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JVR Surgery Discussion (update post #356: No hip surgery for JVR, Holmgren confirms)

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Old
06-11-2012, 06:25 AM
  #76
JVR21
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We could sign Parise without giving up a damn thing for the same money as Nash. Then we could trade JVR and whatever else for a #1 defenseman. That's too logical I guess. Please, Jesus, do not let Homer trade for Nash.

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06-11-2012, 06:30 AM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
JVR PPG pace this season (while hurt/best season): 46
Nash PPG pace this season: 59
Nash PPG pace best season: 83

JVR production per cap hit (assuming it stagnates at hurt levels): 10.82
Nash production per cap hit: 07.56
Nash best production per cap hit: 10.64


DO. NOT. WANT. NASH. AT. 7.8M/YEAR.

It's STUPID to trade JVR for Nash. End of discussion.
Nash plays for CBJ, though. It has to be considered. On G's line, he would score a lot more.

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06-11-2012, 06:32 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by PALE PWNR View Post
This this this. I'd rather give Nash 7.8 then give Suter 7.8! Who knows what Suter does without Weber, we already know what Nash does by himself why not see what he can do with Giroux! **** yea I'm excited I'd be the first one to have a #61 jersey. Re-sign Carle, JvR+picks prospects for Nash, and worry about upgrading D next year when close to 15 million is coming off the books. If reports are true 3 million 1 yr deal for Jagr, then Hartnell 4.2, Shelley 1.1, Timonen 6.3, Lilja .7, Jagr 3 = 15.3 mil.

We are going from 4.25 to 7.8 with JvR to Nash. Are you telling me Nash isn't worth 3.5 million more then JvR? He's exactly what we want JvR to be! People already think we most likely are going into next year with the same exact defense, with the cap going up by how much it is what it the issue with upgrading from JvR to Nash? People were impressed by an 8 game series JvR showed in the playoffs 2 years ago, well Nash does that almost every game by himself give him some people to play with and not just anyone give him Giroux to play with and see what happens.
Completely agree with this post...

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06-11-2012, 06:51 AM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JVR21 View Post
We could sign Parise without giving up a damn thing for the same money as Nash. Then we could trade JVR and whatever else for a #1 defenseman. That's too logical I guess. Please, Jesus, do not let Homer trade for Nash.
This is not NHL12. We can't sign Parise just like that. He has to want to come here and other teams have to offer him less. I don't know how I feel about trading for Nash. That is a wait and see kind of thing in my book. He looks overpaid in CBJ, but if he comes here and scores 100 with Giroux, I don't think anyone will be complaining. I certainly wouldn't abstain from making a move just because there is a UFA that we like that we might possibly maybe be able to get a chance to offer him a contract that he might possibly maybe consider thinking about.

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06-11-2012, 07:07 AM
  #80
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Homer has many faults, but the one thing no one can deny is he is a great talent evaluater of the forward position. If the Flyers make a trade for Nash you can be 100% sure Homer wasn't simply looking at a stat sheet seeing the Rick Nash only scored 60 some points last year. He watches and evaluates hockey players, not scoresheets.

Last summer he saw Wayne Simmonds on the Kings, saw he had much more scoring ability and talent than the score sheet indicated, traded for him, and look at his socring output increase last year.

Max Talbot (who got blasted on this board when he was signed for 5 years at a cap hit of 1.8), almost scored 20 goals last year.

Couturier, who teams were passing on left and right and was falling in the draft, and with the Flyers obviously needing young defensive help (Siemins and Hamilton were still on the board) was picked by Homer, and he is looking like an absolute stud forward and a steal at that #8 slot.

Homer has many faults, and I'm not excusing him for them, but the one argument you cannot make in this situation is that Rick Nash would not thrive in Philadelphia if we traded for him. Homer can see and evaluate the forward position, and I absolutely trust him if he thinks that Nash's production would see a sizeable increase playing in Philadelphia.

If Homer wants to deal JvR as part of a package for Nash you can be sure of a few things:
1) Homer believes JvR will never reach his potential
2) Homer believes Nash will help the team much more than JvR will help the Flyers
3) Homer would rather have Nash at 7.8 than JvR at 4.25

Homer knows his forwards, and if he believes those things to be true, than I will trust him if he trades for Nash.


Last edited by Schenn10: 06-11-2012 at 07:23 AM.
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Old
06-11-2012, 07:12 AM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
JVR PPG pace this season (while hurt/best season): 46
Nash PPG pace this season: 59
Nash PPG pace best season: 83

JVR production per cap hit (assuming it stagnates at hurt levels): 10.82
Nash production per cap hit: 07.56
Nash best production per cap hit: 10.64


DO. NOT. WANT. NASH. AT. 7.8M/YEAR.

