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2012 CBJ Offseason Part II (Proposals? Speculation? Blog Rumors? Right here.)

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Old
06-08-2012, 05:45 PM
  #101
Roadman
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Probably the biggest problem with any Schneider discussion is I don't believe anyone is really sure who if any goalie is going to be available from VAN.

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06-08-2012, 05:51 PM
  #102
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I think the difference between Luongo and Schneider is so small now and in the future that Schneider would be the one I'd look to trade. He is going to get 4 million plus contract wise most likely which isn't a huge difference from Luongo. Luongo is more proven and is likely to fetch significantly less in a trade, I personally think trading Luongo to keep Schneider would be a huge waste of maximizing there teams assets now and in the future.

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06-08-2012, 06:01 PM
  #103
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Schneider just flat out isn't worth a #2 pick. It's a terrible use of resources to trade a top 2 pick for a unproven goalie. I really feel like anybody that is arguing otherwise is just arguing because they don't want to admit that there initial opinion was just flat out wrong. If Schneider had been a starter the last 2 years and put up similar numbers, sure he's definitely worth strongly considering trading for, but not in his current situation. The difference between a all-star goalie and a good goalie is pretty small, but the difference between a #2 pick that pans out to be a 70-80 point player is a lot more significant than the likely alternative of a 50 point player that we'd have in that position two years down the road. You build from the goalie out, true, but that doesn't mean you just throw more valuable assets to stick to the goalie out cliche. Schneider is probably worth a 8-10 pick in this draft depending on who falls that far.



I would say I'd rather trade the #2 to Vancouver to make that + more substantial. Try to push hard the #2 and Tyutin for Schneider and Edler if they say no give them LA's pick as well, if they still say no offer them John Moore and they have to add Booth or Raymond. If by some chance Yakupov is there at #2 tell them #2 and Tyutin for Schneider, Edler, and push for a 3rd rounder in 13.

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06-08-2012, 06:23 PM
  #104
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MayorBee and Roadman, I hear you and understand your reasoning. Using the #2 pick on a goaltender in the draft IS a waste, but here's why I'd trade the #2 pick for a guy like Luongo or Schneider.

Goalie is the most important position on the ice. Steve Mason has single-handedly proven what it does for the team when the goalie plays well and what it does for the team when the goalie doesn't play well. It is even more important when your club is challenged to score goals - as ours is likely to be next season. So do I trade the #2 pick for a guy who has proven he can play the nets well in the NHL? Or do I keep the pick and risk that the kid I select will actually pan out to last more than a season or two at the NHL level? I trade the pick and take the sure thing.
I'm not arguing against the idea of a goalie being important, or the idea of "building from the net out", or anything else like that. My objections are entirely based on asset management. Right now, there are something like 36 contracts, plus another 12-15 players on the reserve list, plus the draft picks this year. Every one of those assets has value in the trade market, but the obvious questions are how much and how other teams value them.

We saw what merely average goaltending did for the fortunes of this team last year. Without question, an upgrade in goal is necessary. Taking one of the three biggest assets the team has available (Johansen and Nash being the others) and sinking it all into a goalie, particularly a 26-year-old with less than 70 NHL games, isn't good management of assets. If this were a 26-year-old Luongo, sure.

Imagine, if you will, someone whose entire love of cars consists of using it to get to work and back home. There's no tinkering, there's no cosmetic work...the car is a tool, and nothing else. Now let's say that that person's 1999 Chrysler Concorde starts having problems that will eventually cause its demise. This person has $50,000 in the bank.
- I'm suggesting that, in this situation, the person should look at the used car lots. Maybe he can find a decent used car for $3,000 that he'll get another five years of use out of. It won't win any races or beauty contests, but it gets the job done and is a reliable workhorse. $3,000 and a couple of minor repairs to get five years and 75,000 miles out of means that he has a car and now $47,000 in the bank.
- You're suggesting that he should go buy a Porsche, but from a year and model that's kind of iffy on performance. There are a lot of lemons from that year and model, but those who don't have problems with it swear it's the greatest thing ever made. Now he has a car, but absolutely no liquid assets (draft picks are the same as cash); his only assets are all hard goods. And it's a 50:50 shot of it even working out at all; if it doesn't, he now has a $50,000 car that's no better than what he could have bought off the used car lot and saved a ton of money on.

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06-08-2012, 06:25 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by EspenK View Post
x2. This. Seconded.

Great scott.

I can't understand why you (Doug61) are so eager to deal from what little strength the CBJ have (defense) by dealing a young talent like Moore or an established player like Tyutin PLUS the #2 for, as you said, an unproven goaltender + whatever.

I understand 'give to get', but that is way too high a price, IMO. I wouldn't trade the 2nd alone or with anything for anyone who isn't already starting, and top 8 in the league for more than 1 season.


