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Biggest flaw of Torts system

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Old
06-06-2012, 05:49 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
They have better forwards - and more of them.
This is true, although its worth mentioning that LA is probably going to have played less games in 4 rounds than we did in 3. With relatively little pressure too.

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06-06-2012, 07:18 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by vipernsx View Post
More like Completely True. I didn't say it didn't exist, I said it didn't become popular. The Stretch pass is used far more today then ever before. Most teams are using some version of it and that hasn't always been the case. Lengthening the defensive zone and removing the 2-line pass has absolutely fostered the implementation and POPULARITY of the stretch pass!


The Ranger's system is to congest the middle of the ice, keep pucks to the outside, and get it out of the zone as quickly as possible. And guess what, it works!


Gap control, better defensive systems and bigger faster skaters are the reason why players can't handle the pucks as well anymore. Its true not only with the Rangers, but all around the league. Watch more than just the highlights and you'll see that no forward has time to look down at the puck, collect, and move forward with a play anymore. Those that do, end up in highlights as scoring opportunities due to defensive lapses or bone crushing body checks where the forward was flattened.
1)Since you chose to ignore what I commented on in my response. I will reiterate, not all teams over rely on the stretch pass. I said the quality teams allow the D men to skate the puck pass the hash marks and allow shorter passes to their forwards. I can't think of a single team in the NHL that over uses the stretch pass as much as the New York Rangers. All teams use it once in a while to keep teams honest. But I can't think of any that create an entire breakout system like the New York Rangers. I honestly have no idea what league you are watching where there is this massive overuse. Have you seen LA's breakouts? You pick and chose the time to try stretch passes(bad line changes, poor defensive coverage). You don't force them. How many times do we have to utilize stretch pass tip ins??

2)Defensive zone coverage and breakouts, though related, are not mutually inclusive. Just because we have a collapsing zone D does not mean we have to rely on stretch passes. Or are you commenting on something all together different? What we do with the puck once we have it is not synonymous to how we get it. Far too often I saw our Dmen try long passes out of our zone when they were completely un pressured in the corners. No poise, and wings not supporting the puck along the wall.

3)Do we watch the same team? The Rangers struggle with 4ft passes. I saw constantly this season the Rangers stumbling over themselves when trying to receive the puck uncovered. Collectively, our team handles the puck poorly, and doesn't pass all that well(which is further complicated with a poor breakout strategy). That has little to do with opposing team Dmen, and has most to do with the quality of forwards.

Btw, I find it amusing that you seem to forget that during the dead puck era. The stretch pass was used constantly by speedier teams to beat the Neutral Zone trap. For example, Colorado did it during their cup run in 2001, and Tampa in 2004. There really isn't any more proliferation.


Last edited by Blueshirt Believer: 06-06-2012 at 07:49 PM.
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06-07-2012, 08:01 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by BlueshirtBlitz View Post
Torts has come out and said that he'd work with a guy who doesn't fit in his philosophy. Besides MZA, who I think we mishandled, every "skill" guy he's gone through like W2 and EC aren't even great skill players to begin with.

Give Torts another Gaborik like player to play on a top 6 wing and I guarantee you he fits just fine.
Yeah, but its also a question of who we pick up. Its no coincidence that we have added playes like Prust, Fedetenko and co.

And you also use the word "great". My point is really the opposite. You are in trouble if you can't work with great players, sure. But to start with -- in a cap world -- you need to be able to work with flawed players.

I mentioned Michael Ryder in Boston for example. He is certainly flawed, somewhat soft, often accused of floating etc. Boston was not that type of team when they won -- but Ryder was essential for them because he provided ability's that the teams as a whole lacked.

I just think its a fact that we as a team lack "skill" and our coach has -- as of this date -- not been able to even remotely work with skilled but half-flawed players. While its been the opposite with unskilled hardworking players who he have done a great job with.

To win a cup, we need both. We need a coach that can get alot out of a Prust, but also out of a offensively talented players who is not perfect in other regards. I know Torts himself said just that, but he needs to prove it too.

