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06-11-2012, 12:17 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
All angles have to be examined, Burke once did draft Russians when he was with Vancouver early on, but he abandoned that strategy in 03, and hasn't been back there since in 8 subsequent drafts. None of these Russian players ever played a NHL game. Perhaps this is why he is reluctant to draft them now...
Russian players have a history of not working out in the NHL which has nothing to do with Burke.

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06-11-2012, 12:18 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
All angles have to be examined, Burke once did draft Russians when he was with Vancouver early on, but he abandoned that strategy in 03, and hasn't been back there since in 8 subsequent drafts. None of these Russian players ever played a NHL game. Perhaps this is why he is reluctant to draft them now...
And how many of them were consensus top 5 picks who have stated their intent to play in the NHL??

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06-11-2012, 12:22 PM
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Don't say anything about Datsyuk now. BUT. You really shouldn't draft Russians late in the draft or the one's who're seen as future bottom liners. Those Russians who can't be top line players in the NHL rather stay in the KHL nowadays. That's just the way it goes.

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06-11-2012, 12:25 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
All angles have to be examined, Burke once did draft Russians when he was with Vancouver early on, but he abandoned that strategy in 03, and hasn't been back there since in 8 subsequent drafts. None of these Russian players ever played a NHL game. Perhaps this is why he is reluctant to draft them now...
Andrei Nikolishin 628 games
Artem Chubarov 228 games

that's all he got out of 13 players.

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06-11-2012, 12:26 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by The Amazing Ralph View Post
And how many of them were consensus top 5 picks who have stated their intent to play in the NHL??
You don't only pick a Russian player because they are a top 5 pick, you pick them in any round if they are useful picks. The question is, is it pure coincidence he has not picked a Russian player in 8 drafts yet he has picked players from Germany, Czech republic, Sweden, Finland, signed free agent from Switzerland. Seems like an obvious snub.

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06-11-2012, 12:29 PM
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Aside from top talent, Burke relies on the scouts to make the draft picks. Maybe its the scouts that have the Russian problem.

Hope I don't need to pull out the countless quotes on this subject.

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06-11-2012, 12:32 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
You don't only pick a Russian player because they are a top 5 pick, you pick them in any round if they are useful picks. The question is, is it pure coincidence he has not picked a Russian player in 8 drafts yet he has picked players from Germany, Czech republic, Sweden, Finland, signed free agent from Switzerland. Seems like an obvious snub.
Maybe you do, but NHL teams don't seem to like to do that. Read my previous post. The first round is a completely different animal than the later rounds, with regards to the picking of Russian players.

Also, yes it could be pure coincidence that he hasn't picked a Russian. Over the past 8 drafts there have been over 1,500 players picked, and maybe 75 of those have been Russians? That means the OVERWHELMING majority of players picked are NON-RUSSIAN. Each team has their own set of rankings for the BPA at their respective slots. Maybe Burke has had some Russians lined up, but they were picked by other teams? Do you know otherwise? Add in to the fact that BURKE HAS REPEATEDLY STATED that he DOESN'T CARE where a player is from, leads me to believe that it actually is a coincidence. Of course, if a player has basically indicated that they are going to stay in the KHL, why would you pick them?

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06-11-2012, 12:35 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaeger View Post
Don't say anything about Datsyuk now. BUT. You really shouldn't draft Russians late in the draft or the one's who're seen as future bottom liners. Those Russians who can't be top line players in the NHL rather stay in the KHL nowadays. That's just the way it goes.
Exactly. It's the high-end Russians who most ofen get selected, and that happens in the first round. That is why Mikhail Grigorenko is a COMPLETELY different situation compared to some depth players who could have been picked in the last 8 drafts in rounds 2-7.

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06-11-2012, 12:38 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by HocKEyFrEaK99 View Post
Andrei Nikolishin 628 games
Artem Chubarov 228 games

that's all he got out of 13 players.
Did Burke draft Nikolishin? He was drafted the year before the Pronger draft. Burke lasted only a year and 1 draft with Hartford I recall.