It's STUPID to trade JVR for Nash. End of discussion.
Wayne Simmonds production per cap hit: 28.00
Claude Giroux production per cap hit: 24.80
Scott Hartnell production per cap hit: 15.95

Wayne Simmonds is more valuable than Giroux or Hartnell?

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Old
06-11-2012, 07:53 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by PALE PWNR View Post
Again who are you replacing Timonen and Pronger with this season?
^^^This, this, and this, way more important than adding another forward on one of the deepest forward groups in the NHL, I like JVR and what he could potentially become, and yes the team gets better with Nash coming here, but the Flyers need to replace Pronger and Timonen ASAP and should be the main focus of the team until it gets done

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06-11-2012, 08:03 AM
  #83
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I can't see that Howson would deal Nash for only JvR. There would be significant other pieces going to Columbus, and I'm thinking that the Flyers' 1st round pick would be included. As much as I think Nash with Giroux would be magical, I don't think that the overall team would be served by losing what it would take to bring Nash to Philadelphia, and taking on his cap hit for the next several years.

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Old
06-11-2012, 08:08 AM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood Couturier View Post
Eskin has claimed things would happen in the past and they did not. Just because he said something about Richards and Carter last year doesn't mean that he's right 100% of the time.

I'm tired of people in this city trying to run JVR out of town.
Eskin just throws a lot of crap on the wall and hope some of it sticks. We do not need Nash!! This team needs help on the back line.

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06-11-2012, 08:11 AM
  #85
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Maybe it's a larger trade for the 2nd pick also. There are many rumors that the Flyers are looking to move up. I don't know what the package would be, but adding Nash and Ryan Murray would be very nice. As long as they don't give up Couturier.

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06-11-2012, 08:15 AM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuclear reactor View Post
7.8 isn't that bad for an elite first line talent who could score 40-50 goals with Giroux. Hartnell had 37 this year with Giroux.
If Hartnell is getting 37, why do I want to pay someone $7.8 million so they can get ~45. **** that. Nash is great, but **** that.


This is not how you build perennial contender, trading away young guys for 7.8 million dollar players who've never produced near that pay rate. We just traded away two players with huge deals who likely had their peak productivity behind them...


I seriously hope they just let JVR get healthy and play with G next year.

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Old
06-11-2012, 08:15 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Psuhockey View Post
Maybe it's a larger trade for the 2nd pick also. There are many rumors that the Flyers are looking to move up. I don't know what the package would be, but adding Nash and Ryan Murray would be very nice. As long as they don't give up Couturier.
Probably JVR, Schenn, BOB, Mez, and the 20th overall...

In other words, way more than would be worth it, IMO.

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06-11-2012, 08:19 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
I really couldn't care less about contracts. There is nothing we can do about them as fans. The Cap is rising dramatically, and 7.8 won't seem as terrible. Still overpaid? Absolutely, never said otherwise. I'm arguing against the clowns who say he's overrated and is nothing better than a 65 pt player, which is preposterous.
I'm a little late to this party but oh well...

Firstly, I applaud you on the proper use of "couldn't care less".

Secondly, I never understood the sentiment displayed in bold. Contracts directly affect the product/team that is put on the ice. If fans want to personally, ignore them, so be it; but that doesn't mean they aren't incredibly important.


Last edited by DUHockey9: 06-11-2012 at 08:26 AM.
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Old
06-11-2012, 08:46 AM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
Wayne Simmonds production per cap hit: 28.00
Claude Giroux production per cap hit: 24.80
Scott Hartnell production per cap hit: 15.95

Wayne Simmonds is more valuable than Giroux or Hartnell?
1. It is within reason. I explained it doesn't work in extremes.
2. It is based on two post-ELC players projected to make similar production in the upcoming seasons.
3. Hartnell had a career year.

As always, context is as important to the conversation as it ever was. People who want to be stupid are just going to be stupid about it though.

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Old
06-11-2012, 08:56 AM
  #90
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Nash's talent level is being SEVERELY under rated around here and it's starting to irk me. Playing with G, Nash can be a 50 goal scorer. He's defensively responsible, he's huge, he's physical. He's everything we HOPE Jvr can be. 7.8 is steep and I'm not nessecarily saying we should trade for him, considering we have areas we need to sure up instead, but man, Nash is becoming a pile of crap to some people on here. He's essentially had to create every point he has to his name by himself in colombus. With a center like giroux, he could be rocket Richard winner.

