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Toughness Debate Thread: Laraque making a come back?

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Old
06-10-2012, 09:38 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Surprised you like the habs at all. Seem to be way different than your vision of hockey.
You aren't aware that the Habs always had an enforcer (NO GOONS) on their teams. The Gauthier/Martin pair is the first one since John Ferguson that didn't carry at least one.

Carbonneau had George Laraque and Aaron Downey, and a bunch of willing guys like Bouillon, Souray, Garth Murray, Stewart, Chipchura, Kostopoulos always willing to take a beating also.

Claude Julien had Langdon, Dwyer, Blouin, Quintal, Bouillon, Souray, McKay, Rivet...

Michel Therrien had some Odjick, Dwyer, Blouin, Souray, Asham, Simpson, Bouillon...

Vigneault had Odjick, Stevenson, and a good bunch of guys...

You have habsolutly no problem seeing your team take a beating. I AM suprised you like the Habs at all.

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06-10-2012, 09:42 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Travis Moen View Post
I think we should sign him just to make this joke of an organization complete.
I'd rather sign some sure products like Parros, Carkner, Hordichuk or trade for some Engelland, Erskine...

Maybe we're gonna get some Boulton or Westgarth on waivers at the beginning of the next season also.

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06-10-2012, 10:17 PM
  #103
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It doesn't get better than the 95-96 team IMO. Brashear and Odelein were willing to go almost every game and nobody was messed with like what we've been seeing the last 3 years.

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06-10-2012, 10:22 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Maxpac View Post
It doesn't get better than the 95-96 team IMO. Brashear and Odelein were willing to go almost every game and nobody was messed with like what we've been seeing the last 3 years.
Lyle Odelein. Tough, solid, and hard-nosed defenseman, didn't win much, but always willing to hold his own gainst the biggest heavyweights.

We could replace him today by some Deryk Engelland or John Erskine.

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06-10-2012, 10:23 PM
  #105
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Well,

there is new management now... so...

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06-10-2012, 10:30 PM
  #106
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or @ some of you *actually* willing to give him a no-risk chance.

WHY?

Thanks but no thanks, Georges.

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06-10-2012, 10:40 PM
  #107
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Why not just getting another enforcer that isn't Georges Laraque with that contract and cap hit.

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06-10-2012, 10:42 PM
  #108
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So he wants to get a 500 000$ salary by playing 3-5 minutes a game, 40-50 games a season? Smart guy.

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06-10-2012, 10:49 PM
  #109
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I would give a chance to McGrattan instead.

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06-10-2012, 10:49 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsead View Post
Why not just getting another enforcer that isn't Georges Laraque with that contract and cap hit.
Enforcers, depending how asked they are, earn between 700 000$ (Eric Boultons) and 1,5 millions (Shawn Thornton, prime-time Georges Laraque...)

If you just offer them 500 000$, they'll just take that 800 000$ they're offered in the KHL.

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06-10-2012, 10:51 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by 68 View Post
I would give a chance to McGrattan instead.
Oh! Yes! Oh, would I!

We could easily he is a no-skill enforcer... truth is... he doesn't have much skills, but he has more than you could think. He posted some good numbers in the AHL and in the juniors. Generic enforcers always play on the 4th line, wherever they play, but McGrattan could play higher in the AHL.

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06-10-2012, 11:00 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Born in 1909 View Post
Well,

there is new management now... so...
But Bergevin said on Tout le monde en parle: "The era of goons is over, now you must bring something else, not just fights".

Since enforcers are seen in Montreal like goons that can't skate (like in the movie: Goon) and play at all, I'm guessing that means no Parros/Hordichuk/Carkner/etc.

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06-10-2012, 11:47 PM
  #113
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Would rather have gritty players, Dustin Brown types than some enforcers.


Let's put it this way. When your team can't score, picking fights isn't your first problem.

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06-11-2012, 12:04 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Aurel Joliat View Post
Habs always had goons, except in the Martin-Gauthier era. Carbonneau had Laraque (even if he did not like him), Julien had Langdon, Therrien had Odjick and we can continue the list

With the new management we're gonna be much tougher
Laraque was the last straw on tough 'enforcers' in montreal. What a joke he was.