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06-11-2012, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by jaeger View Post
Don't say anything about Datsyuk now. BUT. You really shouldn't draft Russians late in the draft or the one's who're seen as future bottom liners. Those Russians who can't be top line players in the NHL rather stay in the KHL nowadays. That's just the way it goes.
Datsyuk was actually passed over going undrafted in his first 2 entry drafts, and then wasn't selected until the late rounds of his 3rd draft.

Nowadays the KHL is a league that pays good money, and will always be a factor when it comes to Russian born players giving them a viable option outside the NHL to earn a living, and do it at home no less.

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06-11-2012, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by The Amazing Ralph View Post
Maybe you do, but NHL teams don't seem to like to do that. Read my previous post. The first round is a completely different animal than the later rounds, with regards to the picking of Russian players.

Also, yes it could be pure coincidence that he hasn't picked a Russian. Over the past 8 drafts there have been over 1,500 players picked, and maybe 75 of those have been Russians? That means the OVERWHELMING majority of players picked are NON-RUSSIAN. Each team has their own set of rankings for the BPA at their respective slots. Maybe Burke has had some Russians lined up, but they were picked by other teams? Do you know otherwise? Add in to the fact that BURKE HAS REPEATEDLY STATED that he DOESN'T CARE where a player is from, leads me to believe that it actually is a coincidence. Of course, if a player has basically indicated that they are going to stay in the KHL, why would you pick them?
Okay, I am perhaps more sceptical than you are. 8 years is a lot of pure coincidence to be as sure as you seem to be.

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06-11-2012, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
You don't only pick a Russian player because they are a top 5 pick, you pick them in any round if they are useful picks.
I disagree entirely. You don't touch Russians with lower picks because those are the guys (3-4th liners) that have no reason to stray from the KHL.

That's not anti-Russian, that's just the climate of the hockey world.

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06-11-2012, 12:45 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Okay, I am perhaps more sceptical than you are. 8 years is a lot of pure coincidence to be as sure as you seem to be.
There have been a lot of players picked in the last 8 drafts.

Few of them have been Russian

You don't know that Burke didn't have Russians on his short list

He has repeatedly stated that he doesn't care where a player is from, everything else equal.

Grigorenko has stated that he wants to play in the NHL, and Burke knows this.


I really don't see how my position is much of a stretch (it is not proven with facts, but I believe it is supported by the evidence). On your side of the argument however, you have to basically ignore statistics, disbelieve what Burke has stated on multiple occassions, and use conjecture. And all of this to try to convince us that Burke won't target Grigorenko, who is in a completely different case than the majority of Russians available in this draft.

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06-11-2012, 12:48 PM
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Pretty obvious that he's not interested in making a case for drafting Russians because he enjoys the attention.

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06-11-2012, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by The Amazing Ralph View Post
There have been a lot of players picked

Few of them have been Russian

You don't know that Burke didn't have Russians on his short list

He has repeatedly stated that he doesn't care where a player is from, everything else equal.

Grigorenko has stated that he wants to play in the NHL, and Burke knows this.


I really don't see how my position is much of a stretch (it is not proven with facts, but I believe it is supported by the evidence). On your side of the argument however, you have to basically ignore statistics, disbelieve what Burke has stated on multiple occassions, and use conjecture. And all of this to try to convince us that Burke won't target Grigorenko, who is in a completely different case than the majority of Russians available in this draft.
This is an interesting point, he may have, but when there is equal talent as he said in the interview I posted. He may choose position, or perhaps nationality. Obcourse he never is going to say this, but with Russian players there is that KHL option, to ignore it would be foolhardy.

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06-11-2012, 12:49 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by The Amazing Ralph View Post
Exactly. It's the high-end Russians who most ofen get selected, and that happens in the first round. That is why Mikhail Grigorenko is a COMPLETELY different situation compared to some depth players who could have been picked in the last 8 drafts in rounds 2-7.
Remember the 2007 entry draft, where Russian born Alexei Cherepanov was the #1 ranked prospect by ISS, Central Scouting, the Hockey News as well as Bob McKenzie draft preview?

