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The Good, the Bad, and the Matt Carle

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Old
06-08-2012, 01:13 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Protest View Post
No, but it doesn't help when you have a Dman that makes unforced errors routinely, let alone when he's under pressure. His biggest weakness is decision making, and that was on full display when NJ was pressuring him. He is one of the team's better puck movers, and we needed to rely on him in that series to be someone to get the puck out, and he could not do it.

I'm one of the few people who want a better puck moving D man rather than a bruiser. Cobrun was the only one that was passable in retrieving the puck and getting it out against NJ because of his speed. If faced with that type of pressure again we'll likely see the same results.
26th in the league in turnovers. That really isn't that much for as many minutes as he plays, and as much as he handles the puck. Check out the guys ahead of him. If you carry the puck, you WILL turn it over. That's just the way it is.

Even if Carle goes, whoever takes over his role (assuming it isn't split among several), will more than likely end up with similar turnover numbers.

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06-08-2012, 01:13 PM
  #27
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As if any of them did?

There's more to handling a forecheck than the guy retrieving the puck. There's the goalie who could help set it up, the forwards that could slow them down in the neutral zone, the other D who could give him an adequate outlet.

Winning or losing a forecheck does not happen because of one player.
good points, but I'd still like to see carle have more urgency at times.

He struggles to recognize when trouble is coming...
Good defenders see there is NO outlet, "engage danger-mode" so they just slap it up along the boards frantically.

He NEVER does that. He could do it a little more, there are times when you absolutely have to.

either way, I agree he isn't to blame for NJ's forecheck. The wingers need to come back into the zone instead of looking to spring a 3 on 2.
(in that series at least)

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06-08-2012, 01:32 PM
  #28
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Carle is a one trick offensive defensemen. All he does is stretch pass. Many of times it ends up as a turnover.

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06-08-2012, 01:35 PM
  #29
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Carle is a one trick offensive defensemen. All he does is stretch pass. Many of times it ends up as a turnover.
I'm sure that's why he's on the PP, to make stretch passes.

The guy can make any pass. That's far and away his best skill.

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06-08-2012, 01:38 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
I'm sure that's why he's on the PP, to make stretch passes.

The guy can make any pass. That's far and away his best skill.
Except when he passed up the middle from behind our net and it ended up in our net.

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06-08-2012, 01:39 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
26th in the league in turnovers. That really isn't that much for as many minutes as he plays, and as much as he handles the puck. Check out the guys ahead of him. If you carry the puck, you WILL turn it over. That's just the way it is.

Even if Carle goes, whoever takes over his role (assuming it isn't split among several), will more than likely end up with similar turnover numbers.
Every turnover isn't created equal though. Some are in the neutral or offensive zone, and some are forced. Carle seems to have a lot of unforced, or weakly forced, turnovers in the D zone because of his poor decision making.

I know guys that carry the puck turn it over more because they have it more. I don't see a rate stat for it on NHL.com. I could probably calculated it, but I gotta get back to work.

Maybe it's because we see Carle more often, but I just see him make ill advised plays regularly. I'm also not blaming him for the NJ series. I'm saying in that situation you want to see someone like him step up, and get the puck out because he's supposed to be our best player at doing that besides Timonen. Instead he was one of the worst offenders...dominoes commercial? sorry ADD.

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06-08-2012, 01:42 PM
  #32
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Ladies and gentlemen. Matt Carle.

http://www.csnphilly.com/blog/flyers...video_lightbox

Terrible. Just watch the video.

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06-08-2012, 01:43 PM
  #33
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Why not give Gustafsson a chance? I feel like he can be a serviceable 6th D man. I can understand if people would want a veteran for the 6th D man though.

Coburn, Grossmann, Timonen, Meszaros, Bourdon, and Gustafsson.

I would definitely bring in a vet D man on a two way contract with a low cap as the 7th D. We all know injuries are going to happen and no one in their right mind wants Matt Walker and Andreas Lilja as our safety nets. The only possibility still in the system is Brandon Manning but it is too early to tell with him.

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06-08-2012, 01:44 PM
  #34
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Theres also something to be said fort he fact carle hasn't played with a partner he has chemistry with since Pronger went down.

I hope deep down Weber could be that role. He's awesome with Suter, could Carle play like suter if he had weber to back him up?

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06-08-2012, 01:49 PM
  #35
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Theres also something to be said fort he fact carle hasn't played with a partner he has chemistry with since Pronger went down.

I hope deep down Weber could be that role. He's awesome with Suter, could Carle play like suter if he had weber to back him up?
No, Carle couldn't. Carle was the weak link on the Pronger pairing and other teams' top players would routinely abuse him. There's a reason he looks much better on a lower lower pairing facing lesser competition. Putting him back on a top line with Weber just means we'd have to spend more time watching other teams avoid Weber by taking it past Carle or dumping it into his side to abuse him along the boards. I'd rather not put a soft guy on the top pairing again.