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06-07-2012, 08:12 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Edge View Post
I think the arguments against Torts are, in some cases, actually pointing to what others are saying.

The Rangers defense could not afford to be anything less than perfect, because the offense just wasn't there.

We can point to backchecking mistakes and pinching situations that didn't work, but the bottom line is that those things only matter as much as they do because you knew the Rangers weren't likely to score and erase the occassional mistake.

And if you knew it as a fan, you darn well better believe the other team knew. Essentially, the better teams gave us the Darren Langdon treatment. And eventually, after a serious of very long "bouts" we were vulnerable.
I think the bolded part is a very dangerous attitude too. Its like we are begining to buy our own hype at times, which if nothing else was obvious when Torts sent Bickel/Emminger out as a forward when Prust went down.

Lets not talk about being perfect defensively, lets start with better than avg for example if we talk about our play against NJD in the PO's. The highlights are still up at nhl.com. Go watch them from all 6 games -- we are not talking about 2 or 3 gaffs defensively per game, more like 10-15.

There is alot of talk about how we do not want to upset chemistry and of how what we did was great and we shouldn't risk trying to upgrade players/get a few diffrent types of players onto the roster -- because of that. Like why change whats not broken.

The question I ask myself is, do we really stand to loose that much? How much do we have to thank Hanks for?

-What did our forwards produce offensively?
Hagelin 0+3. Brandon Prust 1+1. John Mitchell 0+1. Mike Rupp 0+0. Derek Stepan 1+8. And so forth.

-Okey, but did they do a good checking job? Were they good defensively? Did they win momentum for us?
To be be perfectly honest, these guys struggled alot against their peers of the 8th seed, 7th seed and 6th seed of the EC. Thats the problem.

To be fair, what these guys do bring is a attitude in the lockerroom for sure. But I wouldn't be afraid of having 1 or 2 players brought into the room of ours because of that.

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06-07-2012, 08:20 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Blueshirt Believer View Post
1)Since you chose to ignore what I commented on in my response. I will reiterate, not all teams over rely on the stretch pass. I said the quality teams allow the D men to skate the puck pass the hash marks and allow shorter passes to their forwards. I can't think of a single team in the NHL that over uses the stretch pass as much as the New York Rangers. All teams use it once in a while to keep teams honest. But I can't think of any that create an entire breakout system like the New York Rangers. I honestly have no idea what league you are watching where there is this massive overuse. Have you seen LA's breakouts? You pick and chose the time to try stretch passes(bad line changes, poor defensive coverage). You don't force them. How many times do we have to utilize stretch pass tip ins??

2)Defensive zone coverage and breakouts, though related, are not mutually inclusive. Just because we have a collapsing zone D does not mean we have to rely on stretch passes. Or are you commenting on something all together different? What we do with the puck once we have it is not synonymous to how we get it. Far too often I saw our Dmen try long passes out of our zone when they were completely un pressured in the corners. No poise, and wings not supporting the puck along the wall.

3)Do we watch the same team? The Rangers struggle with 4ft passes. I saw constantly this season the Rangers stumbling over themselves when trying to receive the puck uncovered. Collectively, our team handles the puck poorly, and doesn't pass all that well(which is further complicated with a poor breakout strategy). That has little to do with opposing team Dmen, and has most to do with the quality of forwards.

Btw, I find it amusing that you seem to forget that during the dead puck era. The stretch pass was used constantly by speedier teams to beat the Neutral Zone trap. For example, Colorado did it during their cup run in 2001, and Tampa in 2004. There really isn't any more proliferation.
Truth the be told, I think both of you are wrong. We use a stretch pass were we only, without exception almost, looks to take the puck forward instantly after the pass connects.

Both Philly and NJD, for example, basically never takes the puck N-S after a long stretch pass. They use the stretch pass to i) push the other team back, ii) after the pass it made, they move it E-W to a player coming up ice with speed iii) who can then challenge a defense that is standing still with speed. Its actually not correct to say that our stretch pass is even used by all teams in this league (except like to get a linechange on the odd occasion).

