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Off-Season Discussion Part V (Cap info in 1st post)

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Old
06-11-2012, 12:57 PM
  #26
shureshot66
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Speaking of Crosby, Elliotte Friedman has some interesting stuff here.

Quote:
Let me clarify one thing. The 10-year, $90-million thing is getting a little out of control. While it's possible those may be the final numbers, the two sides aren't yet that far in negotiations. But as reported on The Hotstove, I do think it will be at least that long and, for reasons you will soon read, believe $9 million is going to be the approximate cap hit. (I used those numbers as a framework when doing the legwork).
Quote:
While it's Brisson's job to go in there and swing for the fences, one Crosby friend said common sense is going to prevail: "I just can't see him taking a deal that's going to cripple the team or be overly ridiculous. It's not him."
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/opin...-penguins.html

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Old
06-11-2012, 01:08 PM
  #27
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Thank you, SS. People on the main boards were going insane over a discussion they had on HS. It was unreal.

I just want the guy signed so I know he's a Penguin for a long..long..long time. That's all. I'll feel the same when Letang/Malkin are up. Anyone else - i'm completely okay with losing. #87 #71 #58 need to be Penguins.

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06-11-2012, 01:16 PM
  #28
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I think everyone will be Penguins. I just think that the guys here value where they are at this moment in time. They all will get paid, they just won't get paid like they would on the opened market. I don't think any of them will mind though, especially if they get locked in to a new deal before the old one is even up. 1 bird in hand...


I think we can all see Geno taking an identical deal to Sid, and my personal opinion is that Staal isn't going to get the 5.5-6.0 like some are suggesting. I see him in the 5 million dollar range, as that's where his comparables are all set (I'll be patiently awaiting someone to bring up Mikko Koivu). Honestly, the guy most deserving of a raise is Letang, and his raise will probably be to the tune of 2-3 million dollars over a long term deal.

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06-11-2012, 01:29 PM
  #29
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Staal would be a fool to take 5 million though unless it's in exchange for more term like a 9 or 10 year deal. He knows he can easily get more than 5 million/per in one year when he hits UFA.

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06-11-2012, 01:37 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Hook View Post
Staal would be a fool to take 5 million though unless it's in exchange for more term like a 9 or 10 year deal. He knows he can easily get more than 5 million/per in one year when he hits UFA.
His agent won't let him do that. Could you imagine how much of a steal $5M will be after year 5/6 in a 10 year deal. Hell.. David freaking Jones just for 4 per year from Colorado. If they go 10 years... Shero will have to pony up at least 6+ if they agree.

I have a bad feeling about the Staal signing. It's going to be tough negotiations. I actually think Geno/Sid are much easier to deal with. Rightfully so. Jordan could make a huge deal in the off-season.

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06-11-2012, 02:22 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JTG View Post
I see him in the 5 million dollar range, as that's where his comparables are all set (I'll be patiently awaiting someone to bring up Mikko Koivu). Honestly, the guy most deserving of a raise is Letang, and his raise will probably be to the tune of 2-3 million dollars over a long term deal.
More recently, that's where a lot of guys noticeably worse than him are at. Grabovsky at 5.5, Hemsky at 5, Leino at 4.5, Laich at 4.5. Someone will pay Staal over 6 million dollars without even thinking twice about it. I think it's possible we can get him for 5.5-6 but if he signs for 5 mil his agent might have a heart attack.

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06-11-2012, 02:34 PM
  #32
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If Staal is signed for the next several years I would like to see the 3 rolling center model in the playoffs again. When the Pens ran Crosby, Malkin, or Staal on the 4th line it made the opposing defense work that much harder. Now obviously you cannot do that every playoff game for 60 minutes but at the end of periods it could be deadly. If that is the plan for future playoff games I think it is worth it to sign Staal for 5.5-6.

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06-11-2012, 02:36 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
More recently, that's where a lot of guys noticeably worse than him are at. Grabovsky at 5.5, Hemsky at 5, Leino at 4.5, Laich at 4.5. Someone will pay Staal over 6 million dollars without even thinking twice about it. I think it's possible we can get him for 5.5-6 but if he signs for 5 mil his agent might have a heart attack.
This ^. The minute Grabovski signed that deal, Staal started dreaming about solid gold toilets.

