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JVR Surgery Discussion (update post #356: No hip surgery for JVR, Holmgren confirms)

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06-12-2012, 10:28 AM
  #276
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Crazy organization. Go ahead and acquire the 8 million dollar 60 point man.

We have 60 point guys who we pay half that and have a garbage defense that is in shambles, but we need Nash.



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06-12-2012, 10:28 AM
  #277
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Id love Rick Nash as a flyer, so long as Couturier/Schenn don't get shipped out because of it.

Stop with the 60 point BS, he would be an 80 point+ guy playing a long side Giroux, and on a team that is constantly contending and in the hunt nearly every year.

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06-12-2012, 11:20 AM
  #278
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Originally Posted by Rainbow Express View Post
Crazy organization. Go ahead and acquire the 8 million dollar 60 point man.

We have 60 point guys who we pay half that and have a garbage defense that is in shambles, but we need Nash.

I really don't understand why you arent getting this. If you were a hockey player, would you be more inclined to give it everything you have for a last place, perennial loser team who never does anything to get out of that position, or the flyers? I think it's pretty simple. Statistics are not so black and white, but you're still applying his numbers in Columbus to how he'd perform here. You can say "he's not a winner, he should give it his all no matter where he's playing", but the fact is it's human nature, and it's largely subconscious. If you're surrounded by losers in a losing environment, you're not going to care nearly as much as you would on a perennial winning team. That's just the way it is.

Nash is a big bodied winger. What is the traditional purpose of a winger? Dig pucks out on the boards, screen the goaltender, and act as weapons for your center. Stop acting like because nash isn't a 100pt player on an awful team with no one to play with, and no motivation to give it 100%, hes worthless.

This argument that nash is a fraud because he shouldn't need an elite center or good linemates to produce to his potential is absolutely shortsighted. Name me 5 great wingers in hockey history who never had a good center to attribute parts of their success to.

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06-12-2012, 12:01 PM
  #279
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there are no gaurantees that Nash would be a 40-50 goal scorer with Giroux.

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06-12-2012, 12:01 PM
  #280
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put it this way: how many points do we think Briere would get per year on CBJ?

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06-12-2012, 12:08 PM
  #281
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
there are no gaurantees that Nash would be a 40-50 goal scorer with Giroux.
...and what is JVR's guaranteed production? The future production of "2012 20th overall selection"?

If the Flyers are convinced that JVR will never be more than a decent second line winger, then it really isn't a difficult decision to trade him (as the centerpiece, not a throw-in) for Nash, who, while overpaid, is a bonafide top-line winger.

I think most of us still cling to the flashes of brilliance by JVR and hold hope for steadier production, but I'm beginning to wonder if a critical mass in the Flyers front office holds a different view.

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06-12-2012, 12:16 PM
  #282
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Originally Posted by Rainbow Express View Post
Crazy organization. Go ahead and acquire the 8 million dollar 60 point man.

We have 60 point guys who we pay half that and have a garbage defense that is in shambles, but we need Nash.

Your inability to recognize, particularly after having stated it in 'Crutch 2', that Nash scores more with better players beside him (Something plentiful in supply in Philly) is absolutely laughable and discounts your otherwise talented ability to make an argument.

Yes he has averaged 61 points a season over his 9 year career. But you said it yourself, he plays better with better line mates. Are you trying to insinuate that the COlumbus offense is comparable to the Flyers offense?

Are you trying to say that he would only score 61 on average in Philly?

Is it not reasonable to you, that if he averages 1 PPG with elite players for Team Canada on limited minutes, that he can achieve similar here, with similar or slightly more minutes, with equally talented players in Giroux, Jagr, Briere etc?

We get it, you don't think he is worth the $8 Million he makes right now. Pretty sure we ALL AGREE with that. But to think he would continue to decline on a team with twice the offense and skill while in his prime is simply stupid.

Try and look at it objectively, your inability to see how ridiculous your arguement is clouds your credibility and leads me to believe you just don't like Nash and are ignoring the easy to believe facts.

I'm not saying acquiring Nash is the right thing to do, but he absolutely would put up much better numbers in Philly with the quality of line mates he would have at his disposal, then he has been putting up in Columbus. If you don't believe that then I guess its a good thing you don't work within the game.

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06-12-2012, 12:31 PM
  #283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rainbow Express View Post
Crazy organization. Go ahead and acquire the 8 million dollar 60 point man.

We have 60 point guys who we pay half that and have a garbage defense that is in shambles, but we need Nash.