When both NJD and Philly wants to gain the redline -- they use a short option that gains the redline and dumps the puck in. The set play where you make a long pass up ice, just redirects the puck into the attacking zone and then goes after it is just not in these teams repetoair.

Boston, Carolina, Buffalo and co uses it though. Its a matter of philosopy. Boston is alot more verstaile then we are though, and their centers gets a much more creative role and are very good at taking a active part in getting the puck up ice while keeping possession of it.

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06-07-2012, 11:29 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
I think the bolded part is a very dangerous attitude too. Its like we are begining to buy our own hype at times, which if nothing else was obvious when Torts sent Bickel/Emminger out as a forward when Prust went down.

Lets not talk about being perfect defensively, lets start with better than avg for example if we talk about our play against NJD in the PO's. The highlights are still up at nhl.com. Go watch them from all 6 games -- we are not talking about 2 or 3 gaffs defensively per game, more like 10-15.

There is alot of talk about how we do not want to upset chemistry and of how what we did was great and we shouldn't risk trying to upgrade players/get a few diffrent types of players onto the roster -- because of that. Like why change whats not broken.

The question I ask myself is, do we really stand to loose that much? How much do we have to thank Hanks for?

-What did our forwards produce offensively?
Hagelin 0+3. Brandon Prust 1+1. John Mitchell 0+1. Mike Rupp 0+0. Derek Stepan 1+8. And so forth.

-Okey, but did they do a good checking job? Were they good defensively? Did they win momentum for us?
To be be perfectly honest, these guys struggled alot against their peers of the 8th seed, 7th seed and 6th seed of the EC. Thats the problem.

To be fair, what these guys do bring is a attitude in the lockerroom for sure. But I wouldn't be afraid of having 1 or 2 players brought into the room of ours because of that.
I think you're looking at a very small defensive sampling, from a defense that was taxed by the time it got to the 100th some odd games of the season. You're also talking about a defense that lost 1/3 of its members for a long stretch of the season. Trust me, from a defensive standpoint, not many teams could survive that, let Alone lead the conference.

The references to the offense you used are exactly my point - we are a very limited offensive team. THAT is a bigger flaw than Torts system, which had a team that couldn't score within 2 wins of the Cup finals. Is it perfect? Not by a long shot. But when I rank this teams obstacles to winning the big one, it's really not on there.

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06-08-2012, 12:46 AM
  #82
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Some of you guys should apply for the head coaching job, seems like some of you guys know more than Torts does. The devils series could have gone either way and since we got knocked out in the conference finals we need to change our entire system. I agree some things need to be fixed/improved but some of you guys are just ridiculous. If we add another goal scorer and score on the PP then we might go past the conference finals with less game 7s. We almost got to the cup without scoring goals so imagine if we can score goals AND score on the PP. I do agree there should be less dumping and chasing unless it's absolutely necessary, i seen the Kings skate it in the zone almost every time they had the puck, they barely dump and chase.

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06-08-2012, 01:51 AM
  #83
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Offensive structure. There needs to be someone in front. Has to be. The PP is a large problem. If we score on them even 5 or 10percent more we're looking at scfs. Just. Use a PP that helps us.

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06-08-2012, 03:58 PM
  #84
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I believe we play too deep in our own zone and bunch ourselves up, to the point that the transitional play suffers when we finally take control of the puck. Clogging the lanes is one thing but letting the opossing teams skate perimeter wise without some type of pressure has caused us to play too long in our zone. IMO we should be more aggressive with the puck carrier and control the gaps better, play 5' higher on the blue and let Hank be Hank. But the bottom line is we need better offensive players in order to take our foot off of the defensive pedal. IMO if we take our foot off and cheat on offense we might score a few more goals but we will almost suredly give up the same amount and our goal differential we remain the same with this current group of players.