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Old
06-11-2012, 02:36 PM
  #34
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The thing is if Staal goes to another team and gets to be the 2nd line center next season and gets 1st PP minutes he could be a 70 point player and all of a sudden instead of being a good 2 way fwd with a bit of offensive upside hes a top 20 offensive player in the league who plays ridiculous defense and is worth 7 mil.

I don't blame him for wanting a bigger role now. He's 1 year away from getting a new contract, so now is the time for him to be able to show his offensive ability.

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06-11-2012, 02:44 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phaneuf_fan_3 View Post
The thing is if Staal goes to another team and gets to be the 2nd line center next season and gets 1st PP minutes he could be a 70 point player and all of a sudden instead of being a good 2 way fwd with a bit of offensive upside hes a top 20 offensive player in the league who plays ridiculous defense and is worth 7 mil.

I don't blame him for wanting a bigger role now. He's 1 year away from getting a new contract, so now is the time for him to be able to show his offensive ability.
exactly this. it might only be a small bump in pay now, but if he can prove that he deserves to be a number 1/2 center we could be talking quite a few millions of dollars over his career.

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06-11-2012, 02:53 PM
  #36
Til the End of Time
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hockey-wise it's a no brainer to sign sid to a deal like this. if he gets hurt again, put him on ltir or he retires-- either way your team going forward isn't handicapped.

financially the deal is risky though, if the contract can't be insured. and there is a reason why the deal wouldnt be insurable-- players with a history of concussions are more likely to sustain further injuries. the idea of paying anyone $90 million to sit at home must be a tough pill to swallow for ownership. if the penguins do sign sid to such a deal, it must mean they are doing pretty well financially.

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Old
06-11-2012, 02:59 PM
  #37
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also could we make all-purpose crosby thread? it would be easier to keep things straight.

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Old
06-11-2012, 03:03 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Til the End of Time View Post
also could we make all-purpose crosby thread? it would be easier to keep things straight.
I think the problem is that inevitably this thread and the crosby thread would both devolve into arguments about how bad Martin sucks.

ok so the topic might not be that, but two threads about signings always end up in the same place because your mind gets on to a topic in one and its close enough to the other that they cross over.

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Old
06-11-2012, 03:13 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Til the End of Time View Post
hockey-wise it's a no brainer to sign sid to a deal like this. if he gets hurt again, put him on ltir or he retires-- either way your team going forward isn't handicapped.

financially the deal is risky though, if the contract can't be insured. and there is a reason why the deal wouldnt be insurable-- players with a history of concussions are more likely to sustain further injuries. the idea of paying anyone $90 million to sit at home must be a tough pill to swallow for ownership. if the penguins do sign sid to such a deal, it must mean they are doing pretty well financially.
Yeah as far as how it would work for the Pens its a no brainer to do a deal. If he gets hurt he goes on LTIR or Retires and cap hit doesnt count. At least for next year he wont be insurable. It's possible that he could get insured beyond that if he has a healthy year though.

2. Here's how the NHL's insurance program works. Not every contract gets coverage, but those involved are protected for 80 per cent of the salary five years at a time and, as each year on a long-term contract expires, the next year is insured. There is a 30-game deductible, meaning a player must miss that much action before the coverage kicks in. There are also special terms for players over 35, but that will not affect Crosby.

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Old
06-11-2012, 03:23 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Til the End of Time View Post
also could we make all-purpose crosby thread? it would be easier to keep things straight.
We had one before... must have died out or hit 1k and he came back. I really don't mind it.. but i don't want individual threads for all players. That would be ridiculous.

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Old
06-11-2012, 05:44 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
Need to state a fact:

At no point since all of our 3 C stars were on their entry level contracts have we paid less of our total cap for them than we will next season.
Right now we are looking at those three taking up 30.4 percent of our cap for next season.

Should Sid get 10 million, should Malkin get 10 and should Staal get 7, it would be a total of 27 million per in 2014. Should the cap be where it is now in two years, that would be 38.4 percent of the cap. I think anyone can agree that this is likely more than what it will/should be.
Then imagine that instead it is 8.7+8.7+6 which is the 'lovely' scenario, then that would be 23.4 million and 33.3 percent.

When Malkin and Staal got their present contracts, ie. the year we won the cup, those three accounted for 21.4 million between them, and the cap was 56.7 million. Ie. they got 37.7 percent of the cap.

