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06-09-2012, 01:20 PM
  #951
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This is going to get confusing with two Offseason move topics on going.

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06-09-2012, 01:21 PM
  #952
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This is going to get confusing with two Offseason move topics on going.
yeah, part 2 was definitely started prematurely

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06-09-2012, 02:10 PM
  #953
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We have had this conversation before. I have seen plenty of the Caps, more than most of you I would guess (at least 20 per year in the last few years).

I never said he can't play defense, but he is very much a one-dimensional player. Yes, he was better this year, but IMO that was due to the fact that he knewmhis time was up in Wash and he is trying to get a good contract. On that note, I see him as a VERY big risk (just because signing a FA doesn't cost other assets, doesn't mean it doesn't come with risk. And further to that, MioKid... claiming others don't understand simply because they have a different opinion tahn you, will not garner you much respect).

Finally, I was not comparing Glencross to Semin. Check my original post. My point was that signing Semin to $7m would piss off guys who have signed home town discounts (such as Glencross). If I am GLencross and my icetime is seriously cut for a selfish player like Semin who is getting almost 3 times as much money as me, I am going to be pissed (especially since I have been putting up similar numbers for the past couple years).

Finally, those were not "struggles" for Semin, those were numbers posted over two full seasons, when he was attempting to improve his defense and the Caps weren't simply trying to outscore the other team. In other words, those were two full seasons that would be much more indicative of what we would see from him here in Calgary. Oh, and I don't think it's fair to call Glencross' numbers "peak" either. Unlike Semin, Glencross is trending in the right direction - there is no reason to think he has peaked and won't continue to give us those numbers.

I don't disagree that the Flames need more high end skill - that is a given.

But opening the vault for Semin would be a massive mistake. Signing him to a 1 or 2 year deal around $4m per would be fine - but of course, he will likely get much more than that, so the FLames should pass.
I do not disagree with you entirely, because you present the argument if we were to sign Semin and the experiment failed miserably which is a possibility. Just to play Devil's advocate here, I would to like make a couple of points.

First, you say that a guy like Glencross may be upset with the contract Semin would get. But what about a guy like Iginla. If he stays here, the Flames owe it to him to try and produce the best lineup possible that is worthy of being considered a contender. I think everyone in Calgary can agree that the Flames are not a contending team as stands, if they do not try to get to that level then they should trade Iginla so he has a shot at a Cup.

And secondly, while nothing can guarantee Cup, the other side of your argument is that Hartley lights a fire under Semin and he puts up good numbers and that gives 3 scoring lines. If Semin worked in Calgary, I think we are a playoff team that has good depth given that we have added Baertschi, Cervenka, Semin and have Cammy for a full season. That is way more skill than we have scene in Calgary for a long time.

Again, I'm not arguing with you because you have valid points. I'm just pointing to the other side of this coin. I think if we are going for it, we just jump in with both feet when you consider our options.

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06-09-2012, 04:04 PM
  #954
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I do not disagree with you entirely, because you present the argument if we were to sign Semin and the experiment failed miserably which is a possibility. Just to play Devil's advocate here, I would to like make a couple of points.

First, you say that a guy like Glencross may be upset with the contract Semin would get. But what about a guy like Iginla. If he stays here, the Flames owe it to him to try and produce the best lineup possible that is worthy of being considered a contender. I think everyone in Calgary can agree that the Flames are not a contending team as stands, if they do not try to get to that level then they should trade Iginla so he has a shot at a Cup.

And secondly, while nothing can guarantee Cup, the other side of your argument is that Hartley lights a fire under Semin and he puts up good numbers and that gives 3 scoring lines. If Semin worked in Calgary, I think we are a playoff team that has good depth given that we have added Baertschi, Cervenka, Semin and have Cammy for a full season. That is way more skill than we have scene in Calgary for a long time.

Again, I'm not arguing with you because you have valid points. I'm just pointing to the other side of this coin. I think if we are going for it, we just jump in with both feet when you consider our options.
All good questions.

