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Randy Cunneyworth and Randy Ladouceur relieved of their duties

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Old
06-08-2012, 01:01 PM
  #151
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
No one called Martin bad so I don't even know why it's being brought up. I'm pretty sure the argument is, the team was not good and was not going to make the playoffs with or without Martin. Kriss E and the other posters can spin the stats however which way they want. The fact of the matter is the Habs won 3 games in their last 10 with him. They were also 3 points out while having played more games than everyone they were chasing

L to Philly
OT Loss Pitt
L to Anaheim
SO Loss San Jose
W LA
SO Loss Columbus (worst team in the league)
SO Loss to Vancouver
W NJ
W Islanders
L Philly
L Jersey

That's 3 wins in 10 games. Not to mention the blown leads in fantabulous Martin fashion.

The team was in 12th frigging place 3 points out of 8th and every team ahead of them had 2-3 games in hand.

These are all FACTS!

The team did worse with Cunney, no one is denying that (but people also deny the **** storm around the team along with injuries and trades). So I'm not sure what people are trying to expose here.
First of all, plenty of people around here called Martin a bad coach -- over and over and over again -- mostly because they hated his style and his on-camera personality. Second, on December 15 there was no reason to believe we wouldn't make the playoffs. We were a perennial playoff team that had almost completely recovered from our horrible start and were heading UP the standings, not DOWN. Of course we can only guess what might have been. But let's not forget:

Quote:
Originally Posted by habitue
+ We have to look at the injury list + lack of depth on the bottom lines and experience on D.
This is exactly how I see it. Zero depth, one million injuries. Again, I'm just offering an opinion, but it looked like Martin could've built on the slight momentum we had, kept the team together while we recovered and pulled us into another 7th or 8th place finish. Would we have gone far in the playoffs? No. So you can argue it was best to finish last and get this upcoming #3 pick. But I think this season is a perfect example of how big a factor strong coaching is. IMO, like him or hate him, Martin's experience as an NHL coach would've taken us much further.

That said, I don't hold anything against Cunneyworth, who was given the wrong job for the wrong reasons, at the wrong time. Sadly, he was placed in a no-win position, which is exactly what we got.

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06-08-2012, 01:37 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by Lshap View Post
First of all, plenty of people around here called Martin a bad coach -- over and over and over again -- mostly because they hated his style and his on-camera personality. Second, on December 15 there was no reason to believe we wouldn't make the playoffs. We were a perennial playoff team that had almost completely recovered from our horrible start and were heading UP the standings, not DOWN. Of course we can only guess what might have been. But let's not forget:



This is exactly how I see it. Zero depth, one million injuries. Again, I'm just offering an opinion, but it looked like Martin could've built on the slight momentum we had, kept the team together while we recovered and pulled us into another 7th or 8th place finish. Would we have gone far in the playoffs? No. So you can argue it was best to finish last and get this upcoming #3 pick. But I think this season is a perfect example of how big a factor strong coaching is. IMO, like him or hate him, Martin's experience as an NHL coach would've taken us much further.

That said, I don't hold anything against Cunneyworth, who was given the wrong job for the wrong reasons, at the wrong time. Sadly, he was placed in a no-win position, which is exactly what we got.
Don't tell me the team was on the right track when they won 3 of their last 10 under Martin.

Martin would have taken us further......to a 10th place finish. Martin is not a miracle worker. The team was not built properly and there were many injuries. Please tell me how he would have taken an inferior team in a deeper whole as far as the 2 teams who finished 6th and 8th place?

The argument is trivial. We would have won a few more games with Martin....who cares? It's his team. LOL

Martin gets too much credit and too much blame at the same time.

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06-08-2012, 03:15 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
No one called Martin bad so I don't even know why it's being brought up. I'm pretty sure the argument is, the team was not good and was not going to make the playoffs with or without Martin. Kriss E and the other posters can spin the stats however which way they want. The fact of the matter is the Habs won 3 games in their last 10 with him. They were also 3 points out while having played more games than everyone they were chasing
How did I spin the stats? I brought forward our ACTUAL record.
3-1-2 ACTUAL RECORD.
3-3-4 ACTUAL RECORD.

3 Wins, 7 losses, NOT PRECISE.
1 Win, 7 losses, FICTITIOUS.

So, how am I spinning the stats??

Ya, we were 3pts out of the POs, we were also close to 8th. Why do we have to look in one direction???
Bottom line is, POs were still reachable. That's a fact. No matter how skeptical you were of it happening, or how little you believe it possible, we were still very much in the running.