Quote:
TSN.ca Staff with files
3/7/2007 6:52:42 PM


Alexei Cherepanov, an 18-year-old right-winger playing for Omsk of the Russian Elite League, is the No. 1-rated prospect for the 2007 NHL Entry Draft in the International Scouting Services March report.

Right-winger Patrick Kane of the OHL's London Knights is No. 2, and centre Kyle Turris of the BCJHL team in Burnaby is No. 3.

Left-winger James Van Riemsdyk of the U.S. under-18 program is No. 4 in the ISS rankings, while right-winger Jakub Voracek of the QMJHL's Halifax Mooseheads is No. 5.
Because of the Russian factor and unknown, he dropped all the way to #17 overall before the NYR selected him, with 16 NHL teams passing on the top ranked prospect.

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06-11-2012, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Remember the 2007 entry draft, where Russian born Alexei Cherepanov was the #1 ranked prospect by ISS, Central Scouting, the Hockey News as well as Bob MacKenzie draft preview?



Because of the Russian factor and unknown, he dropped all the way to #17 overall before the NYR selected him, with 16 NHL teams passing on the top ranked prospect.
Everyone knows Burke prefers NA players over Russian players, if there were 2 prospects of equal talent, he will take the NA player. Even the poltically correct types know this.

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06-11-2012, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Remember the 2007 entry draft, where Russian born Alexei Cherepanov was the #1 ranked prospect by ISS, Central Scouting, the Hockey News as well as Bob McKenzie draft preview?



Because of the Russian factor and unknown, he dropped all the way to #17 overall before the NYR selected him, with 16 NHL teams passing on the top ranked prospect.
OK, sure. Is that a similar situation to Grigorenko? Did Cherapanov come to Quebec as a 17 year old to learn the NA game and get acclimatized to the culture? Did Cherepanov repeatedly state that his goal is to play in the NHL?

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06-11-2012, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by The Amazing Ralph View Post
There have been a lot of players picked in the last 8 drafts.

Few of them have been Russian

You don't know that Burke didn't have Russians on his short list

He has repeatedly stated that he doesn't care where a player is from, everything else equal.

Grigorenko has stated that he wants to play in the NHL, and Burke knows this.


I really don't see how my position is much of a stretch (it is not proven with facts, but I believe it is supported by the evidence). On your side of the argument however, you have to basically ignore statistics, disbelieve what Burke has stated on multiple occassions, and use conjecture. And all of this to try to convince us that Burke won't target Grigorenko, who is in a completely different case than the majority of Russians available in this draft.
I think the simplest answer is:

If burke wasnt thinking of picking him, he wouldnt have wasted his time personally scouting him.

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06-11-2012, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Everyone knows Burke prefers NA players over Russian players, if there were 2 prospects of equal talent, he will take the NA player. Even the politically correct types know this.
Its also widely believed that it extends beyond Russian players and includes Eastern European countries like Czech, Slovak, etc also.

Just look at Burke's actions as Antropov, Pony, Kubina, Kaberle, Tlusty etc etc all were shipped out in trade as he built "his team" ..

Kubina dealt for scraps to sign USA Komisarek.
Kaberle dealt replaced with USA JM Liles.

No interest in UFAs Marian Gaborik or Ilya Kovalchuk for free of asset loss, but had no problem dealing multiple high draft picks for USA born Phil Kessel instead.

In Burke's 3 drafts 2009-2011 inclusive he has drafted 0 Eastern European born players among the 23 selections made.

Can anyone think of a non-inherited (Kulemin, Grabovski) Eastern European player Burke has acquired in trade, draft, signed as a UFA ?

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06-11-2012, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Everyone knows Burke prefers NA players over Russian players, if there were 2 prospects of equal talent, he will take the NA player. Even the poltically correct types know this.
I would think this would be the same for every GM league wide.