Last edited by SuperGenius: 06-08-2012 at 07:53 PM.
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06-08-2012, 07:40 PM
  #106
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so trade Nash to TOR for #5, keep #2 use on Galy, trade #5 to VAN for Schneider and another piece...sign me up
Yep, that was starring me in the face and I missed it....

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06-08-2012, 08:23 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by SuperGenius View Post
x2. This. Seconded.

Great scott.

I can't understand why you (Doug61) are so eager to deal from what little strength the CBJ have (defense) by dealing a young talent like Moore or an established player like Tyutin PLUS the #2 for, as you said, an unproven goaltender + whatever.

I understand 'give to get', but that is way too high a price, IMO. I wouldn't trade the 2nd alone or with anything for anyone who isn't already starting, and top 8 in the league for more than 1 season.
uhhhh Dealing from a position of strength? How exactly does that work if the other team is sending back a defender that is an upgrade over everything you already have? Schneider isn't the big dog in that trade, Edler is.

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06-08-2012, 08:46 PM
  #108
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You are a brave man leesmith. Expect a bunch of statistics, patterns and venom to be spewed forth to tell you why you are wrong.
I prefer to just go with common sense actually.

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06-08-2012, 08:53 PM
  #109
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I prefer to just go with common sense actually.

On HF????

A rare commodity.

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06-08-2012, 08:57 PM
  #110
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uhhhh Dealing from a position of strength? How exactly does that work if the other team is sending back a defender that is an upgrade over everything you already have? Schneider isn't the big dog in that trade, Edler is.
Either way, that's too high a price to pay. I think you are undervaluing the #2. now, if the CBJ ended up with the #2 and #5 and could get that for the #5, I would be more into it.

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06-08-2012, 09:41 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
Imagine, if you will, someone whose entire love of cars consists of using it to get to work and back home. There's no tinkering, there's no cosmetic work...the car is a tool, and nothing else. Now let's say that that person's 1999 Chrysler Concorde starts having problems that will eventually cause its demise. This person has $50,000 in the bank.
- I'm suggesting that, in this situation, the person should look at the used car lots. Maybe he can find a decent used car for $3,000 that he'll get another five years of use out of. It won't win any races or beauty contests, but it gets the job done and is a reliable workhorse. $3,000 and a couple of minor repairs to get five years and 75,000 miles out of means that he has a car and now $47,000 in the bank.
- You're suggesting that he should go buy a Porsche, but from a year and model that's kind of iffy on performance. There are a lot of lemons from that year and model, but those who don't have problems with it swear it's the greatest thing ever made. Now he has a car, but absolutely no liquid assets (draft picks are the same as cash); his only assets are all hard goods. And it's a 50:50 shot of it even working out at all; if it doesn't, he now has a $50,000 car that's no better than what he could have bought off the used car lot and saved a ton of money on.
I get your point, but here's where the analogy falls apart. I really don't consider Schneider a Porsche. Quick, Lundqvist and now Smith are the Porsches.

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06-08-2012, 09:46 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by leesmith View Post
I get your point, but here's where the analogy falls apart. I really don't consider Schneider a Porsche. Quick, Lundqvist and now Smith are the Porsches.
Smith? I know he's a fav for some around here and he had a good season after Tampa and the AHL but Quick good? No way.

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06-08-2012, 09:55 PM
  #113
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I get your point, but here's where the analogy falls apart. I really don't consider Schneider a Porsche. Quick, Lundqvist and now Smith are the Porsches.
Doesn't matter if he's a Porsche or not, the asking price is analogous to one.

Lundqvist, Quick, Rinne...they might be worth #2 overall. Schneider? No.

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06-09-2012, 07:05 AM
  #114
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Imagine how happy the guys who bought 66 Mustangs (in 1966) are.
They probably never imagined it would become a classic - just thought it was a great car and they were impressed by it.

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06-09-2012, 08:48 AM
  #115
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Well, that depends on a few factors. There are some topics that I just avoid for one reason or another. I do tend to end up in ones where there are ridiculous ideas likely to be bandied about, which is why you'll find my name in the trade board threads. No shortage of ridiculousity coming from there...

Also consider that I usually have 8-10 tabs or windows open on my browser at a given time, and possibly other programs as well. This slows down my actual post time; I can't tell you how many times I'll wrap up three at about the same time, then have to twiddle my thumbs waiting because flood control is on.

It also depends on how much information can be brought to the table. I'm an absolute information junkie; I'd either be an exceptional teacher or a poor one. Exceptional because I'd be teaching students how to approach a subject from all points, how to argue logically, and how to realize that you're very rarely going to have an ironclad argument because even poor debaters are at least within a mile of the truth. Poor because I'd probably never really get to the point. I'm the end result of what happens when you take a borderline autistic child (in a time when, if you could function socially to even a moderate extent, you were fine), put him in a room full of various non-fiction books, and see him spend his free time elbows-deep in information.
Goodness. No wonder we get along so well.