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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post

L to Philly
OT Loss Pitt
L to Anaheim
SO Loss San Jose
W LA
SO Loss Columbus (worst team in the league)
SO Loss to Vancouver
W NJ
W Islanders
L Philly
L Jersey

That's 3 wins in 10 games. Not to mention the blown leads in fantabulous Martin fashion.

The team was in 12th frigging place 3 points out of 8th and every team ahead of them had 2-3 games in hand.

These are all FACTS!
Yes, we won 3 of our last 10. We also gather 4 extra points, which means we had 10pts in last 10gp, so .500. Keep that pace up, with a hot streak at a certain point, and things can be on the upswing.
Does this mean we were in a super great position? Nobody ever argued it.
Were we going to make the POs? No way of knowing, but the possibility was there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
The team did worse with Cunney, no one is denying that (but people also deny the **** storm around the team along with injuries and trades). So I'm not sure what people are trying to expose here.
If the injuries are true for RC, then shouldn't people give credit to Martin for how the team performed under the crap storm around the injuries he had to deal with over the past two years?? He had to deal with them just as much as RC, if not more, and he managed to keep the boat afloat, unlike RC.


I don't care much about this debate. It's pretty clear which of the two is the worse.
But there's no point in trying to make the other appear worse than he actually was.

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06-08-2012, 04:05 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Lshap View Post
First of all, plenty of people around here called Martin a bad coach -- over and over and over again -- mostly because they hated his style and his on-camera personality. Second, on December 15 there was no reason to believe we wouldn't make the playoffs. We were a perennial playoff team that had almost completely recovered from our horrible start and were heading UP the standings, not DOWN. Of course we can only guess what might have been. But let's not forget:



This is exactly how I see it. Zero depth, one million injuries. Again, I'm just offering an opinion, but it looked like Martin could've built on the slight momentum we had, kept the team together while we recovered and pulled us into another 7th or 8th place finish. Would we have gone far in the playoffs? No. So you can argue it was best to finish last and get this upcoming #3 pick. But I think this season is a perfect example of how big a factor strong coaching is. IMO, like him or hate him, Martin's experience as an NHL coach would've taken us much further.

That said, I don't hold anything against Cunneyworth, who was given the wrong job for the wrong reasons, at the wrong time. Sadly, he was placed in a no-win position, which is exactly what we got.
I think it was a win-win position for him.

1- he got his 1st NHL headcoaching job;

2- he could still had won with the Habs (making playoffs);

3- now being free, he can still be assistant coach at NHL level (even headcoach in the future) OR head coach at AHL level.

4- the fact that he faced with courage and resilience a language and media storm in Montreal makes him a quality candidate for a job elsewhere.

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06-08-2012, 09:00 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I don't care much about this debate. It's pretty clear which of the two is the worse.
But there's no point in trying to make the other appear worse than he actually was.
Had to get the last shot in... even though you don't care about the debate

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06-08-2012, 10:25 PM
  #156
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The Habs were a classy team before all this.... C'mon he was trying to learn French!!! Could have give him some more time. Poor guy.

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06-09-2012, 04:02 AM
  #157
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Had to get the last shot in... even though you don't care about the debate
Is it really a shot?? If you feel like it is, maybe you should rethink your attitude towards this so called debate.
Couldn't care less for either coach. Glad both are gone. But one was clearly worst than the other and that's not a knock, it's a fact. If you want to believe otherwise, go right ahead. Couldn't care less. Doesn't mean I can't express my opinion on the matter.

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06-09-2012, 04:37 AM
  #158
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The Habs were a classy team before all this.... C'mon he was trying to learn French!!! Could have give him some more time. Poor guy.

Learning or not learn french does not change one fact: Randy was horrible interim head coach. Biggest blame for all this mess goes to Gauthier, what a garbage GM he was

Bergevin seems to be classy guy and im sure he restore value "classy" to our beloved Habs.

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06-09-2012, 07:00 AM
  #159
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Originally Posted by habitue View Post
I think it was a win-win position for him.

1- he got his 1st NHL headcoaching job;

2- he could still had won with the Habs (making playoffs);

3- now being free, he can still be assistant coach at NHL level (even headcoach in the future) OR head coach at AHL level.

4- the fact that he faced with courage and resilience a language and media storm in Montreal makes him a quality candidate for a job elsewhere.
Yeah, you're right that the experience probably helps Randy as he moves forward. He's looked at as a survivor of a terrible administration, who managed to stay classy while everything around him fell apart. In a way, that drama masks the bottom line that he didn't do a great job.

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06-09-2012, 07:18 AM
  #160
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
Don't tell me the team was on the right track when they won 3 of their last 10 under Martin.

Martin would have taken us further......to a 10th place finish. Martin is not a miracle worker. The team was not built properly and there were many injuries. Please tell me how he would have taken an inferior team in a deeper whole as far as the 2 teams who finished 6th and 8th place?