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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
I would say the job of goons is dying because the bottom line is they don't help teams win hockey games. If they ever did in the past, they don't anymore. There is just no benefit that they provide, other than entertainment value for the fans.
Agreed. They do very little.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnforcerWeNeed View Post
You aren't aware that the Habs always had an enforcer (NO GOONS) on their teams. The Gauthier/Martin pair is the first one since John Ferguson that didn't carry at least one.

Carbonneau had George Laraque and Aaron Downey, and a bunch of willing guys like Bouillon, Souray, Garth Murray, Stewart, Chipchura, Kostopoulos always willing to take a beating also.

Claude Julien had Langdon, Dwyer, Blouin, Quintal, Bouillon, Souray, McKay, Rivet...

Michel Therrien had some Odjick, Dwyer, Blouin, Souray, Asham, Simpson, Bouillon...

Vigneault had Odjick, Stevenson, and a good bunch of guys...

You have habsolutly no problem seeing your team take a beating. I AM suprised you like the Habs at all.
IMO an enforcer is a goon. That's just my terminology for it. I don't consider a guy who fights a goon. I do consider a guy who's role is to fight a goon. No one will change my mind there. We likely have different definitions.

Laraque and Downey weren't imposing on anyone IMO. I don't miss either. You mentioned several other guys. I don't dislike them. In fact, I recently made a thread asking would you rather have TK or Darche as the 12th-13th guy. The fact is, those guys aren't goons. White is not a goon, moen is not a goon. They aren't enforcers either. They are checking line or energy players. I want a strong checking line, I really do. I'm not obsessed over toughness like other people are.

A lot of guys you mentioned are recycled. Guys like souray weren't around for their toughness. He had a massive slapshot and ALSO provided toughness, not the other way around.

I prioritize it differently than you. I really don't care as much as others. I really never saw the point of an enforcer. I didn't play hockey at a high level but did play hockey in leagues. We didn't fight. I suppose I played some fake hockey all my life? Nah. I'd take Prust, Asham, Carkner, etc... on my team because they can play a role besides fighting. PK for example.

See, here's the difference. A guy like konopka had 7:50 ice time per game last season. Neil had 12:47 per game. Neil is tougher, stronger and a better fighter but Konopka is actually the goon in my eyes. He fights and hugs people in the fight and apart from a few skills, Neil is actually the superior player. This is even better no? I like the tougher guy.

So i don't dislike toughness, I just dislike forcing an issue with a cheap player in the lineup. For me, it's akin to having someone who can't do anything besides take a faceoff and we sign him for faceoffs. It would be stupid.

Besides, don't fool yourself. You need toughness in the top 6/9 not on the 4th line. Guys like lucic, backes, clowe etc.. are at a premium for a reason.

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06-11-2012, 12:14 AM
  #115
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Speaking of goons, I read Laraque wants to make a comeback!

http://www.985sports.ca/hockey/nouve...ur-150481.html


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06-11-2012, 12:29 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by RaMMuT View Post
Speaking of goons, I read Laraque wants to make a comeback!

http://www.985sports.ca/hockey/nouve...ur-150481.html

You don't say. Sounds threadworthy to me.

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06-11-2012, 12:30 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
IMO an enforcer is a goon. That's just my terminology for it. I don't consider a guy who fights a goon. I do consider a guy who's role is to fight a goon. No one will change my mind there. We likely have different definitions.

Laraque and Downey weren't imposing on anyone IMO. I don't miss either. You mentioned several other guys. I don't dislike them. In fact, I recently made a thread asking would you rather have TK or Darche as the 12th-13th guy. The fact is, those guys aren't goons. White is not a goon, moen is not a goon. They aren't enforcers either. They are checking line or energy players. I want a strong checking line, I really do. I'm not obsessed over toughness like other people are.

A lot of guys you mentioned are recycled. Guys like souray weren't around for their toughness. He had a massive slapshot and ALSO provided toughness, not the other way around.