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06-09-2012, 11:26 AM
  #116
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A proposal on the Trade board:

Brass and Tyutin

For

Neuwirth, #11 pick in this draft, and Shultz

I suggested that it might look better from our side by switching Methot in; but I'm not good at these things, plus I know nothing about Shultz and I'm not Brassard's biggest fan around here. I do think the goalie has value, as does the pick. Any thoughts?

Edit: by the way, I am instituting a new personal rule - never open another trade proposal involving the Toronto Maple Leafs.

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06-09-2012, 11:53 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by pete goegan View Post
A proposal on the Trade board:

Brass and Tyutin

For

Neuwirth, #11 pick in this draft, and Shultz

I suggested that it might look better from our side by switching Methot in; but I'm not good at these things, plus I know nothing about Shultz and I'm not Brassard's biggest fan around here. I do think the goalie has value, as does the pick. Any thoughts?

Edit: by the way, I am instituting a new personal rule - never open another trade proposal involving the Toronto Maple Leafs.
Its probably fair value but we need to keep Brass and I would like to keep Tyutin.

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06-09-2012, 12:05 PM
  #118
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Its probably fair value but we need to keep Brass and I would like to keep Tyutin.
Caveat - we only need to keep him if we don't get Galy in draft and Nash trade doesn't return us a solid top 6 center

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06-09-2012, 12:21 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by pete goegan View Post
A proposal on the Trade board:

Brass and Tyutin

For

Neuwirth, #11 pick in this draft, and Shultz

I suggested that it might look better from our side by switching Methot in; but I'm not good at these things, plus I know nothing about Shultz and I'm not Brassard's biggest fan around here. I do think the goalie has value, as does the pick. Any thoughts?

Edit: by the way, I am instituting a new personal rule - never open another trade proposal involving the Toronto Maple Leafs.
It would be tough to give up both of those players, but the value is probably fair.

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Old
06-09-2012, 01:31 PM
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pete goegan View Post
A proposal on the Trade board:

Brass and Tyutin

For

Neuwirth, #11 pick in this draft, and Shultz

I suggested that it might look better from our side by switching Methot in; but I'm not good at these things, plus I know nothing about Shultz and I'm not Brassard's biggest fan around here. I do think the goalie has value, as does the pick. Any thoughts?

Edit: by the way, I am instituting a new personal rule - never open another trade proposal involving the Toronto Maple Leafs.
In other words we give up our #1 center and #3-4 defenseman for a goaltender, #6-7 defenseman, and the 11th overall.,

Big no from me. Schultz and Methot are practically carbon copies of each other so having both of them is pretty silly, and giving up Tyutin for him is a massive downgrade. Neuvirth is good but he's pretty inconsistent, not sure he'll ever be a legitimate starter.

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06-09-2012, 01:48 PM
  #121
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Schultz is god awful. No thanks

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Old
06-09-2012, 01:49 PM
  #122
pete goegan
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In other words we give up our #1 center and #3-4 defenseman for a goaltender, #6-7 defenseman, and the 11th overall.,

Big no from me. Schultz and Methot are practically carbon copies of each other so having both of them is pretty silly, and giving up Tyutin for him is a massive downgrade. Neuvirth is good but he's pretty inconsistent, not sure he'll ever be a legitimate starter.
Not arguing with your evaluation, but I will point out that I suggested subbing Methot for Tyutin in the trade and that Brass is our top line center pretty much by default.

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06-09-2012, 03:33 PM
  #123
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Goodness. No wonder we get along so well.
A few weeks ago, my wife and I went out to dinner with one of my longtime friends and his fiancee. Somehow the topic turned to literature, and my friend started talking about fiction the same way that I do, which is basically, "If I'm reading, I want to be learning something. Fiction is a waste of time." My wife stares at him, then at his fiancee, and says, "These two have been friends since grade school, and I think I just found out why."

Come to think of it, this has happened multiple times with other friends, with her having exactly the same reaction.

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06-09-2012, 03:49 PM
  #124
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Smith? I know he's a fav for some around here and he had a good season after Tampa and the AHL but Quick good? No way.
Smith is a Porsche Cayenne.


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06-09-2012, 03:52 PM
  #125
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A few weeks ago, my wife and I went out to dinner with one of my longtime friends and his fiancee. Somehow the topic turned to literature, and my friend started talking about fiction the same way that I do, which is basically, "If I'm reading, I want to be learning something. Fiction is a waste of time." My wife stares at him, then at his fiancee, and says, "These two have been friends since grade school, and I think I just found out why."

Come to think of it, this has happened multiple times with other friends, with her having exactly the same reaction.
I believe that your're mistaken in thinking nothing can be learned from fiction. If you choose to learn nothing from the imagination of others, you're limited to only what you, yourself, can imagine. That seems very limiting to me.


Last edited by pete goegan: 06-09-2012 at 05:29 PM.
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