certain players on the PK and certain players on the PP etc., that's meddling. Those are tactical decisions that might have to change on a day-to-day basis and are for the coaches to decide.

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06-08-2012, 01:59 PM
  #134
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And who pray tell told you this...?
Really? You think I'm going to disclose my source? What, so I can be called a liar by the Internet donkey crew? If you don't believe it, don't believe it, I could care less. I'm obviously NOT going to disclose my source, but I do like to share info with the core group here from time to time if it doesn't expose me or my internal sources.

I don't get a LOT of info, but from time to time I get some decent stuff.

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06-08-2012, 02:07 PM
  #135
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That's where we disagree I guess. I think it's his job to build a roster with a certain image in mind, and the coach's job to decide how best to use that roster. Now he certainly has a form of input into that because he selects the coach, but in my mind once the coach is chosen he should be allowed to do as he sees fit. If he's not pleased with the results, then he can ask the coach to do something different or send him packing.

What happens when your GM and coach share a vision for the team, but that vision is wrong? #hunterhockey

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06-08-2012, 02:14 PM
  #136
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From what I was told last week, statistical analysis plays heavily into the lineup selected. My first reaction was, "where's the coach's gut feeling come into play?". I got the impression that the team operates this way in large part with lineup selection. I think it's a McPhee directive, but I'm guessing on that part.
Ergo, the new coach will be a puppet.

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06-08-2012, 02:57 PM
  #137
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Ergo, the new coach will be a puppet.
I keep hoping at some point the puppet master will take some heat...so far....made of teflon...

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06-08-2012, 03:06 PM
  #138
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For me, GMGM making tactical decisions is meddling. Dictating icetime or line combos etc., with some exceptions (obviously you'd expect him to have an opinion on how to handle injured players and prospects that should be taken into account).
I wish I could say this was true, but...

I recall that 24/7 episode where Shero and Bylsma were having their discussions about the grading of players' performance. I think the GM's nowadays have some say in the gameday makeup of the team.
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But I think the GM has to be part of the identity-creation process. Trap or no trap, lax or strict, aggressive or passive, fast or slow. These are things that might only be possible with a certain type of lineup. That's not meddling, that's his job.

If he told DH to run some version of the trap, that wasn't meddling. I think it was the wrong decision given the makeup of the roster, but it wasn't meddling. That's a question of strategy. If he told DH not to forecheck in certain situations and told him to try to force the play to certain parts of the ice, or told him to use certain players on the PK and certain players on the PP etc., that's meddling. Those are tactical decisions that might have to change on a day-to-day basis and are for the coaches to decide.
That in itself is the chicken-and-egg question: where do the duties (and which duties) of the coach fall under the watch of the GM?

Statistical analysis? Hunter couldn't have brought that here, so it was here and developed while Boudreau was here, if not earlier.

My concern? We have a problem with neutral-zone transition and moving the puck end-to-end, as well as the power play. Statistical analysis doesn't really play into it; that's a function of team philosophy and strategy. Therefore, our main moves need to be around functioning PMD's and a system that stops defenses from setting up a trap.

Does this mean we keep Green and Wideman? Does this mean we let go of Semin?

And all things being equal, which coach fits that type of bill?

At least I can hope for the third line of Hendricks/Beagle/Chimera. Beastly third line if there ever was one.

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06-08-2012, 03:07 PM
  #139
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What do you guys think about Andrei Kostitsyn?

Half a PPG player that could be gotten for cheap.

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06-08-2012, 03:12 PM
  #140
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What do you guys think about Andrei Kostitsyn?

Half a PPG player that could be gotten for cheap.
I haven't quite completely decided, but I think I'd be on board with trying to get both Kostitsyns as well as Radulov. Andrei alone would probably be fine as well. I haven't seen much footage but from what I hear he could fit well on the 2nd line.

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06-08-2012, 03:15 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by ChibiPooky View Post
I haven't quite completely decided, but I think I'd be on board with trying to get both Kostitsyns as well as Radulov. Andrei alone would probably be fine as well. I haven't seen much footage but from what I hear he could fit well on the 2nd line.
Why not just get all 3 and use them as our second line.