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06-10-2012, 12:29 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueshirt Believer View Post
I will reiterate, not all teams over rely on the stretch pass.
No kidding, you mean that of the 30 teams in the league they might actually employ different systems? That's a stretch! How many of those other systems were around in the final 4 this playoffs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueshirt Believer View Post
I said the quality teams allow the D men to skate the puck pass the hash marks and allow shorter passes to their forwards
You're right, the Rangers never do this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueshirt Believer View Post
I can't think of a single team in the NHL that over uses the stretch pass as much as the New York Rangers.
Watch more hockey.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueshirt Believer View Post
Have you seen LA's breakouts?
Yeah I guess the SC Champs stacked with offense, including a stud rookie PMD and a PMD that was nominated for the Norris at the age of 20. Yeah I supposed 29 other teams might want to be more like them, NOT just the Rangers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueshirt Believer View Post
I can't think of any that create an entire breakout system like the New York Rangers...You pick and chose the time to try stretch passes(bad line changes, poor defensive coverage). You don't force them. How many times do we have to utilize stretch pass tip ins??
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueshirt Believer View Post
Btw, I find it amusing that you seem to forget that during the dead puck era. The stretch pass was used constantly by speedier teams to beat the Neutral Zone trap. For example, Colorado did it during their cup run in 2001, and Tampa in 2004. There really isn't any more proliferation.
You mean some pretty good teams used the Stretch pass including a Torts team that won the Stanley Cup? Yeah lets stop using it. If you don't believe that it's use has become more common...watch more hockey.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueshirt Believer View Post
2)Defensive zone coverage and breakouts, though related, are not mutually inclusive. Just because we have a collapsing zone D does not mean we have to rely on stretch passes. Or are you commenting on something all together different? What we do with the puck once we have it is not synonymous to how we get it. Far too often I saw our Dmen try long passes out of our zone when they were completely un pressured in the corners. No poise, and wings not supporting the puck along the wall.
My point is that the Rangers "system" IS NOT centered around the stretch pass as you've pointed out. You're entitled to your opinion though, if you choose to myopically focus on one thing, it still doesn't make you right. And I'll leave you with that.

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06-10-2012, 01:55 PM
  #86
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biggest flaw to torts system is that we collapse way too far back and this is bad for a number of reasons. 1) Although we block a ton of shots the ones that get through to hank he doesn't see. 2) It literally eliminates any transition game and odd man rushes/breakaways. 3) good passes puck possession teams give us huge problems because they can control the puck for stretches in our zone due to zero pressure put on the points. torts needs to alter the system so we put pressure on the points which will lead to more odd man rushes and in turn goals.

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06-10-2012, 06:18 PM
  #87
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His overuse of certain players...

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06-10-2012, 06:26 PM
  #88
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We never use the middle of the ice. We always pass to wingers on the side to get the puck out of the zone.

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06-10-2012, 07:28 PM
  #89
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We never use the middle of the ice. We always pass to wingers on the side to get the puck out of the zone.
So true. To further that point, our forwards, once they have the puck, also never make any attempt whatsoever to get to the middle of the ice. We end up just shuffling the puck up and down the boards.

It's the most radical difference that I notice when I watch our team and when I watch players like Malkin and Giroux. Those guys default approach is to attack the middle of the ice and opposing teams have to actively force them to the sides. Our forwards are allergic to the area between the circles.

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06-10-2012, 08:14 PM
  #90
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So true. To further that point, our forwards, once they have the puck, also never make any attempt whatsoever to get to the middle of the ice. We end up just shuffling the puck up and down the boards.

It's the most radical difference that I notice when I watch our team and when I watch players like Malkin and Giroux. Those guys default approach is to attack the middle of the ice and opposing teams have to actively force them to the sides. Our forwards are allergic to the area between the circles.
I guess this is why its so pretty when McD skates up the ices with the puck

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06-10-2012, 08:22 PM
  #91
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Rangers were always my team since I grew up in NYC, but man watching them in the playoffs was painful. I really hate everything about Torts system and agree with pretty much all the complaints that have been brought up in this thread. It is just not fun to watch.