Again, answering your own questions...such an easy debate! The fact that we ONLY have 60 point wingers is a problem to the org. They want another star with Giroux, so there isn't such separation in talent. Giroux at 93 pts and Hartnell 2nd on the team with 67 is too wide.

But keep thinking he'll be a 60 pt forward...that'll get your far.

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06-12-2012, 12:34 PM
  #284
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
put it this way: how many points do we think Briere would get per year on CBJ?
The exact same amount as he gets here. Don't you know that statistics are 100% transferrable from one team to another and from one line to another etc??? He would also score the same in SEL, KHL, and AHL. And high school. And for the 1986 Oilers, and for the 1992 Sharks. STATS MEAN EVERYTHING AND NOTHING ELSE ADDS TO OR NEGATES THEM.

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06-12-2012, 12:38 PM
  #285
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Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
...and what is JVR's guaranteed production? The future production of "2012 20th overall selection"?

If the Flyers are convinced that JVR will never be more than a decent second line winger, then it really isn't a difficult decision to trade him (as the centerpiece, not a throw-in) for Nash, who, while overpaid, is a bonafide top-line winger.

I think most of us still cling to the flashes of brilliance by JVR and hold hope for steadier production, but I'm beginning to wonder if a critical mass in the Flyers front office holds a different view.
ive never gauranteed anything with JVR. That is Shafer's job. I just am not crazy about trading for a guy making almost 8 million when this team has other needs.
I get the frustration with JVR. Its been frustrating so far. I have always been one of his biggest supporters and even I cant justify the new contract he got.
Fixing the defense should be the #1 priority with this team. Whether thats siging Suter, trading for Weber or whatever it is.
Do we have a number 1 guy right now? yeah I know Timonen is, but we have seen whats gone on the last 2 seasons at least. Hes been great for the Flyers but he has little left in the tank at the end of the season.
getting a defensive minded forward or 2 for the bottom 6 is a must as well.

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06-12-2012, 12:39 PM
  #286
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
The exact same amount as he gets here. Don't you know that statistics are 100% transferrable from one team to another and from one line to another etc??? He would also score the same in SEL, KHL, and AHL. And high school. And for the 1986 Oilers, and for the 1992 Sharks. STATS MEAN EVERYTHING AND NOTHING ELSE ADDS TO OR NEGATES THEM.
ahhh crap, I totally forgot that! my bad

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06-12-2012, 12:47 PM
  #287
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Scott Hartnell put up ridiculous numbers with Giroux, imagine what Nash can do.

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06-12-2012, 12:56 PM
  #288
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Originally Posted by Schenn Couturier View Post
Scott Hartnell put up ridiculous numbers with Giroux, imagine what Nash can do.
I hear only about 60 pts. Plus he's regressing at 28, so maybe only 40 points. Giroux will score 120, but Nash will only manage 1/3 of that playing next to him while eating all of our cap space.

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06-12-2012, 02:56 PM
  #289
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Originally Posted by Schenn Couturier View Post
Scott Hartnell put up ridiculous numbers with Giroux, imagine what Nash can do.
Scott Hartnell has been the glue to every line he has been on. He also scored 30 next to Lupul and Carter. But Nash couldn't play with Carter OMG. Clearly Nash will put up 100,000,000 points next to G

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06-12-2012, 02:58 PM
  #290
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
Scott Hartnell has been the glue to every line he has been on. He also scored 30 next to Lupul and Carter. But Nash couldn't play with Carter OMG. Clearly Nash will put up 100,000,000 points next to G
That's 1,219,512.195121951 points per game over the course of a season. At that rate of production he would almost be worth his cap hit.


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06-12-2012, 03:05 PM
  #291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
Scott Hartnell has been the glue to every line he has been on. He also scored 30 next to Lupul and Carter. But Nash couldn't play with Carter OMG. Clearly Nash will put up 100,000,000 points next to G
Not to take away from Carter, the guy is good and all, but he is not the type of player Giroux is. Giroux is the type of player that can make other players better. Carter is the type of player that makes himself better. There is nothing wrong with that, but saying that because Nash didn't do better in his 100 shifts with Jeff Carter on the Blue Jackets means he won't do anything with Giroux isn't really a great argument. I'm not saying he'll win the Hart trophy if he comes here, but it isn't far fetched to think he will do better playing on a better team, with better linemates, in a better atmosphere.