I prioritize it differently than you. I really don't care as much as others. I really never saw the point of an enforcer. I didn't play hockey at a high level but did play hockey in leagues. We didn't fight. I suppose I played some fake hockey all my life? Nah. I'd take Prust, Asham, Carkner, etc... on my team because they can play a role besides fighting. PK for example.

See, here's the difference. A guy like konopka had 7:50 ice time per game last season. Neil had 12:47 per game. Neil is tougher, stronger and a better fighter but Konopka is actually the goon in my eyes. He fights and hugs people in the fight and apart from a few skills, Neil is actually the superior player. This is even better no? I like the tougher guy.

So i don't dislike toughness, I just dislike forcing an issue with a cheap player in the lineup. For me, it's akin to having someone who can't do anything besides take a faceoff and we sign him for faceoffs. It would be stupid.

Besides, don't fool yourself. You need toughness in the top 6/9 not on the 4th line. Guys like lucic, backes, clowe etc.. are at a premium for a reason.
The goon, like Steve MacIntyre, Derek Boogaard, doesn't play hockey. He'll most likely get a lucky assist during the whole season.
The enforcer, like Gino Odjick, Shawn Thornton or Matt Carkner, does play hockey. He'll give you 4-7 goals a year, will follow the game without hurting your team. The enforcer plays like Mike Blunden but can actually fight.
This is the main difference.

Who is TK? Tom Kostopoulos? Because he isn't even a middleweight fighter. Actually, he's just a punchingbag. I like his heart and everything but he's a punchingbag. I'd rather have a punching bag than Mathieu Darche on the 4th line, but I'd rather have some Shawn Thornton on the 4th line instead of Tom Kostopoulos.

Zenon Konopka is no goon at all. At all. Middleweight fighter, fights often, but not a goon at all. Not even an enforcer. He's a faceoff specialist that can hug 20 times a year. Oh, I'd like him instead of Ryan White, but I'm ok with Ryan White too. He's gritty. He's energic, I kind of like him too.

Chris Neil is much more of an enforcer than Zenon Konopka. In fact, Neiler is a heavyweight, probably in the top 15 most feared fighters in the league during the whole last decade. Maybe cracked the top 10 this season with Belak and Boogaard dead and Godard, MacIntyre and Orr in the AHL. Chris Neil can throw the mitts with the Tie Domis of this world, not Konopka. Konopka is no heavyweight at all and the enforcer must be a heavyweight.

I like to see that you would take Carkner, though. He is one of the biggest heavyweights in the league right now. Maybe tied in 3rd with Thornton, behind Brian McGrattan and Matt Kassian.

I'd take him on my team anyday of the week. If you don't like to give the guy 15 minutes as a 6th defenseman, play him on the 4th line for 8 minutes, he skates well enough and has a good enough shot to be more valuable than Palushaj/Engqvist/Blunden/and all these soft plugs we had.

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06-11-2012, 12:47 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by EnforcerWeNeed View Post
The goon, like Steve MacIntyre, Derek Boogaard, doesn't play hockey. He'll most likely get a lucky assist during the whole season.
The enforcer, like Gino Odjick, Shawn Thornton or Matt Carkner, does play hockey. He'll give you 4-7 goals a year, will follow the game without hurting your team. The enforcer plays like Mike Blunden but can actually fight.
This is the main difference.

Who is TK? Tom Kostopoulos? Because he isn't even a middleweight fighter. Actually, he's just a punchingbag. I like his heart and everything but he's a punchingbag. I'd rather have a punching bag than Mathieu Darche on the 4th line, but I'd rather have some Shawn Thornton on the 4th line instead of Tom Kostopoulos.

Zenon Konopka is no goon at all. At all. Middleweight fighter, fights often, but not a goon at all. Not even an enforcer. He's a faceoff specialist that can hug 20 times a year. Oh, I'd like him instead of Ryan White, but I'm ok with Ryan White too. He's gritty. He's energic, I kind of like him too.

Chris Neil is much more of an enforcer than Zenon Konopka. In fact, Neiler is a heavyweight, probably in the top 15 most feared fighters in the league during the whole last decade. Maybe cracked the top 10 this season with Belak and Boogaard dead and Godard, MacIntyre and Orr in the AHL. Chris Neil can throw the mitts with the Tie Domis of this world, not Konopka. Konopka is no heavyweight at all and the enforcer must be a heavyweight.