I think it's a fair assumption that Iggy wants to win (as do all players) and improving the team is a welcome event.

However, improving the team is not as simple as throwing money at every UFA. It is a question of value at the margin: yes, the Flames need more high end talent. But they are curerntly strongest on the wing and bringing in Semin means less icetime for players like Glencross. Would that result in more offence? Probably, but how much better would the team be? Probably not much, and possibly worse - certainly, IMO, not $7m worth of better.

Most importantly, spending that kind of money on Semin seriously inhibits their ability to acquire pieces that are in more need, such as a top 2 D and a top C. (Yes, I know, cap space is only useful if you use it. But if you don't have it, you can't go after the pieces you need - and the Flames need other pieces more than they need wingers)

If Hartley were able to get the most out of Semin then, yes that would improve the team. Also, no one would resent him getting that kind of money if he delivered (with the possible exception of players that lost icetime, but if the team is better, too bad). If he lights it up and helps the team make the playoffs, I'll be on here to say I was wrong.

But that is extremely unlikely IMO.

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06-09-2012, 04:18 PM
  #955
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Originally Posted by OrrwastheBeatles View Post
All good questions.

I think it's a fair assumption that Iggy wants to win (as do all players) and improving the team is a welcome event.

However, improving the team is not as simple as throwing money at every UFA. It is a question of value at the margin: yes, the Flames need more high end talent. But they are curerntly strongest on the wing and bringing in Semin means less icetime for players like Glencross. Would that result in more offence? Probably, but how much better would the team be? Probably not much, and possibly worse - certainly, IMO, not $7m worth of better.

Most importantly, spending that kind of money on Semin seriously inhibits their ability to acquire pieces that are in more need, such as a top 2 D and a top C. (Yes, I know, cap space is only useful if you use it. But if you don't have it, you can't go after the pieces you need - and the Flames need other pieces more than they need wingers)

If Hartley were able to get the most out of Semin then, yes that would improve the team. Also, no one would resent him getting that kind of money if he delivered (with the possible exception of players that lost icetime, but if the team is better, too bad). If he lights it up and helps the team make the playoffs, I'll be on here to say I was wrong.

But that is extremely unlikely IMO.
Again all valid points. Only time will tell if Semin would actually signed here anyways.

Last things I will say are, we keep hearing from Sutter, Feaster, hell I'll even throw Al Coates name in there that the Flames need a #1 centre. The fact is, there are not any available out there. We missed out on Carter, Staal is out there but he isn't a true #1C. Richards signed in NY, Getzlaf I highly doubt will go to market. So I don't know where where that centre is going to come from. D. Sutter made the biggest play in getting one when he acquired Jokinen. Fact is, the only way we get one is draft one.

Same with a top paring dman. Suter is out there, but people are fooling themselves if they think we have a shot at him. Again, short of a rebuild and trading a top player from our team we will need to draft this type of player. It is easier to acquire thru trade than getting a #1C, but it is still extremely challenging.

Until then, I think scoring by committee is the best approach if we are going for it. Which means I would sign Semin if I were Feaster and I would do so by offering the most money. I would have a top line, then a 2a and 2b line that get equal ice time unless one line is hotter than the others, they would get the most icetime and that applies to the top line as well.

I'm not going to sit here and sing Semin's praises because he is far from the perfect player, but given our situation I think it is worth while for the Flames to take some risks. We are not winning the Cup as it stands now, so why not take a chance on something that could pay off? Being real, I think Semin is about the only realistic big talent out there that could be had.

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06-09-2012, 04:23 PM
  #956
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Again all valid points. Only time will tell if Semin would actually signed here anyways.

Last things I will say are, we keep hearing from Sutter, Feaster, hell I'll even throw Al Coates name in there that the Flames need a #1 centre. The fact is, there are not any available out there. We missed out on Carter, Staal is out there but he isn't a true #1C. Richards signed in NY, Getzlaf I highly doubt will go to market. So I don't know where where that centre is going to come from. D. Sutter made the biggest play in getting one when he acquired Jokinen. Fact is, the only way we get one is draft one.

