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Old
06-07-2012, 02:49 PM
  #51
MarkGio
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Yeah that is exactly what I had in mind C'mon man.

As for the Athiest comment, I'm Athiest, and would find that offensive...but I'm not a religious bigot
Don't shake your head at me like I'm the bad guy. These things happen and there should be things in place to allow good people to play the game without having to "suck it up". If you can't handle the hard decisions, then don't take a stance. This is what good decision makers do.

I'm not a bigot. I think you need to read my comment again. I'm an advocate of freedom, regardless of beliefs, orientation, and class. Please read my comment again. If you still believe I'm a bigot, PM me and I'll be happy to disclose my values/beliefs to you.

Ok. On the flip side. It's like parents who choose the spouse, careers, and beliefs for their children and get mad at our laws and society when their children become religous, married to the person chosen to them, and doctors/lawyers/engineers/etc.

The point isn't what the person is, it's being mad at the rules and not at themselves. We shouldn't blame players for wanting to leave, we should be asking why they want to leave. Why doesn't Shultz want to play for Anahiem? Why doesn't your child want to become a lawyer? **** like that.


Last edited by MarkGio: 06-07-2012 at 03:15 PM.
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Old
06-07-2012, 03:01 PM
  #52
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Don't shake your head at me like I'm the bad guy. These things happen and there should be things in place to allow good people to play the game without having to "suck it up".

I'm not a biogot. I think you need to read my comment again. I'm an advocate of freedom, regardless of beliefs, orientation, and class.
1) When i saw players should pay their dues, that in no way translates into me saying players should let their coaches touch them in an inappropriate way. I have no idea how that is even relevent to the conversation. If a player comes out and says a coach sexually assaulted them, I'm pretty sure that coach would be done forever. And yes I'd advocate for ELCs to be able to request a trade if that particular situation should arise.

2) I was joking of course

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06-07-2012, 03:13 PM
  #53
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1) When i saw players should pay their dues, that in no way translates into me saying players should let their coaches touch them in an inappropriate way. I have no idea how that is even relevent to the conversation. If a player comes out and says a coach sexually assaulted them, I'm pretty sure that coach would be done forever. And yes I'd advocate for ELCs to be able to request a trade if that particular situation should arise.

2) I was joking of course
Ok. So we don't need to argue. I just don't think players should be "jailed" to an organization. Things can arise sometimes. If the loopholes were really challenging and difficult, and still a player wants to go that route, then what's the harm?

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06-07-2012, 03:19 PM
  #54
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Ok. So we don't need to argue. I just don't think players should be "jailed" to an organization. Things can arise sometimes. If the loopholes were really challenging and difficult, and still a player wants to go that route, then what's the harm?
I guess, when you look at it that way. Why would you want him on your team if he worked that hard to get off of it. I just would not hand over free reign to ELCs


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Old
06-07-2012, 03:28 PM
  #55
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No one is right or wrong, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

Owners of these teams fork out millions and millions of dollars every year and fans also spend their hard earned dollars to cheer on their favorite teams/players. Again, looking at this in a trickle down effect, it can harm a franchise over a period of time by potentially giving that team a negative image/perception by an organization having an inability to sign the players they draft. This can have disastrous results, look at a team like Phoenix and how many players they have lost because they want out.

This has been happening more and more and it needs to be addressed IMO. I actually really like MR's suggestion of the NBA model because it protects both the players and teams interests, which ultimately is fair for both parties. In the case that a GM wants to trade a player that does not want to play for their team, well at least they are under contract and they can get a fair return back for that player in that model.

In the end, its the fans that pay the price.

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06-07-2012, 03:57 PM
  #56
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Doesn't the leagues set the terms with other leagues? An NCAA drafted player and the CHL drafted players has different terms right?

There's a lot of players who get drafted and want their degree as a back-up career or after-hockey career, but I'm sure owners wants to get the most from their players, and the fans want to be entertained, so both parties would like the player to just play hockey. But again, it boils down to personal freedom.

Don't blame the players if people are entertained by hockey. It's business and ethics. For example, I'm not mad that Johnny Depp isn't making movies even though I pay an arm and a leg to watch him act. Who cares about the fans? Johnny Depp doesn't owe me a thing.

And again, having some inability to sign drafted players makes the game more dynamic. All those teams who purposely tank will no longer have a completely risk free system if the drafted players don't sign, hence they got to try to compete. I would much prefer a game with several winning formulas, rather than one. If there's no risks to the draft, cheap teams/owners won't look elsewhere to fill their roster.