The argument is trivial. We would have won a few more games with Martin....who cares? It's his team. LOL

Martin gets too much credit and too much blame at the same time.
I'm not sure what you're arguing about, or why. Martin is the same guy who took the team to the playoffs his two previous seasons, whose record was 13-12-7 (tied for 7th with three other teams, with two more games) when he was fired. Your "3 wins out of 10 games" statistic is skewed by your bias, since the actual record is 3-3-4, which is 10 points in 10 games. The previous 14 games they were 9-4-1 -- so what? Cherrypicking a few games proves nothing.

Martin is no miracle worker. He was just a good coach who got the most out of our roster and had them in the playoffs for two years, and knocking on the door in the third year.

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06-09-2012, 08:14 AM
  #161
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I don't know if you children realize it or not, but JM is gone. He isn't or wasn't good enough to garner all this extra attention. Can we move on please?

Or would you rather argue who is right for another 30 pages?

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06-10-2012, 04:11 PM
  #162
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I don't know if you children realize it or not, but JM is gone. He isn't or wasn't good enough to garner all this extra attention. Can we move on please?

Or would you rather argue who is right for another 30 pages?
This thread is about Randy Cunneyworth, who was appointed interim head coach of the NHL hockey team Montreal Canadiens mid-season. You may read the name "Jacques Martin" quite often because he was the previous coach who was fired amidst much controversy. Naturally, we can't discuss Cunneyworth without comparing his leadership to that of his predecessor, Martin.

I hope that clears up the mystery. Please feel free to read up on the team, its history and the passion of us fans -- and welcome to the sport!

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06-10-2012, 05:41 PM
  #163
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I'm not sure what you're arguing about, or why. Martin is the same guy who took the team to the playoffs his two previous seasons, whose record was 13-12-7 (tied for 7th with three other teams, with two more games) when he was fired. Your "3 wins out of 10 games" statistic is skewed by your bias, since the actual record is 3-3-4, which is 10 points in 10 games. The previous 14 games they were 9-4-1 -- so what? Cherrypicking a few games proves nothing.

Martin is no miracle worker. He was just a good coach who got the most out of our roster and had them in the playoffs for two years, and knocking on the door in the third year.
Picking the final 10 games is cherrypicking? Also, the Habs were not tied for 7th when Martin was fired. They were 12th and were at .500 Ottawa had the 8th spot. Habs were behind Washington, Winnipeg and Toronto.

Martin is an adequate coach. He really was nothing special though...but if you think getting grossly outshot every game, relying on a out of this world performance from your goalie and playing rope a dope hockey is "good" then I guess I can see where you're coming from. Not to mention the clown employed a chip and chase strategy with small, soft players.

He was not the right coach for this squad, period. The same guy who put Darche on the PP ahead of Cole. Keep defending this clown, you look just as silly as the Gauthier fanboys.

Pretty sure Cunney had the Habs 4 points out later in the season...I guess I'll call that "knocking on the door" too, then.

You'd think the team wasn't absolutely obliterated in the Philly series. The minute Halak became normal, the Habs got destroyed. Coincidence? I don't think so.

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06-10-2012, 05:48 PM
  #164
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Picking the final 10 games is cherrypicking? Also, the Habs were not tied for 7th when Martin was fired. They were 12th and were at .500 Ottawa had the 8th spot. Habs were behind Washington, Winnipeg and Toronto.

Martin is an adequate coach. He really was nothing special though...but if you think getting grossly outshot every game, relying on a out of this world performance from your goalie and playing rope a dope hockey is "good" then I guess I can see where you're coming from. Not to mention the clown employed a chip and chase strategy with small, soft players.

He was not the right coach for this squad, period. The same guy who put Darche on the PP ahead of Cole. Keep defending this clown, you look just as silly as the Gauthier fanboys.

Pretty sure Cunney had the Habs 4 points out later in the season...I guess I'll call that "knocking on the door" too, then.

You'd think the team wasn't absolutely obliterated in the Philly series. The minute Halak became normal, the Habs got destroyed. Coincidence? I don't think so.
Martin's squad was the first instance since the nineties of a Montreal team that consistently out shot their opponents rather than being outshot, both in 2010-11 and the 32 games he coached this last season. This has been considered significant by many.

That his replacement is a coach whose teams get outshot regularly is cause for apprehension. Not that we know absolutely if he's better or worse as a HC but because the balance of evidence is not in the new guy's favour.

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06-10-2012, 06:07 PM
  #165
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Martin's squad was the first instance since the nineties of a Montreal team that consistently out shot their opponents rather than being outshot, both in 2010-11 and the 32 games he coached this last season. This has been considered significant by many.