I like to see that you would take Carkner, though. He is one of the biggest heavyweights in the league right now. Maybe tied in 3rd with Thornton, behind Brian McGrattan and Matt Kassian.

I'd take him on my team anyday of the week. If you don't like to give the guy 15 minutes as a 6th defenseman, play him on the 4th line for 8 minutes, he skates well enough and has a good enough shot to be more valuable than Palushaj/Engqvist/Blunden/and all these soft plugs we had.
Again, I think you have to realize our definitions are different. If a guy is tough but can play, perfect. I just dislike guys who aren't useful but can fight. The fact Carkner is a 6-7th d-man who physicality is the reason I'd want. The fact he's a heavyweight who doesn't send faxes is a bonus. So just because Neil is tougher than Konopka and all that doesn't make him more of a goon to me. I consider a guy who's role is to fight and maybe provide a random skill like 'faceoff specialist' a goon/enforcer. I Neil had 28 points and played minimal minutes. I mean, he could play. I consider Neil is a tough player. I consider clowe and Lucic tough players, not enforcers or goons, despite having good fighting skill.

yes, TK is Tom. I loved the guy. Problem is we had little support then. I would gladly take TK, Moen, White, Prust/Gaustad right now. That's a bunch of middleweights who can contribute.

So again, it's not a matter of toughness. it's a matter of the team. I easily take a guy like clutterbuck who isn't big or much of a fighter over a guy like Parros. I take lapierre over Konopka. That's just the way it is for me. That being said, I also take Lucic over Gionta or whatever. Clowe over bourque.

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06-11-2012, 12:52 AM
  #119
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Originally Posted by EnforcerWeNeed View Post
Enforcers, depending how asked they are, earn between 700 000$ (Eric Boultons) and 1,5 millions (Shawn Thornton, prime-time Georges Laraque...)

If you just offer them 500 000$, they'll just take that 800 000$ they're offered in the KHL.
Thing is, Laraque isn't good. Shawn Thornton looks like gretzky compared to him. Georges couldn't kill penalties, play 5 on 5, play PP and the worst part? he refused to fight. I think you consider him useful because he CAN fight. We consider him useless because he refused to fight. Even in Kovalev's infamous "1 game in 4 nights" that was 1 game in 4 nights more than laraque ever showed up. He fought battles no one cared about just to make an appearance. He had very few fights that were of interest to most fans.

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06-11-2012, 02:01 AM
  #120
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It never stops!

We could use a doorman for the locker room in Montreal
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06-11-2012, 02:20 AM
  #121
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Thing is, Laraque isn't good. Shawn Thornton looks like gretzky compared to him. Georges couldn't kill penalties, play 5 on 5, play PP and the worst part? he refused to fight. I think you consider him useful because he CAN fight. We consider him useless because he refused to fight. Even in Kovalev's infamous "1 game in 4 nights" that was 1 game in 4 nights more than laraque ever showed up. He fought battles no one cared about just to make an appearance. He had very few fights that were of interest to most fans.
Shawn Thornton diesn't kill penalties, doesn't play on the powerplay either. Georges Laraque has had 14 fights in 62 games with the Canadiens. I think we can consider 62 games being a complete season for an enforcer. If he had played in the 2011-2012 NHL for the whole season, that'd make him tied at the 10th position with Tim Jackman who has had 14 fights this season.

The problem with Georges is that he didn't have that meanstreak. He didn't have enough of that hatred that we have for the Bruins, Zdeno Chara and Milan Lucic first. Instead of just goading Lucic, he should've punched him in the face, oblige him to shed the mitts and to take a beating. If Lucic doesn't want, make sure you start a line-brawl, I don't know, you're Georges f**king Laraque, do something.

But he didn't have that meanstreak. That's too bad. He's no Donald Brashear. He's no Gino Odjick, who could go against anyone, anytime, enforcers, top-line players, he didn't care, he was just awesome the way he was getting his team fired up. That's why I hope Georges Laraque the best to come back into the NHl, but away from Montreal. He should play in a low-level market where people don't care about rivalries - they just want to see a good staged fght at the face-off.