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06-10-2012, 08:34 PM
  #92
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I don't think there issue any real "flaw" in the "system", aside from maybe a bit more physical toll than most other systems. Aside from that, it's more the players' lack of killer instinct than anything that makes people perceive it as the "system's" flaw. They'll continue to play it safe and conservatively regardless of the score. Although, that could be Tortorella's teaching...but considering his 'safe is death" mantra, I would say it's the players. Or you could just say it's both the player's and the "system's" fault.

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06-10-2012, 08:54 PM
  #93
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There is a positive side to Tort's system that has never been mentioned.

The collapsing effort makes the entire defense look like all stars. Therefore, each Dman might be over rated in another system and the Rangers might actually receive more than the individual is worth in a trade.

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06-10-2012, 11:01 PM
  #94
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Overusing his top guys???

If they have more depth, maybe he can spread out the playing time a little more during the year.

This team also needs to learn how to win more games by 3+ goals...not easy, but with such a sick division and tough conference, every point matters...he is simply forced to play the top guys too many minutes during the regular season.

More scoring and trusted depth will help.

However, as so many of the guys he rides for big minutes are young, with a better regular season and hopefully an easier opening round, (and Staal healing) he can put them out for big minutes next year w/o them wearing down as quickly.

Injuries and bad luck are the only things that can't be foreseen.

Torts is the best coach this team has ever had since I started watching in the early 80's.

His biggest flaw? Sather and the "Ugly Midget" Dolan...

The fact that they picked up no one at the deadline except a fighter who played 2 games?-killed them. (Then look what Lou L did..) There is a disconnect between the coach and GM and that will never be fixed.

So, Tort's greatest flaw? SATHER

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06-11-2012, 03:11 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by vipernsx View Post
No kidding, you mean that of the 30 teams in the league they might actually employ different systems? That's a stretch! How many of those other systems were around in the final 4 this playoffs?


You're right, the Rangers never do this.


Watch more hockey.


Yeah I guess the SC Champs stacked with offense, including a stud rookie PMD and a PMD that was nominated for the Norris at the age of 20. Yeah I supposed 29 other teams might want to be more like them, NOT just the Rangers.




You mean some pretty good teams used the Stretch pass including a Torts team that won the Stanley Cup? Yeah lets stop using it. If you don't believe that it's use has become more common...watch more hockey.


My point is that the Rangers "system" IS NOT centered around the stretch pass as you've pointed out. You're entitled to your opinion though, if you choose to myopically focus on one thing, it still doesn't make you right. And I'll leave you with that.
And throwing around the "watch more hockey" mantra over and over again doesn't make you right either. For a guy who wrote as much as you did, you said a whole lot of nothing.

I have been watching hockey FAR more longer than you have. Unless you have been watching it past four decades, which I really doubt.

To actually address the two semi counter points you made:

1)LA is just but one example of teams allowing shorter more controlled breakouts. Devils, as well as the Yotes both employ similar breakout systems to LA. Devils control the wall out of the zone which usually goes wing to center(or the Dmen skate to the blueline and go D to Wing). They do not do many stretch passes from the corner at all.

In fact the only team I can think of that employed the stretch pass during the playoffs, only occasionally at that, was Washington. They would try to sneak a forward high in the neutral zone on Ranger line changes. Chimera did it a couple times in the series. However, mostly the caps wings carried the puck from blue line to blue line.

2)The Rangers BREAKOUT system is pretty much entirely predicated on the stretch pass. Torts could get away with it in Tampa because he had the horses to pull it off. But the Rangers forward arsenal, obviously, is not Tampa's in 04.

You also took my quote out of context. You said earlier that the stretch pass is FAR more prevalent today than it was in the past. I used those two examples to illustrate, that it was a common tactic even in the dead puck era. The point is that it hasn't really proliferated any more than before. Teams have accordingly adjusted, their D men play closer to their blue line instead of the redline. Breakaways are still fairly rare.