Same with a top paring dman. Suter is out there, but people are fooling themselves if they think we have a shot at him. Again, short of a rebuild and trading a top player from our team we will need to draft this type of player. It is easier to acquire thru trade than getting a #1C, but it is still extremely challenging.

Until then, I think scoring by committee is the best approach if we are going for it. Which means I would sign Semin if I were Feaster and I would do so by offering the most money. I would have a top line, then a 2a and 2b line that get equal ice time unless one line is hotter than the others, they would get the most icetime and that applies to the top line as well.

I'm not going to sit here and sing Semin's praises because he is far from the perfect player, but given our situation I think it is worth while for the Flames to take some risks. We are not winning the Cup as it stands now, so why not take a chance on something that could pay off? Being real, I think Semin is about the only realistic big talent out there that could be had.
great post

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06-09-2012, 04:37 PM
  #957
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Again all valid points. Only time will tell if Semin would actually signed here anyways.

Last things I will say are, we keep hearing from Sutter, Feaster, hell I'll even throw Al Coates name in there that the Flames need a #1 centre. The fact is, there are not any available out there. We missed out on Carter, Staal is out there but he isn't a true #1C. Richards signed in NY, Getzlaf I highly doubt will go to market. So I don't know where where that centre is going to come from. D. Sutter made the biggest play in getting one when he acquired Jokinen. Fact is, the only way we get one is draft one.

Same with a top paring dman. Suter is out there, but people are fooling themselves if they think we have a shot at him. Again, short of a rebuild and trading a top player from our team we will need to draft this type of player. It is easier to acquire thru trade than getting a #1C, but it is still extremely challenging.

Until then, I think scoring by committee is the best approach if we are going for it. Which means I would sign Semin if I were Feaster and I would do so by offering the most money. I would have a top line, then a 2a and 2b line that get equal ice time unless one line is hotter than the others, they would get the most icetime and that applies to the top line as well.

I'm not going to sit here and sing Semin's praises because he is far from the perfect player, but given our situation I think it is worth while for the Flames to take some risks. We are not winning the Cup as it stands now, so why not take a chance on something that could pay off? Being real, I think Semin is about the only realistic big talent out there that could be had.
All good points. And yes, there are no #1 Cs available right now. But the team will not be competitive until they do acquire one, so I believe that maintaining flexibility is vital.

To the bold: why not? - because if he doesn't work out, you have yet another horrible, unmovable contract on the books for 3 years. And IMO, there is a very good chance that it doesn' t work out. Semin with a fat contract = Bourque.

The Flames problems stem from two things:
1) bad drafting for the last 10 years or so (prior to 2011), and
2) horrible contracts that have restricted their ability to address their problems.

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06-09-2012, 04:47 PM
  #958
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All good points. And yes, there are no #1 Cs available right now. But the team will not be competitive until they do
I completely disagree.

the Devils have Zajac, Henrique and Zubrus as their top 3 centers, none of which are a #1 center.

the Coyotes have Vermette, Langkow and Hanzal as their top 3 centers, none of which are a #1 center.

so 2 of the final 4 teams do no have what most would consider to be a #1 center, does this mean you do not think they are competitive?

a weakness at center is like any other weakness, you have to make up for it in other ways. the devils and coyotes do it with sheer depth and strong character with strong goaltending. the Wings went forever without a star goaltender and remained competitive because they build a team that could play in the other teams zone.

the Flames can overcome a weakness at center, but if it remains weak they need to sure up the defense as well and keep 3 lines that can produce due to strong wingers.

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06-09-2012, 04:53 PM
  #959
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The Devils and Yotes strongest points is the coaching, imo. If Hartley can utilize the lack of talent in Calgary, they can overcome the lack of the #1. However, I doubt Calgary will go as far as Phoenix or New Jersey again because we have no talents like Parise or Kovalchuk until Bart pans out (if he does), or the depth of the Coyotes to compensate.