Canadiens fans, including myself, want of an enforcer with a meanstreak. Like Matt Carkner enforcing like a badass over Brian Boyle who tried to hurt Karlsson the night before.

Boyle played the rest of the series with the tail between the leg.

That's what I want to see when we play the Bruins. I want some guy who's gonna go, with such violence, on their enforcer, on Lucic, on Chara, or anyone else.

Hey, I want to do the same than they did to us: send on the ice a line-up of fighters against their line-up of non-fighters and start a f**king brawl that we are still going to talk about in two years from now. Too bad for the broken hearts, but I thought that this, well that was awesome:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLIDCLKfTq8

The game before, Anderson speared Pavel Bure in the eye (Gino's best friend) and hurt him. The game after, he paid the price.

Hire an enforcer that'll take over the Bruins, helped with some Moens and Whites, instead of letting our wimps getting beaten up by THEIR players.

And don't forget to put the puck behind the goalie. But to do so, we must reinject some pride into that logo.

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06-11-2012, 03:13 AM
  #122
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Originally Posted by EnforcerWeNeed View Post
I don't know why, but the Canadiens fans are pretty much the only ones who whine about enforcers. You would never, never, never see that kind of sissiness on Bruins or Flyers forum. Never.
Flyers fans spent much of last season whining about Jody Shelley. I understand that 'never' may be a relative term for you here given that you only signed up to the forum like two days ago...


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I hope Thornton, Lucic and Chara continue to punk our small players.
After you signed up two days ago, are you sure you headed to the right forum?

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06-11-2012, 05:24 AM
  #123
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goons = players who's only definable skills is bashing skulls

although, they're so lovable, yeah, im talking to you staubitz, i don't want those guys anywhere near my team.

bring me the likes of thornton, neil, and then we'll talk

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06-11-2012, 06:15 AM
  #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EnforcerWeNeed View Post
You aren't aware that the Habs always had an enforcer (NO GOONS) on their teams. The Gauthier/Martin pair is the first one since John Ferguson that didn't carry at least one.

Carbonneau had George Laraque and Aaron Downey, and a bunch of willing guys like Bouillon, Souray, Garth Murray, Stewart, Chipchura, Kostopoulos always willing to take a beating also.

Claude Julien had Langdon, Dwyer, Blouin, Quintal, Bouillon, Souray, McKay, Rivet...

Michel Therrien had some Odjick, Dwyer, Blouin, Souray, Asham, Simpson, Bouillon...

Vigneault had Odjick, Stevenson, and a good bunch of guys...

You have habsolutly no problem seeing your team take a beating. I AM suprised you like the Habs at all.
It was nice to see those teams be able to stand up for themselves but one little problem... How many cups did the team win with those teams, combined? It takes more than just an enforcer or two to win hockey games. The Habs top 6 currently at this moment will not win games offensively. The inexperienced defense still need to grow. If you put an enforcer or two on this team right now and change nothing else, what will it solve? Perhaps a scrap here and there to get a moral victory? Sorry, give me a couple of guys for the bottom 6 that can playing a strong, physical game with hockey skills over an enforcer any day.

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You don't say. Sounds threadworthy to me.
Sounds like a great idea. He should totally make a new thread.

overlords

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06-11-2012, 06:40 AM
  #125
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Originally Posted by CrimsonSkorpion View Post
It was nice to see those teams be able to stand up for themselves but one little problem... How many cups did the team win with those teams, combined? It takes more than just an enforcer or two to win hockey games. The Habs top 6 currently at this moment will not win games offensively. The inexperienced defense still need to grow. If you put an enforcer or two on this team right now and change nothing else, what will it solve? Perhaps a scrap here and there to get a moral victory? Sorry, give me a couple of guys for the bottom 6 that can playing a strong, physical game with hockey skills over an enforcer any day.
No kidding. I think some are getting into the notion we must be like boston or something. A tradition of icing goons and gooning it up last minutes for moral victories that got them 1 cup win in over 40 years.

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