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JVR Surgery Discussion (update post #356: No hip surgery for JVR, Holmgren confirms)

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Old
06-11-2012, 12:49 PM
  #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
would Flyer fans have patience with a young defenseman like Murray. I know with some he makes a mistake in game 2 and we have threads wanting to send him back to junior hockey.
C'mon...Pitkanen and Niinimaa are perfect examples of Flyers fan patience

I think though with a North American like Murray Flyers fans would have the patience and from what I've heard of Murray he's pretty much ready for prime time. Also, he will be a cheaper option cap wise although he will still have to be compensated fairly well as a high pick.

It sounds to me like the Flyers want to get another scorer like Nash and then draft an NHL ready D man like Murray. It's not such a bad plan IMO..

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06-11-2012, 12:50 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by FLYguy3911 View Post
Don't think it's worth trading up to number 2 to take Murray. Don't think he's worth it. Number 6-10 is a different story.
I feel almost exactly the opposite way--Murray might be worth giving up the assets it would take to get that high, but I'm not so certain about Reinhart, Dumba, etc.

(Obviously the key point is the difference in what it would cost to get to #2 rather than #6--I'd assume it would be JVR + 1st to get to 2, and probably JVR for the 6th.)

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06-11-2012, 12:52 PM
  #153
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Another package option would be Bobby Ryan and the 6th overall pick, which have both been rumored to being shopped. Ryan's cap hit is $2.7m/y less than Nash, and he's 2 years younger. The 6th overall pick can be Dumba, Trouba, Rielly, Reinhart, etc.

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06-11-2012, 12:53 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
If I were to throw together an educated guess to please those who are saying "why Nash? We need defense..."

Flyers offseason priorities:
1. Defense. Snider said so himself. There's no reason to believe that defense IS NOT the biggest priority.
2. Back-up goalie. They see Bob as a player not suited for the backup role, and more of a starter therefore making him a valuable trade piece
3. Scoring winger. The difference in points between Giroux and the 2nd highest scorer was 26 points. I think they want a long term solution for Giroux's flank, which is why Parise's name is definitely being thrown around, and now Nash. The magnitude of the potential of this move will make this seem like it's the highest priority...but it may just be the easiest fix of the offseason
This ^

I don't think Holmgren is thinking tunnel vision with just concentrating on the D. They do need another legit scorer. We don't know what we'll get with Simmonds and Hartnell again although Couts and Schenn should increase their production. I think Holmgren is looking at NJ and seeing how Kovalchuck has helped jersey and they don't even have the offense we have..at least from a pure skill perspective.

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06-11-2012, 12:58 PM
  #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
Another package option would be Bobby Ryan and the 6th overall pick, which have both been rumored to being shopped. Ryan's cap hit is $2.7m/y less than Nash, and he's 2 years younger. The 6th overall pick can be Dumba, Trouba, Rielly, Reinhart, etc.
For what? Schenn, JVR, and the 20th overall? Anaheim might do that. I doubt it, but they have a long-term need at 2C, JVR can replace some of Ryan's production, and they can still get a defensive prospect at 20.

I'd hate to give up Schenn, though.

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06-11-2012, 12:59 PM
  #156
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I don't like how this rumor has started another trade JVR Choo-Choo. Granted if we could get Nash at fair value with the cap so high, then why not? On the other hand I really want us to go after defensemen. Preferably NOT Suter or Weber since they would cost a lot, and we could take their salary and split it to two defensemen like Garrison AND Jackman. JVR is starting to wear thin on my patience however so I'm really split on this whole situation.

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06-11-2012, 01:01 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by DeflatedFootball7 View Post
I don't like how this rumor has started another trade JVR Choo-Choo. Granted if we could get Nash at fair value with the cap so high, then why not? On the other hand I really want us to go after defensemen. Preferably NOT Suter or Weber since they would cost a lot, and we could take their salary and split it to two defensemen like Garrison AND Jackman. JVR is starting to wear thin on my patience however so I'm really split on this whole situation.
Weber/Suter will probably cost just as much as Nash. Nash makes 7.8 million a year.