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06-12-2012, 03:09 PM
  #292
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
Scott Hartnell has been the glue to every line he has been on. He also scored 30 next to Lupul and Carter. But Nash couldn't play with Carter OMG. Clearly Nash will put up 100,000,000 points next to G
Carter didnt exactly play his 'best' hockey with CBJ

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06-12-2012, 03:11 PM
  #293
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
Scott Hartnell has been the glue to every line he has been on. He also scored 30 next to Lupul and Carter. But Nash couldn't play with Carter OMG. Clearly Nash will put up 100,000,000 points next to G
Putting two snipers on a line like Carter and Nash was bound for failure. It's amazing Howson still has his job from that trade alone.

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06-12-2012, 03:12 PM
  #294
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Trading for Rick would be NASSSHHHTY!

Playing next to Claude, he would be a stud!

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06-12-2012, 04:19 PM
  #295
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Heres the way I see it, if the Flyers acquire Rick Nash its based on the LA building book by giving up a little of the future for big names that can help you win now. LA acquired both Richards and Carter, giving up Schenn, Wayne Train, JJ and a 1st which are all considerable assets. With that being said those two helped them win a cup, despite what was given up. You got to give to get I suppose, maybe Rick Nash at 7.8 is bad but JVR at 4.25 isn't much better. So at the end of the day I won't cry if the Flyers make the trade but its a big risk considering the shakey future on the back end.

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06-12-2012, 04:20 PM
  #296
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Barring injuries, Rick Nash will be a good NHL player until his late 30s. There's no reason to think otherwise. JvR already has injuries marring his career...

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06-12-2012, 04:27 PM
  #297
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I'm for acquiring Rick Nash as long as Couts remains on the team which I'm pretty sure the organization has tagged as untouchable along with G. If we can keep Schenn..all the better.

However, I want the plan to include a decent D man whether it's via the draft or another deal or package deal with Columbus...

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06-12-2012, 04:27 PM
  #298
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Originally Posted by CanadianFlyersFan18 View Post
Heres the way I see it, if the Flyers acquire Rick Nash its based on the LA building book by giving up a little of the future for big names that can help you win now. LA acquired both Richards and Carter, giving up Schenn, Wayne Train, JJ and a 1st which are all considerable assets. With that being said those two helped them win a cup, despite what was given up. You got to give to get I suppose, maybe Rick Nash at 7.8 is bad but JVR at 4.25 isn't much better. So at the end of the day I won't cry if the Flyers make the trade but its a big risk considering the shakey future on the back end.
You also have to remember, Nash would likely be the replacement for Hartnell. If we get Nash, I doubt we re sign hartnell, and Nash is better and just over 2 years younger.

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06-12-2012, 04:31 PM
  #299
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You also have to remember, Nash would likely be the replacement for Hartnell. If we get Nash, I doubt we re sign hartnell, and Nash is better and just over 2 years younger.
That really depends. I imagine JVR is going the other way in the trade, So we've added a 3 million cap hit, and I don't see Jagr with this team after next season. Realistically Hartnell can be resigned, at the expensive of say JVR and Jagr. Just my two cents. If you have the ability to make your team better you do it.. so their lyes the question, does Rick Nash make this team better?

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06-12-2012, 04:51 PM
  #300
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That really depends. I imagine JVR is going the other way in the trade, So we've added a 3 million cap hit, and I don't see Jagr with this team after next season. Realistically Hartnell can be resigned, at the expensive of say JVR and Jagr. Just my two cents. If you have the ability to make your team better you do it.. so their lyes the question, does Rick Nash make this team better?
It makes the top line absolutely disgusting so I think it would be safe to say that the teams GPG would increase. I am a big JVR guy myself and I wouldn't want him wasted on a Luke Schenn type of deal but if you have a chance to get Nash for a reasonable price it really makes you consider it. He has been hampered by injuries already in his young career where Nash has remained relatively healthy only missing significant time in one season. Hes still a young guy (actually couldn't believe he was only 27 when I looked it up) and has plenty of years left in him. My issue isn't moving JVR so much as what else they want. Couturier to me is off limits and I would like to see Schenn play a full season or two without injuries before moving him. I'm guessing they are still interested in Bob like they were at the deadline and honestly hes probably gone soon anyway with Bryz's contract and being a FA after this year. I guess it depends on how hard Nash wants out of Columbus which obviously he does, and what the Jackets are willing to take to shed the cap hit and start over.

Bottom line is we are basically seeing the same team as last year minus one or two blueliners. Nash > JVR or anyone else that would be traded so I would argue it makes the team leaps and bounds betting talent wise. One of the better PP units in the NHL one could hope.


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