If you think we would be paying those guys too much.... when we won the cup when they were less complete players.... and took up a bigger portion of our payroll.... then you are wrong. We would be paying other players too much if we failed to be able to retain them with such salaries.
Excellent post.

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Old
06-11-2012, 06:37 PM
  #42
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Good reads, folks.


Keep it up.

I still see them in the end signing both Sid and Staal and wait to see how Geno and Kris's deals go in a couple seasons. They can make it all work that long at least.

After that, many contracts will be up with infusion of ELC's might even make it work for another 4/5 seasons. Who knows.

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Old
06-11-2012, 06:41 PM
  #43
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I saw a nice proposal on the Staal thread on the main board last night.

Staal
Orpik

For

Clowe
Pavelski


Seems good, you guys like? What would lines look like then?

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Old
06-11-2012, 06:41 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
More recently, that's where a lot of guys noticeably worse than him are at. Grabovsky at 5.5, Hemsky at 5, Leino at 4.5, Laich at 4.5. Someone will pay Staal over 6 million dollars without even thinking twice about it. I think it's possible we can get him for 5.5-6 but if he signs for 5 mil his agent might have a heart attack.
Neal signing the deal he just signed should be the exact same deal Jordan Staal gets.

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06-11-2012, 07:00 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 66-29-33 View Post
I saw a nice proposal on the Staal thread on the main board last night.

Staal
Orpik

For

Clowe
Pavelski


Seems good, you guys like? What would lines look like then?
If trading Staal is a must, I really like this deal.

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Old
06-11-2012, 07:13 PM
  #46
Ogrezilla
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JTG View Post
Neal signing the deal he just signed should be the exact same deal Jordan Staal gets.
Neal was an RFA not UFA. Staal is not signing for what Neal signed for unless he is feeling very very generous. Neal also has to know that he is in a perfect situation playing with either Sid or Geno. Not so much for Staal.


Last edited by Ogrezilla: 06-11-2012 at 07:18 PM.
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06-11-2012, 07:37 PM
  #47
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Am I the only one that thinks Staal holds more value on the open market than Neal? Let alone RFA vs UFA status and Neal being in an ideal situation versus Staal playing behind the two best centers in the game.

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06-11-2012, 08:13 PM
  #48
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Whose to say staal hasn't benefitted from that too? Playing against third pairings...he also wasn't very "shutdown" esque this season. I can recall tons of mental breakdowns with him in the d zone.

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Old
06-11-2012, 08:19 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by OnMyOwn View Post
Whose to say staal hasn't benefitted from that too? Playing against third pairings...he also wasn't very "shutdown" esque this season. I can recall tons of mental breakdowns with him in the d zone.
It was pretty obvious that his offense improved as he was given a bigger offensive role. His numbers went up right on cue with Sid going out last year.

Also, he plays the hardest minutes against the hardest competition of any of our 3 centers (any of our players actually). Not the other shut-down lines I guess, but the best lines. I don't have the link to the graphic someone showed last week but if anyone does I'd love to see it again.

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06-11-2012, 08:23 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
Am I the only one that thinks Staal holds more value on the open market than Neal? Let alone RFA vs UFA status and Neal being in an ideal situation versus Staal playing behind the two best centers in the game.
The thing that I think sort of gets mixed up here is that people look at what Staal can get on the opened market and then say, "Well that's what Shero has to pay to keep him." I say false. As a player, you get opened market money when you hit the opened market. That's not as desirable a position for Staal right now as would be signing a brand new deal going into next season. That's ideal. Getting paid opened market money a year early is Staal having his cake and eating it too. If he wants that sort of money, he's going to have to play this season without a contract for next year. That's a huge risk on his part, especially considering Shero would probably be real quick to sign him to a deal in the 5-5.5 range, which as I said before, is a very good, competitive salary for what he brings, and players he is routinely compared to makes about the same.

Staal also doesn't have leverage here. He's not a top 6 center here where we have to sign him or we're doomed. He's a luxury so Shero doesn't have to succumb to his offers. What he can do is trade Staal where ever he sees fit if Jordan doesn't want to sign, and again, that's not even slightly desirable for Staal. He'd rather be here, he has said as much, which is why I think he will take a market deal a year before being a free agent v. riding this year out and getting 6+ million (if he gets that due to the cap tanking).

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