Carle supporters used to notice that Carle looked better when he was playing away from Pronger after he was injured; some of them went so far as to say Pronger was somehow dragging Carle down. The reality was that without Pronger Carle was no longer facing top lines so he wasn't getting outclassed anymore.

So, no. No more top pairings for Carle please.

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06-08-2012, 02:04 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by dbr2 View Post
Except when he passed up the middle from behind our net and it ended up in our net.
Yea, dumb. It happens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Protest View Post
Every turnover isn't created equal though. Some are in the neutral or offensive zone, and some are forced. Carle seems to have a lot of unforced, or weakly forced, turnovers in the D zone because of his poor decision making.

I know guys that carry the puck turn it over more because they have it more. I don't see a rate stat for it on NHL.com. I could probably calculated it, but I gotta get back to work.

Maybe it's because we see Carle more often, but I just see him make ill advised plays regularly. I'm also not blaming him for the NJ series. I'm saying in that situation you want to see someone like him step up, and get the puck out because he's supposed to be our best player at doing that besides Timonen. Instead he was one of the worst offenders...dominoes commercial? sorry ADD.
Sorry, 26th in giveaways. Which is unforced turnovers.

I don't even like Carle, but the hate for him is absurd. I've wanted to trade him for 2 years now. Carle is the perfect example of the grass being greener on the other side. There really aren't all that many people that can play Carle's role on this team better than he can; and the ones that can are EXPENSIVE. He is also an ideal example of Confirmation Bias. People see what they want to see with Carle. People fail to recognize the good things he does, and fail to see when the rest of the D make similar blunders. No one ever misses when Carle does it though, because everyone hates him.


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06-08-2012, 02:08 PM
  #37
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Does any site break down turnovers by zone? I'd be really curious to see what percentage of Carle's turnovers are in his own end compared to other defensemen.

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06-08-2012, 02:14 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
Does any site break down turnovers by zone? I'd be really curious to see what percentage of Carle's turnovers are in his own end compared to other defensemen.
Me too. I'm unaware of any. Closes thing I know of is offensive zone start and finish %.

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06-08-2012, 02:17 PM
  #39
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Carle simply doesn't pass the "eye test".

My Flyers D rankings:
1. Timonen, Coburn, Grossmann, Meszaros, Carle, Gustafsson.

Now that is just the way I feel. I think your 5th best defenseman should be making more than Coburn (4.5), Grossmann (3.5), Meszaros (4.0).

Its fine if you like Carle, I just don't see the value in him. A good shutdown D man is like a good Offensive Tackle, if they are doing their job you don't even notice them. I notice Carle all the time for all the wrong reasons, whether it be the turnovers, lack of intensity, or letting players camp out in the crease.

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06-08-2012, 02:21 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Syracuse Bulldogs View Post
Carle simply doesn't pass the "eye test".

My Flyers D rankings:
1. Timonen, Coburn, Grossmann, Meszaros, Carle, Gustafsson.

Now that is just the way I feel. I think your 5th best defenseman should be making more than Coburn (4.5), Grossmann (3.5), Meszaros (4.0).

Its fine if you like Carle, I just don't see the value in him. A good shutdown D man is like a good Offensive Tackle, if they are doing their job you don't even notice them. I notice Carle all the time for all the wrong reasons, whether it be the turnovers, lack of intensity, or letting players camp out in the crease.
Carle isn't a shutdown d-man though. If you had a shutdown D-man trying to do what Carle does, it would be disasterous haha. What if Grossmann was handling the puck as much as Carle?

You need to strike a balance between stay at home guys, puck movers, and guys that do a bit of both.

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06-08-2012, 02:24 PM
  #41
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Me too. I'm unaware of any. Closes thing I know of is offensive zone start and finish %.
Yep, which doesn't really get the job done. The problem people have with Carle is where and when he turns it over, more than sheer numbers. Not all turnovers are created equal, and more often than not when a defenseman tries to clear it through the slot only to set up a great scoring chance for the opponent...it's Carle; Timonen, Coburn and Mez aren't known for that sort of thing, but Carle has earned a reputation for it. Most d-men will go for safe plays. Seems like Carle does the dangerous play often. Sometimes it works, sometimes it leads to horrible things.

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06-08-2012, 02:31 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
Yep, which doesn't really get the job done. The problem people have with Carle is where and when he turns it over, more than sheer numbers. Not all turnovers are created equal, and more often than not when a defenseman tries to clear it through the slot only to set up a great scoring chance for the opponent...it's Carle; Timonen, Coburn and Mez aren't known for that sort of thing, but Carle has earned a reputation for it. Most d-men will go for safe plays. Seems like Carle does the dangerous play often. Sometimes it works, sometimes it leads to horrible things.
Yea, I understand that. I just have to wonder how much does Confirmation Bias come into play. I strongly believe at this point that people notice EVERYTHING Carle does because he is so hated. I'd wonder how much more Carle does that than the other guys (relative to how much they handle the puck).