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06-09-2012, 04:57 PM
  #960
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The Devils and Yotes strongest points is the coaching, imo. If Hartley can utilize the lack of talent in Calgary, they can overcome the lack of the #1. However, I doubt Calgary will go as far as Phoenix or New Jersey again because we have no talents like Parise or Kovalchuk until Bart pans out (if he does), or the depth of the Coyotes to compensate.
I never suggest improvements weren't needed, and its funny you think De Boer is the reason they are doing so well in New Jersey when he completely failed in Florida. Maybe its a case where its the right coach with the right team, like Hitchcock in St. Louis. Another team without a true #1 center that is pretty competitive

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06-09-2012, 05:04 PM
  #961
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I completely disagree.

the Devils have Zajac, Henrique and Zubrus as their top 3 centers, none of which are a #1 center.

the Coyotes have Vermette, Langkow and Hanzal as their top 3 centers, none of which are a #1 center.

so 2 of the final 4 teams do no have what most would consider to be a #1 center, does this mean you do not think they are competitive?

a weakness at center is like any other weakness, you have to make up for it in other ways. the devils and coyotes do it with sheer depth and strong character with strong goaltending. the Wings went forever without a star goaltender and remained competitive because they build a team that could play in the other teams zone.

the Flames can overcome a weakness at center, but if it remains weak they need to sure up the defense as well and keep 3 lines that can produce due to strong wingers.
Semantics. I am not going to restart the debate about what is or isn't a #1 C.

The point is that the Flames problems aren't at wing, they are at C and D. And until they improve those positions, adding a guy like Semin to the mix is pretty much irrelevant.

Good teams are built up the middle. None of Zajac, Henrique or Zubrus are "#1 Cs" in the top line, Getzlaf, definition. However, they are solid as a group.

As for the Yotes, Vermette did a very nice job as a temporary #1 this year. And Hanzal is a very solid #2.

No comparison to the Flames at all, and it is not a debatable issue that the Flames are terrible up the middle. Adding Semin is not going to help them 'overcome' their weakness at C

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06-09-2012, 05:14 PM
  #962
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Semantics. I am not going to restart the debate about what is or isn't a #1 C.

The point is that the Flames problems aren't at wing, they are at C and D. And until they improve those positions, adding a guy like Semin to the mix is pretty much irrelevant.

Good teams are built up the middle. None of Zajac, Henrique or Zubrus are "#1 Cs" in the top line, Getzlaf, definition. However, they are solid as a group.

As for the Yotes, Vermette did a very nice job as a temporary #1 this year. And Hanzal is a very solid #2.

No comparison to the Flames at all, and it is not a debatable issue that the Flames are terrible up the middle. Adding Semin is not going to help them 'overcome' their weakness at C
my god do you read what you write? you stated a team can not be competitive without a #1 center. I have listed 3 teams that were.


I also never suggested we didn't need to improve, in fact I have advocated just the opposite.

And my point was when you have a deficiency you overload in other areas to make up for it. Sometimes that is with wingers.

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06-09-2012, 05:14 PM
  #963
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I never suggest improvements weren't needed, and its funny you think De Boer is the reason they are doing so well in New Jersey when he completely failed in Florida. Maybe its a case where its the right coach with the right team, like Hitchcock in St. Louis. Another team without a true #1 center that is pretty competitive
I wouldn't say he failed in Florida. I mean, they weren't exactly a good team and he took them to 9th in the East, which they lost a tie breaker to the Habs IIRC and missed the playoffs. Now that he has a better team to coach, he's showing his true ability as a coach.

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06-09-2012, 05:19 PM
  #964
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my god do you read what you write? you stated a team can not be competitive without a #1 center. I have listed 3 teams that were.


I also never suggested we didn't need to improve, in fact I have advocated just the opposite.