Call it the "Soviet Enigma" line.

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06-08-2012, 03:19 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by CapitalsCupFantasy View Post
Really? You think I'm going to disclose my source? What, so I can be called a liar by the Internet donkey crew? If you don't believe it, don't believe it, I could care less. I'm obviously NOT going to disclose my source, but I do like to share info with the core group here from time to time if it doesn't expose me or my internal sources.

I don't get a LOT of info, but from time to time I get some decent stuff.
No I don't expect you to say your 'source' is Bob Smith and he is the assistant to the assistant GM but I would expect some vagaries to establish some semblance of credibility.

Do you have some examples of what your 'source' told you, you posted here, and it came true at a later date I can check on?

I mean you do understand that most time people around here claim an inside source they are lying right? And it is also against the rules of these boards.

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15) Outlandish claims of inside information: This is subjective and will be at the discretion of the moderator after consulting with other posters and other administrators. Deference will be given to veteran members who have established credibility. If you're an insider, contact us with proof BEFORE you post.


Last edited by Millhaus: 06-08-2012 at 03:32 PM. Reason: Had to hunt down the rule...
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06-08-2012, 03:19 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by ChibiPooky View Post
I haven't quite completely decided, but I think I'd be on board with trying to get both Kostitsyns as well as Radulov. Andrei alone would probably be fine as well. I haven't seen much footage but from what I hear he could fit well on the 2nd line.
Wouldn't waste getting all three, just get Andrei and Radulov.

If the Caps don't keep Semin, which would be a damn shame because then they would have 3 Sashas, the second line could be.

AK-MoJo-Radulov

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06-08-2012, 03:33 PM
  #144
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No I don't expect you to say your 'source' is Bob Smith and he is the assistant to the assistant GM but I would expect some vagaries to establish some semblance of credibility.

Do you have some examples of what your 'source' told you, you posted here, and it came true at a later date I can check on?

I mean you do understand that most time people around here claim an inside source they are lying right?
I knew Varly wanted to leave (at the time I was told back to Russia) the night of his last game as a Cap. That wasn't from team sources though....friend of my wife's is good friends with who used to be Varly's GF here in DC. She's now back in Russia dating some KHL player from what I last heard.

Doesn't matter honestly and that's why I rarely give too many specifics on what I hear, certainly nothing OUTLANDISH as defined by the site rules. If I can pass along nuggets to the good posters who have been contributors here for years like me, I will as long as I can do it safely. I personally don't care about any validation. Take what I said as you will, but I don't have any motivation nor do I even more than once in a blue moon even make note that I've heard something "insider'ish". Most of the time the info (if seen by my people who are members here too, YES, Caps employees do frequent these boards) would probably out me as the loose lips, so I keep it myself.

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06-08-2012, 03:33 PM
  #145
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Having someone who doesn't understand statistics (in particular when not to use statistics) use statistics is like having a baby use a hand grenade. I hope to god they're not trying to moneyball their coach search because we're gonna end up with Ron Wilson since it's clear as day not one **** in the entire organization knows anything beyond basic arithmetic. This has Ted stench all over it.

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06-08-2012, 03:36 PM
  #146
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Kostitsyn should be ok. 25-50 player who hits hard and has questionable work ethic but generally buys in for the playoffs much like Horton and Penner. Not my first choice but I'm not vomiting at the thought either.

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06-08-2012, 03:42 PM
  #147
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If my saying the reason for Shultz in the lineup over Erskine is in part because the Caps use statistics heavily when weighing lineup options is outlandish, you've probably got a different meaning for the term than the rest of the free world.

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06-08-2012, 03:56 PM
  #148
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If there's a problem with a post, report it. Don't bicker about it.

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06-08-2012, 03:59 PM
  #149
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If there's a problem with a post, report it. Don't bicker about it.
Understood. Sorry.

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06-08-2012, 04:47 PM
  #150
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Ergo, the new coach will be a puppet.
'fraid so.

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