I kind of want him to come back now so I can perform my own turnover logs throughout the course of the season haha.

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06-08-2012, 03:05 PM
  #43
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Well if he goes, who replaces that?

Coburn/Grossmann/Meszaros/whoever else don't have the puck moving skills that Carle possesses.
It's not like coburn and mez are terrible at this....

Keeping Carle long term "because we don't have a replacement" is terrible thinking. He's not a good defender. He's not embarrassing out there...but his defense isn't 5m caliber.

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06-08-2012, 03:10 PM
  #44
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Every turnover isn't created equal though. Some are in the neutral or offensive zone, and some are forced. Carle seems to have a lot of unforced, or weakly forced, turnovers in the D zone because of his poor decision making.

I know guys that carry the puck turn it over more because they have it more. I don't see a rate stat for it on NHL.com. I could probably calculated it, but I gotta get back to work.

Maybe it's because we see Carle more often, but I just see him make ill advised plays regularly. I'm also not blaming him for the NJ series. I'm saying in that situation you want to see someone like him step up, and get the puck out because he's supposed to be our best player at doing that besides Timonen. Instead he was one of the worst offenders...dominoes commercial? sorry ADD.
Exactly, have some hockey sense. This is why I like grossman, he keeps it simple and safe...and 95% of the time that is the smartest play.

Mez an Carle both are very risky....

And Carle seems to not have a killer instinct at all...if we are paying someone 5 mil I want the other guys to know its not going to be an easy night.

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06-08-2012, 03:11 PM
  #45
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It's not that I hate Matt Carle. It's that I don't think he's worth MORE than 4M per season. Also, I don't think he's an anchor to a top pairing.
Bingo!! I hope Homer does not strap the team with another big contract on defense. Unless it is Weber. Either sign Matt on the cheap or move on.

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06-08-2012, 03:13 PM
  #46
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No, Carle couldn't. Carle was the weak link on the Pronger pairing and other teams' top players would routinely abuse him. There's a reason he looks much better on a lower lower pairing facing lesser competition. Putting him back on a top line with Weber just means we'd have to spend more time watching other teams avoid Weber by taking it past Carle or dumping it into his side to abuse him along the boards. I'd rather not put a soft guy on the top pairing again.

Carle supporters used to notice that Carle looked better when he was playing away from Pronger after he was injured; some of them went so far as to say Pronger was somehow dragging Carle down. The reality was that without Pronger Carle was no longer facing top lines so he wasn't getting outclassed anymore.

So, no. No more top pairings for Carle please.
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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
Yep, which doesn't really get the job done. The problem people have with Carle is where and when he turns it over, more than sheer numbers. Not all turnovers are created equal, and more often than not when a defenseman tries to clear it through the slot only to set up a great scoring chance for the opponent...it's Carle; Timonen, Coburn and Mez aren't known for that sort of thing, but Carle has earned a reputation for it. Most d-men will go for safe plays. Seems like Carle does the dangerous play often. Sometimes it works, sometimes it leads to horrible things.
No the problem is that the Carle haters want to continually try and change the game and come up with some other method of rating him as a player, that has no factual basis. In order to try and justify their unjustified hate for the player. There is plenty of factual information out that there that Carle supporters use to back up their opinion. Regardless of what the number say, you'll try and find some way to spin it to try and discredit Carle. And fail each time. Carle is a very good player. And that's why the Flyers want to re-sign him.

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06-08-2012, 03:18 PM
  #47
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No the problem is that the Carle haters want to continually try and change the game and come up with some other method of rating him as a player, that has no factual basis. In order to try and justify their unjustified hate for the player. There is plenty of factual information out that there that Carle supporters use to back up their opinion. Regardless of what the number say, you'll try and find some way to spin it to try and discredit Carle. And fail each time. Carle is a very good player. And that's why the Flyers want to re-sign him.
What is this factual information...

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06-08-2012, 03:20 PM
  #48
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And how about Bryce Salvador on a 1 yr...3-3.5 mil
deal...he's a pretty solid
3/4 guy.

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06-08-2012, 03:25 PM
  #49
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What is this factual information...
Whatever metric you want to use. Whether it's the Real Time scoring stats available on NHL.com. Or the advanced stats on behind the net. They all point to one thing. And that is that Carle is a very good defenseman.

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06-08-2012, 03:29 PM
  #50
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Bingo!! I hope Homer does not strap the team with another big contract on defense. Unless it is Weber. Either sign Matt on the cheap or move on.
If Carle doesn't get the money, somebody will. Should be interesting to see how it pans out.

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