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06-11-2012, 09:03 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
Nash's talent level is being SEVERELY under rated around here and it's starting to irk me. Playing with G, Nash can be a 50 goal scorer. He's defensively responsible, he's huge, he's physical. He's everything we HOPE Jvr can be. 7.8 is steep and I'm not nessecarily saying we should trade for him, considering we have areas we need to sure up instead, but man, Nash is becoming a pile of crap to some people on here. He's essentially had to create every point he has to his name by himself in colombus. With a center like giroux, he could be rocket Richard winner.
A lot of people explained that Nash is not exactly getting any younger, and he will also be getting less minutes in Philadelphia compared to getting the meaty minutes in Columbus.

Yes, Nash is the player we all want JVR to be, but at some point we cannot just consider the salary cap cost when Nash will cost assets as well. On top of that, going after Parise is a very similar situation (cap wise) without costing us significant assets.

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06-11-2012, 09:12 AM
  #92
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While I admire the Flyers always trying to acquire the best talent available, for once in my fandom I would really like them to let the pieces thy already have grow and play together for more than one season. We have a pretty good nucleus of young talent, add a little better defense this summer and roll with what we have for once. Is that such a pipe dream?? In our world I guess it is.

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06-11-2012, 09:22 AM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
A lot of people explained that Nash is not exactly getting any younger, and he will also be getting less minutes in Philadelphia compared to getting the meaty minutes in Columbus.

Yes, Nash is the player we all want JVR to be, but at some point we cannot just consider the salary cap cost when Nash will cost assets as well. On top of that, going after Parise is a very similar situation (cap wise) without costing us significant assets.
That's true about Parise though, except for the fact that they're completely different players. And IMO Nash > Parise in terms of talent. And I have a HUGE soft spot for American players. Completely disregarding money, if i have a choice between Parise and Nash, I pick Nash. Especially to compliment the pieces we already have.

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06-11-2012, 09:28 AM
  #94
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Meltzer pretty much laughing this off....

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?p...qgvYLE.twitter

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Old
06-11-2012, 09:31 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
Probably JVR, Schenn, BOB, Mez, and the 20th overall...

In other words, way more than would be worth it, IMO.
That's silly. You could get the number 2 pick for less than what you listed.

JVR, Bob, 1st is close in and of itself. We probably need to add a bit more, but not Schenn AND Mez more.

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Old
06-11-2012, 09:31 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by healthyscratch View Post
Meltzer pretty much laughing this off....

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?p...qgvYLE.twitter
Love Bill, but if Im not mistaken, he laughed off the Richards and Carter thing also. People hate Eskin (for some right and wrong reasons) but those who dont say he has inside sources are fooling themselves. That being said, I dont think Nash is necessary on this team (you know, the team that had one of the top offenses last season).

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Old
06-11-2012, 09:32 AM
  #97
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While getting Nash seems counterintuitive given our defensive needs....there might be a plan brewing that still nets us a D man and Nash with considerable assets going the other way. It may involve another team as well..who knows.

Nash would def flourish with G and he would add more size to this team which is needed considering how NJ pushed us around. Also, it just seems Lavy is not going to really alter his style and thus the Flyers doubling down on the offense seems in the cards.

The Flyers do need another pure goal scorer and although JVR has the potential..that is all it is. I like JVR but dude is way softer than Nash. Nash is a prototypical Flyers...guy would easily get 40 goals here. Hate the cap hit but yeah 3 extra million above JVR is not so bad..it just limits the Flyers with D signings but maybe they really don't feel they can get either Suter or Weber and have a plan B and Nash is part of it with maybe a couple of lower priced D.....which could include a draft pick D man if they move up in the draft as is being rumored.

Should be another interesting offseason...

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06-11-2012, 09:34 AM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
1. It is within reason. I explained it doesn't work in extremes.
2. It is based on two post-ELC players projected to make similar production in the upcoming seasons.
3. Hartnell had a career year.

As always, context is as important to the conversation as it ever was. People who want to be stupid are just going to be stupid about it though.
You don't put Nash v. JvR into context though. What you really need to do is to see opposition strength, linemates, systems. Instead, you throw relatively useless numbers out to support your theory and then throw disclaimers on them.

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06-11-2012, 09:34 AM
  #99
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Some insight...

Quote:
Dustin Leed via twitter: Leed’s sources have always said the Flyers have liked Nash, but a trade is unlikely. Same sources have said adding a defenseman is their top priority and that they would go after an “impact D” first and maybe moving up in the draft.

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06-11-2012, 09:38 AM
  #100
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I could see a package around JVR for the 2nd Overall. That makes sense to some degree.

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