I've already touched on the other side of the coin, so I know it's not a one-way argument. I'm not critizing MR's model, as every model has it's downfalls.

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06-07-2012, 04:20 PM
  #57
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Doesn't the leagues set the terms with other leagues? An NCAA drafted player and the CHL drafted players has different terms right?

There's a lot of players who get drafted and want their degree as a back-up career or after-hockey career, but I'm sure owners wants to get the most from their players, and the fans want to be entertained, so both parties would like the player to just play hockey. But again, it boils down to personal freedom.

Don't blame the players if people are entertained by hockey. It's business and ethics. For example, I'm not mad that Johnny Depp isn't making movies even though I pay an arm and a leg to watch him act. Who cares about the fans? Johnny Depp doesn't owe me a thing.

And again, having some inability to sign drafted players makes the game more dynamic. All those teams who purposely tank will no longer have a completely risk free system if the drafted players don't sign, hence they got to try to compete. I would much prefer a game with several winning formulas, rather than one. If there's no risks to the draft, cheap teams/owners won't look elsewhere to fill their roster.

I've already touched on the other side of the coin, so I know it's not a one-way argument. I'm not critizing MR's model, as every model has it's downfalls.
That is definitely a good point, I will give you that. Again, everyone has their own views and opinions and no systems is perfect. I just know how unfair it felt the way the whole Erixon thing went down and I don't think its fair that a player that has never played a single NHL game can screw an organization over that way. At least Feaster was saavy enough recoup some decent assets (ie. Horak, Granlund and Wotherspoon). Hopefully in the end, we end up with at least one quality asset out of those 3.

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06-07-2012, 07:51 PM
  #58
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So if you working at a job where you're being diddled by your coach (eg. Fluery), you should shut up and pay your dues? Where do situations like those fall into your theory?

And you can step out school and do all that stuff if you want. Hell I've seen guys lie on their resume and got jobs typically given to people 3 times as qualified. Anyways, some "brat" hockey player is going to have a hard career because there's only 29 other jobs, and there's a million people who would lie, cheat and steal to have that job. I wouldn't concern myself with such things.

I'm for the ELC because it's good for the game (handicaps). But there should be challenging loopholes to allow players to be free to decide their own career. It's like parents who decide the careers, spouses, and values for their children and then get mad at our society and laws because their children became gay, athiest janitors. Everybody should have choice, and a good organization should foster players to stay, not depend on the rules.
I agree with Gnome on this one man. I also think you are taking his theory too far. He isn't talking about situations where the player wants to leave the organization, he is talking about a player wanting out before they even start their job. A player still has a chance to make sure they don't play for a team they don't want to, they can do that by simply saying in the pre-draft interviews that they will not play for them.

You see this occasionally at the NBA draft and the team will either pick another player or draft them and trade them immediately.

That is where the problem with the Erixon situation lies, there was deception by the player and he just kept giving Feaster a reason not to sign, when Feaster came up with a solution, he created another problem. He forced the Flames into a trade me or I go back into the draft scenario. And it just made everyone angry that the on;y team pushing to acquire him was teh one that his father works for. Had Erixon said from the start, "I don't want to sign in Calgary" I would have no issues, then we could have found a better solution. As long as there is good faith between the player and franchise I have no problem with the current system, but Erixon has shown us not every player will negotiate in good faith.

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Old
06-07-2012, 10:02 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Medium Rare View Post
I agree with Gnome on this one man. I also think you are taking his theory too far. He isn't talking about situations where the player wants to leave the organization, he is talking about a player wanting out before they even start their job. A player still has a chance to make sure they don't play for a team they don't want to, they can do that by simply saying in the pre-draft interviews that they will not play for them.

You see this occasionally at the NBA draft and the team will either pick another player or draft them and trade them immediately.

That is where the problem with the Erixon situation lies, there was deception by the player and he just kept giving Feaster a reason not to sign, when Feaster came up with a solution, he created another problem. He forced the Flames into a trade me or I go back into the draft scenario. And it just made everyone angry that the on;y team pushing to acquire him was teh one that his father works for. Had Erixon said from the start, "I don't want to sign in Calgary" I would have no issues, then we could have found a better solution. As long as there is good faith between the player and franchise I have no problem with the current system, but Erixon has shown us not every player will negotiate in good faith.
Well I probably went too far. I get nobody wants to get screwed over, and I get the need for the draft lottery and handicap, and all that good stuff. But look at Erixon now.... If he screws up in N.Y, only desperate teams will take him. If there comes a time where the Flames are in the mix of things and cup favorites, Erixon might have ****ed himself out of a cup.