Because enemy Dmen have to play further back though, it allows more room for the Dmen, on the offensive side of the puck, to move the puck closer to their blue line(since enemy defenders can't stack the red line as well as in the dead puck era). Its something that Torts never adjusted to when he was in Tampa in post lockout(and it has spilled over to his time with the Rangers). Pre lockout, speedier wings tried to straddle the red line in hopes that the Dmen(who usually covered at the red line) might get caught flat footed.

Btw, the overuse of the stretch pass is not the only problem with our team. But I feel it is the most glaring. Some people will say other elements of Torts system are more faulty or less, and that is their opinion. I have my own. It also doesn't mean Torts gets everything wrong or that he is a terrible coach(although he tests my patience at times).

Btw, if you are not going to talk systems, use examples, or have an intelligent conversation. Then don't bother posting a response.

I'm willing to listen to opposing opinions, and respect them. But if you are going to be condescending, and will not elaborate on what you are saying. Then it seems you have nothing to say, and we are wasting each others time.


Last edited by Blueshirt Believer: 06-11-2012 at 03:34 AM.
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06-11-2012, 04:11 AM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge View Post
I think you're looking at a very small defensive sampling, from a defense that was taxed by the time it got to the 100th some odd games of the season. You're also talking about a defense that lost 1/3 of its members for a long stretch of the season. Trust me, from a defensive standpoint, not many teams could survive that, let Alone lead the conference.

The references to the offense you used are exactly my point - we are a very limited offensive team. THAT is a bigger flaw than Torts system, which had a team that couldn't score within 2 wins of the Cup finals. Is it perfect? Not by a long shot. But when I rank this teams obstacles to winning the big one, it's really not on there.
I was talking about the forwards, not the blueline.

Were we limited offensively? Yes. But, in the PO's, our forwards did not manage to win much momentum for us. Arguebly, our 3rd and 4th struggled mightly against Ottawa's and NJD's 3rd and 4th. The 8th and 6th seed.

Maybe I misunderstood you, but the perspective that this troubles me in, is when someone suggest that we add a player with offensive skill and someone replys that we should be careful with that because we can't afford to have a forward on the lineup that makes misstakes. Isn't perfect defensively. Fails to win momentum for his team on the ice.

I think, or I think, its a fact, truth to be told, thats exactly what we got for long stretches during the PO's from our 2nd to 4th line. Little or no momentum won. Misstakes. And so forth. We lived on Hank quite frankly (we all agree on that).

I do think our lineup is special. Because of their attitude. And ability to show up every night. If you think it will hurt to lockerroom, that Callahan or Richards or Girardi or Staal or Hank and co won't be able to maintain the attitude we have if we upgrade one player -- then we should be worried. But I do not at all buy any argument that we stand to loose much on the ice buy say playing Fedetenko or Prust or Boyle or Rupp less and playing a skilled player more.

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06-11-2012, 04:17 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Blueshirt Believer View Post
1)LA is just but one example of teams allowing shorter more controlled breakouts. Devils, as well as the Yotes both employ similar breakout systems to LA. Devils control the wall out of the zone which usually goes wing to center(or the Dmen skate to the blueline and go D to Wing). They do not do many stretch passes from the corner at all.

In fact the only team I can think of that employed the stretch pass during the playoffs, only occasionally at that, was Washington. They would try to sneak a forward high in the neutral zone on Ranger line changes. Chimera did it a couple times in the series. However, mostly the caps wings carried the puck from blue line to blue line.
No matter how defensive, strict, non-creative NJD have been over the years, they have always passed the puck well out of their own well.

They have never played like "Calgary" of 04' hockey were they just lift the puck out to avoid misstakes.

Even players like Daneyko and Colin White have always been pushed into either making a simple pass to a winger going deep along boards or to a center curving in the defensive zone. Detroit have always been covered for their ability to play this way under pressure. And they of course do it with flair. But NJD have quitly always been up there in the top 5 of all teams in this cathegory. Simple metodical passes. Yes. But they never give the puck away unless they have to. And this is something many many many teams fails to do.

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