That his replacement is a coach whose teams get outshot regularly is cause for apprehension. Not that we know absolutely if he's better or worse as a HC but because the balance of evidence is not in the new guy's favour.
And yet during the Habs "glorious run" that Martin is hailed to be the architect of...the team was grossly outshot.

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06-10-2012, 06:53 PM
  #166
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And yet during the Habs "glorious run" that Martin is hailed to be the architect of...the team was grossly outshot.
I think that you'll find that the people who view Martin's 2010-2011 season in high regard often don't think highly of the 2009-2010 playoff run.

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06-10-2012, 07:00 PM
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I can't believe people still read newspapers.
trained editorilists > hack bloggers

Most of the time, anyways

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06-10-2012, 07:17 PM
  #168
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trained editorilists > hack bloggers

Most of the time, anyways
I don't need sports editorials at all. I like reports on facts. For as much flak that HFboards gets, there are some opinions I value more on this board than most 'trained editorilists'. And there are always my own as well. The fluff pieces by the hockeyinsideout people and their evil cousins, like pieces by Bertrand Raymod are useless to me. But that's just me.

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06-10-2012, 07:20 PM
  #169
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I think that you'll find that the people who view Martin's 2010-2011 season in high regard often don't think highly of the 2009-2010 playoff run.
Are you sure about that? All I keep hearing is how Martin willed the Habs to being a goal away from beating the Stanley Cup champs. Last year, people were saying the team was "close" because they took Boston to the brink...completely discounting that Boston did not play that well that series. Also...the Habs had a 2-0 lead going back home and it all fell apart.

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06-10-2012, 07:35 PM
  #170
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Picking the final 10 games is cherrypicking? Also, the Habs were not tied for 7th when Martin was fired. They were 12th and were at .500 Ottawa had the 8th spot. Habs were behind Washington, Winnipeg and Toronto.

Martin is an adequate coach. He really was nothing special though...but if you think getting grossly outshot every game, relying on a out of this world performance from your goalie and playing rope a dope hockey is "good" then I guess I can see where you're coming from. Not to mention the clown employed a chip and chase strategy with small, soft players.

He was not the right coach for this squad, period. The same guy who put Darche on the PP ahead of Cole. Keep defending this clown, you look just as silly as the Gauthier fanboys.

Pretty sure Cunney had the Habs 4 points out later in the season...I guess I'll call that "knocking on the door" too, then.

You'd think the team wasn't absolutely obliterated in the Philly series. The minute Halak became normal, the Habs got destroyed. Coincidence? I don't think so.
December 16 standings the day after Martin's last game the night before, December 15. Exactly as I said:

http://www.nhl.com/ice/standings.htm...ate=12/16/2011

And by the way, Cunneyworth never had the Habs 4 points out.

The rest of your post is the same old cliches repeated again and again. Martin didn't draft or trade for the roster we had, but he made the best out of it. An ECF finish is indisputably impressive, and if you think it was only due to Halak you just weren't watching. No team randomly lucks their way past a #1 seed and then the defending Cup champs. It was Martin's strong team system that compensated for the team's lack of size and stars the only way it could, even if many found it dull hockey. Philly beat us by physically shutting down our smaller skaters. It wasn't about Halak's weakness, it was about our skaters' weakness. Unfortunately, that was as far as that roster was going to take us.

The only thing you sort of got right was that Martin didn't use individuals correctly. Unfortunately, that was because he was afraid to deviate from his team-based system because we had such mediocre talent. Nobody expected Cole to do so well (probably not even Cole!). But then Randy came in and was open to letting guys like Cole off the leash, which was great. But while individuals benefited from Cunneyworth's freer philosophy, the team as a whole collapsed in the standings. What does that tell you? It says to me that while tight, smothering systems may be dull to watch and hard to take for star players, it's the only way to win with a mediocre roster.

Moving forward, as the Habs shift their focus on youth with the hopeful arrival of a few real stars, Martin would've become obsolete anyway, so I'm glad he's gone.

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06-11-2012, 12:06 PM
  #171
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Are you sure about that? All I keep hearing is how Martin willed the Habs to being a goal away from beating the Stanley Cup champs. Last year, people were saying the team was "close" because they took Boston to the brink...completely discounting that Boston did not play that well that series. Also...the Habs had a 2-0 lead going back home and it all fell apart.
You can play bad for a game, or two, when it's for a whole series then it's likely because your opponent is making you look bad.

Is it really that difficult to give some credit to the good things Martin did?
Seriously, I don't understand why people just want to constantly grill him by refusing to recognize any good thing from him. Pathetic really.

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