Take Lindros for example. No matter how good his career was, he'll always be hated. I know personally, I wouldn't want to be hated by an entire city, province, or perhaps more. Like I said, I wouldn't concern myself with such things. It rarely happens anyways, so there it's not like it's a pandemic where we need to change the whole system. Besides, maybe we'll land Shultz and it will all work out...

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06-07-2012, 10:13 PM
  #60
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Well I probably went too far. I get nobody wants to get screwed over, and I get the need for the draft lottery and handicap, and all that good stuff. But look at Erixon now.... If he screws up in N.Y, only desperate teams will take him. If there comes a time where the Flames are in the mix of things and cup favorites, Erixon might have ****ed himself out of a cup.

Take Lindros for example. No matter how good his career was, he'll always be hated. I know personally, I wouldn't want to be hated by an entire city, province, or perhaps more. Like I said, I wouldn't concern myself with such things. It rarely happens anyways, so there it's not like it's a pandemic where we need to change the whole system. Besides, maybe we'll land Shultz and it will all work out...
I have less of a problem with Lindros than Erixon because even though Lindros was an ass, he was at least honest.

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06-08-2012, 12:03 PM
  #61
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Paul Maurice becomes head coach of Magnitogorsk

I'll be watching this with great personal interest.

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06-08-2012, 12:38 PM
  #62
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Paul Maurice becomes head coach of Magnitogorsk

I'll be watching this with great personal interest.
Interesting. Will be cool to follow to see how he does, especially with his former goalie coach coming with him.

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06-08-2012, 02:14 PM
  #63
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Rick Jeanneret to be inducted into the HHOF.


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06-09-2012, 03:24 PM
  #64
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The Bruins are apparently close to re-signing Chris Kelly and Gregory Campbell according to Bob McKenzie.

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06-10-2012, 02:30 PM
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there is speculation that Crosby and the Pens are working on a 10 year deal with an AAV of $9,000,000

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06-10-2012, 02:33 PM
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also speculation that the Pens and Canes are discussing a Jordan Staal trade.

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06-10-2012, 03:03 PM
  #67
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Sharks get Brad Stuart from Detroit for forward Andrew Murray and a conditional pick in 2014.

Sharks.com

Edit: Sharks pick is a 7th in 2014, according to Dreger.


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06-10-2012, 04:29 PM
  #68
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Sharks get Brad Stuart from Detroit for forward Andrew Murray and a conditional pick in 2014.

Sharks.com

Edit: Sharks pick is a 7th in 2014, according to Dreger.
Smart move he wants to be on the west coast and is a good physical defensive defenseman. Detroit atleast gets a 4th liner for a player that was leaving.

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06-10-2012, 07:21 PM
  #69
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also speculation that the Pens and Canes are discussing a Jordan Staal trade.
The Canes are slowly building a team made up completely of Staals and Sutters. They'll be like the mafia.

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06-10-2012, 07:52 PM
  #70
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The Canes are slowly building a team made up completely of Staals and Sutters. They'll be like the mafia.
It worked for the Flames

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06-11-2012, 01:56 PM
  #71
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Oilers just rehired Craig McTavish as the Senior Vice-President of Hockey Operations. The circus continues.

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06-11-2012, 02:10 PM
  #72
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Oilers just rehired Craig McTavish as the Senior Vice-President of Hockey Operations. The circus continues.
Wow. I'll never understand why the Oilers continue to reward failure. Kevin Lowe, Steve Tambo, and now Craig Mac have gotten promotions when they all contributed to building a failing organization.

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06-11-2012, 04:48 PM
  #73
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Wow. I'll never understand why the Oilers continue to reward failure. Kevin Lowe, Steve Tambo, and now Craig Mac have gotten promotions when they all contributed to building a failing organization.
MacTavish doesn't fit with the other 2 IMO. He's been gone during most of the failure.

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06-11-2012, 05:08 PM
  #74
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Boston signs Chris Kelly on four-year, $12M deal ($3 million/year) and signs Gregory Campbell on three-year, $4.8M deal ($1.6 million/year). Source: TSNBobMckenzie

I think the Campbell deal is a measuring stick for what the Flames might have to offer Backlund.

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06-11-2012, 05:39 PM
  #75
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I think the Campbell deal is a measuring stick for what the Flames might have to offer Backlund.
While I think the salaries could be comparable, I would think the deal Turris signed earlier this season would be more of a measuring stick. Same age, both underachieved, both RFAs.

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