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06-11-2012, 01:02 PM
  #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coutsiephan View Post
C'mon...Pitkanen and Niinimaa are perfect examples of Flyers fan patience

I think though with a North American like Murray Flyers fans would have the patience and from what I've heard of Murray he's pretty much ready for prime time. Also, he will be a cheaper option cap wise although he will still have to be compensated fairly well as a high pick.

It sounds to me like the Flyers want to get another scorer like Nash and then draft an NHL ready D man like Murray. It's not such a bad plan IMO..
he may end up having a cap hit close to Schenn with bonuses ect. near 3 million.
I still think the Flyers could move up to #2 and draft a kid like Murray, but I would think if they want a high end forward they go after Parise instead IMO.
Unless Holmgren thinks he has the inside track on Justin Schultz instead of trading assets to move up to 2.

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06-11-2012, 01:04 PM
  #159
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I am all for trading JVR, as he clearly has not developed as we thought he would As of yet, and we proved we do not need his scoring as he hardly played all season and contributed very little when he did.

With that being said, the only way I would like to see him moved would be for a stud #1 Dman to solidify this defense. If we can't get that, I say we sit on him and let him regain his value and hopefully develop like most power fowards do at age 24-25 in the next few years.

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06-11-2012, 01:05 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by BrindamoursNose View Post
Weber/Suter will probably cost just as much as Nash. Nash makes 7.8 million a year.
True, but I was more focused on the fact that we could get two for the price of one if we went after the Garrison and Jackman combo.

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06-11-2012, 01:05 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by FLYguy3911 View Post
Don't think it's worth trading up to number 2 to take Murray. Don't think he's worth it. Number 6-10 is a different story.
Eh, I also disagree with this. Murray is EASILY the best defender in the draft and he is NHL ready (something the Flyers love)

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06-11-2012, 01:06 PM
  #162
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In addition to Ryan and the 6th overall, the Ducks also still hold the rights to Justin Schultz. Personally I think Homer should spend the next 3 weeks on the phone with Murray trying to steal away all 3...

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06-11-2012, 01:09 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
In addition to Ryan and the 6th overall, the Ducks also still hold the rights to Justin Schultz. Personally I think Homer should spend the next 3 weeks on the phone with Murray trying to steal away all 3...

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06-11-2012, 01:09 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
he may end up having a cap hit close to Schenn with bonuses ect. near 3 million.
I still think the Flyers could move up to #2 and draft a kid like Murray, but I would think if they want a high end forward they go after Parise instead IMO.
Unless Holmgren thinks he has the inside track on Justin Schultz instead of trading assets to move up to 2.
As I noted earlier..it just seems Lavy is not really going to change his style so I think the Flyers will bolster themselves with a larger sword than a shield for this year since Weber and Suter just don't seem like they are options here for various reasons. They will try and move up and draft an NHL ready D man, get another scorer with some muscle/size like a Nash (Parise seems redundant because of Briere, Giroux) and then sign a mid grade D person for depth. Then next year when Timonen retires they can bolster some more...it can be a 3 year plan (last year was the first) for an eventual cup win by year 4 or 5.....yeah that's the Stanley Cup ticket

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06-11-2012, 01:11 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
In addition to Ryan and the 6th overall, the Ducks also still hold the rights to Justin Schultz. Personally I think Homer should spend the next 3 weeks on the phone with Murray trying to steal away all 3...
What are you planning to give up?

Schultz has already said that he is going to UFA--as per Eliotte Friedman. There's not reason to trade anything significant for his rights.

Ryan would cost two young roster players--I don't think there's any doubt about that. Maybe Anaheim bites on Couturier + picks, but I doubt it, and I think most of the fans here would oppose such a move. Anaheim has no reason to swap Ryan for JVR unless they are getting a pretty substantial add-on. When you consider the value of the 6th overall, it gets a little fantastical, even for HF.