And my point was when you have a deficiency you overload in other areas to make up for it. Sometimes that is with wingers.
A team can have depth at the C position (like NJ) without having a star #1.

That does not change the fact that C is a vital position and that is where the Flames need to improve.

Yes, no team is strong everywhere and strengths in some areas can overcome some weaknesses in others. You mentioned Detroit - yes they overcame average goaltending, because they had arguably the best D core in the league, as well as the best defensive C in the league.

If you think the Flames can overcome their C deficiency by adding Semin, then good luck to you.

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06-09-2012, 05:29 PM
  #965
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A team can have depth at the C position (like NJ) without having a star #1.

That does not change the fact that C is a vital position and that is where the Flames need to improve.

Yes, no team is strong everywhere and strengths in some areas can overcome some weaknesses in others. You mentioned Detroit - yes they overcame average goaltending, because they had arguably the best D core in the league, as well as the best defensive C in the league.

If you think the FLames can overcome their C deficiency by adding Semin, then good luck to you.
that is not what you said though. you stated that no team could be competitive without a #1 center, then when I pointed out you were wrong you claimed it was semantics. You were wrong, deal with it.

And no one said Semin would help the center situation, my god you just take everything to a damn extreme and never seem to comprehend what people are saying. Maybe you will understand point form better?

- The Flames are not and will not be cup contenders for the next few years
- We need to improve our forwards
- We need more scoring
- Semin is not a center but he adds scoring
- Therefore he could be PART of the solution to making this team BETTER

Do you get it now? I don't know how you figure the guy will make our team worse, that is so...... lets say "misinformed". Semin will improve our offense, he would make our winger depth better. He is average defensively so its unlikely he would hurt us on the ice.

A signing like Semin would be to help us remain competitive while rebuilding. It would be to add a piece to help us be a playoff team without giving up assets in return.

I am not advocating signing the guy, personally I want no part in any Russians on the Flames, but your stance is beyond ludicrous. Just stop the arguing and just say the truth instead of making up BS arguments.

That truth being you don't like Semin so you don't want him signed.

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06-09-2012, 05:42 PM
  #966
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You were wrong, deal with it.

you just take everything to a damn extreme and never seem to comprehend what people are saying.

your stance is beyond ludicrous.

Just stop the arguing and just say the truth

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06-10-2012, 12:10 AM
  #967
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I am not advocating signing the guy, personally I want no part in any Russians on the Flames, but your stance is beyond ludicrous. Just stop the arguing and just say the truth instead of making up BS arguments.
What kind of backwards Racism is that?
3/4 of the final four had Russian players, and in the finals Russia is represented well.

Take that thinking back to pre-'91 please. If you can't see skill for skill, and instead see nationality, something's wrong.

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06-10-2012, 01:29 AM
  #968
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It was mentioned on CP, but if Guillaume Latendresse is not qualified by Minnesota, I would definitely be on board with adding him to our roster.

He has struggled mightily to stay healthy recently, but he is a very solid hockey player.

Seems worthy of taking a gamble on in my opinion.

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06-10-2012, 01:38 AM
  #969
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It was mentioned on CP, but if Guillaume Latendresse is not qualified by Minnesota, I would definitely be on board with adding him to our roster.

He has struggled mightily to stay healthy recently, but he is a very solid hockey player.

Seems worthy of taking a gamble on in my opinion.
Agreed but he has only played 27 games in the last 2 seasons I believe so a gamble it would be.

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06-10-2012, 09:05 AM
  #970
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It was mentioned on CP, but if Guillaume Latendresse is not qualified by Minnesota, I would definitely be on board with adding him to our roster.

He has struggled mightily to stay healthy recently, but he is a very solid hockey player.

Seems worthy of taking a gamble on in my opinion.
I really feel sorry for this guy, big size, skill and just a nose for the game... hasn't played a full year yet in his career.
If he could get this health thing down, he could easily be a 50+ point a guy a year.

Also, I wouldn't be surprised to see a few more Quebec born players by the start of the year.

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