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06-11-2012, 01:16 PM
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OK, sure. Is that a similar situation to Grigorenko? Did Cherapanov come to Quebec as a 17 year old to learn the NA game and get acclimatized to the culture? Did Cherepanov repeatedly state that his goal is to play in the NHL?
Russian born youngsters come to the CHL to get playing time and training and exposure which doesn't go unnoticed to KHL teams. These 17 year old kids would be playing in lower level Russian leagues against low level talent for their development and the conditions are not great, as opposed to the CHL route.

Alex Radulov came to N.A. and tore up the QMJHL for a few seasons (2005-06 - Quebec Remparts - QMJHL .. 62 games 61 goals 91 assists 152 points & 101 pims), he even went on to help Remparts to a 2006 Memorial Cup championship.. He was a high ranked 1st round selection of Nashville, and then while still under NHL contract, fled back to Russia to play at home, using his NA development/exposure to get himself riches $$ in the KHL. He became a real headache to the Predators and was a wasted high pick when lost for years to a rival league.

Grigorenko plays for the very same junior team that Radulov once did, just a few years back the Quebec Remparts, so that example should hit pretty close to home as a similar situation.

Is Grigorenko the next Alex Radulov ? That is certainly something NHL scouts are asking themselves or at least teams concerned about when selecting Russian born players high.

Are Leafs willing to take that chance of using a top 5 pick on a player that could potentially leave, and return to Russia his home country ? What would fans say than ??


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06-11-2012, 01:47 PM
  #98
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Its also widely believed that it extends beyond Russian players and includes Eastern European countries like Czech, Slovak, etc also.

Just look at Burke's actions as Antropov, Pony, Kubina, Kaberle, Tlusty etc etc all were shipped out in trade as he built "his team" ..

Kubina dealt for scraps to sign USA Komisarek.
Kaberle dealt replaced with USA JM Liles.

No interest in UFAs Marian Gaborik or Ilya Kovalchuk for free of asset loss, but had no problem dealing multiple high draft picks for USA born Phil Kessel instead.

In Burke's 3 drafts 2009-2011 inclusive he has drafted 0 Eastern European born players among the 23 selections made.

Can anyone think of a non-inherited (Kulemin, Grabovski) Eastern European player Burke has acquired in trade, draft, signed as a UFA ?
Interesting point that didn't occur to me, when he was with Anaheim just before they won the cup, he moved out Fedorov, Bryzgalov, Chistov, Ozolinsh and Vishnevsky. He does like his swedes and finns however, obtaining Selanne, Paulsson, and Nokelainen.

So not only does he not draft Russians, he moves out the ones he inherits.

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06-11-2012, 01:57 PM
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Interesting point that didn't occur to me, when he was with Anaheim just before they won the cup, he moved out Fedorov, Bryzgalov, Chistov, Ozolinsh and Vishnevsky. He does like his swedes and finns however, obtaining Selanne, Paulsson, and Nokelainen.

So not only does he not draft Russians, he moves out the ones he inherits.
Wouldn't have won the Cup otherwise.

And Randy Carlyle dislikes Eastern Europeans.

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06-11-2012, 02:05 PM
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Interesting point that didn't occur to me, when he was with Anaheim just before they won the cup, he moved out Fedorov, Bryzgalov, Chistov, Ozolinsh and Vishnevsky. He does like his swedes and finns however, obtaining Selanne, Paulsson, and Nokelainen.
Western Europe is a different situation and the lure of the KHL for Swedes, Fins etc as it is for Eastern block countries, as they also have elite leagues in their own home countries and return there if their NHL careers don't pan out.

Eastern Europe verses Western Europe is a vastly different situation, and there is not a long history of Swedes/Fins etc defecting to rival leagues.

Actions speak louder than words and Burke has been purging the Eastern European content of the Leafs since he arrived, and replacing them predominantly through the draft, trades and UFA signings with NA born players.

Kulemin situation is the next one to watch as he becomes a RFA. Last time Kully was a RFA the contract talks were prickly at best. If Burke can't get him resigned to the $$ he likes, than Nikolai could find himself joining his Eastern Euro former mates with a new team next season after being traded. If in a contract stalemate the KHL which has a team that plays out of his hometown that might be an option.

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