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06-11-2012, 01:11 PM
  #166
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JVR could be swapped from Columbus to Toronto....also a consideration.

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06-11-2012, 01:12 PM
  #167
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Eh, I also disagree with this. Murray is EASILY the best defender in the draft and he is NHL ready (something the Flyers love)
He looks like a Matt Carle type. I'd prefer dumba

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06-11-2012, 01:12 PM
  #168
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Eh, I also disagree with this. Murray is EASILY the best defender in the draft and he is NHL ready (something the Flyers love)
He may be the most NHL-ready but I don't think he's "easily" the best defenseman in the draft. Is he the safest? Yeah definitely. I think it's a little crazy to expect a 19 year old defenseman to step in and take us to the promised land. I'd rather take a chance on Dumba or Reinhart, but it seems people are more interested in getting the "NHL-ready" player. I guess we will know in 5 years.

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06-11-2012, 01:13 PM
  #169
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JVR could be swapped from Columbus to Toronto....also a consideration.
For what though?

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06-11-2012, 01:14 PM
  #170
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True, but I was more focused on the fact that we could get two for the price of one if we went after the Garrison and Jackman combo.
But I don't think we need that. I'd rather get that 1 stud than two good defenseman. We have several good defenseman, but we're missing that can't-miss dependable guy.

And getting Rick Nash is just silly (in my opinion). We scored a ton last year...why put assets and ton of salary into a guy who mainly just scores goals?

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06-11-2012, 01:15 PM
  #171
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Originally Posted by FLYguy3911 View Post
He may be the most NHL-ready but I don't think he's "easily" the best defenseman in the draft. Is he the safest? Yeah definitely. I think it's a little crazy to expect a 19 year old defenseman to step in and take us to the promised land. I guess we will know in 5 years.
Who do you have infront of him? Dumba? Ceci? Reinhart? Obviously it would be too much to expect him to take us to the promise land his first year, but he is the blue chip defender the Flyers need.

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06-11-2012, 01:16 PM
  #172
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For what though?
Why do you even ask....Kadri!

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06-11-2012, 01:17 PM
  #173
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it probably is true probably like two or three weeks ago, but i think he's using this as a smoke screen to get the detail done before the draft, it was probably in the works ever since the flyers got knocked out, like carter and richards, he's not going to say anything about the rumors, yeah we are trading jvr and bob and a first, we are getting done asap, you really think he's going to say that? i never heard of any gm confirming a rumor before getting it done, it's hurts the organization and the deal.

homer will do anything to keep media off his back, even if it's not nash, jvr has to be dealt no matter what because of his cap hit and it's the only way the flyers can clear cap to sign or fix the defense, not unless you want giroux or hartnell gone, i would rather have jvr gone than harts or giroux since it's chemistry.


if jvr goes and fans dont like it, theirs the door for ya bye bye. they wont miss you, it just proves how unpassionate flyer fans are to this organization because they think it's easy for the flyers to keep everyone and dont understand it's a business and they have to manage the cap to make this team better or else no playoffs. i would take playoffs over being a fan over one player that can hurt this organization to make this team better, which is why they always make the playoffs.
Sure. And we haven't won the Cup since 75 and management trades and drafts without any thought to the long term. But blame the fans for not drinking the kool aid!

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06-11-2012, 01:17 PM
  #174
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Why do you even ask....Kadri!
I thought you meant Gardiner

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06-11-2012, 01:19 PM
  #175
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Who do you have infront of him? Dumba? Ceci? Reinhart? Obviously it would be too much to expect him to take us to the promise land his first year, but he is the blue chip defender the Flyers need.
I added more to my post. I'd rather take a chance on Dumba or Reinhart (Even Rielly). There's more upside there. More risk also. Regardless of what happens with the draft, barring getting Yakupov no one is making an impact this year. Yes Murray could play 3rd pairing minutes but I don't see him putting us over the top next year. Therefore, I'd look long-term. And I'm not taking Dumba or Reinhart at #2 either, which is why I'd look to get pick #6-#10.

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