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The Official Jordan Staal Wacky Speculation Thread IV

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Old
06-13-2012, 11:26 AM
  #101
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
You don't think he'll detract too much from Martin's value?

QUESTION: IF you could keep Staal long term, give him a little more in terms of offensive talent (and have him share instead of monopolize the defensive situation assignments with Sid and Geno) AND in the process give Sid and Geno both a pair of good wingers (not both all starts but comparable to what Geno had this year), then would you be willing not only to move Martin and TK BUT also willing to move Nisky and one of Orpik or Michalek? It would mean maybe signing a guy like Bryan Allen, relying on kids on defense, and waiting until the deadline to make impact moves to upgrade the defense. BUT, if that meant keeping Staal and setting up Sid and Geno properly and Staal in a situation that gives him more of an offensive role, is it worth it? Is it the right thing to do?
The only thing I disagree with there is getting rid of Nisky. He'll probably get a raise, but even then you're still getting a pretty good defenseman at a friendly price. He was hurt during the playoffs, and still showed the most balls while playing better than practically anyone else.

Like I said previously: You do not get rid of Staal unless it's for massive overpayment. Even if he busts your cap, and even if signing him makes you weaker in other areas, you tread water until your younger (and more importantly) cheaper players come into their own, or the cap continues to trend upwards. Sure, we may be cap strapped for a couple of years, but long term contracts to the big 3 will look like bargains 3 or 4 years from now.

It's about time Shero shows some faith in HIS draft choices and HIS system:

Letang-Orpik
Michalek-Nisky
Despres-Strait
Engelland

I swear if Paul Martin is still on this roster come October and EITHER of Nisky or Strait are in another uniform, I'm going to lose my ****ing mind.

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Old
06-13-2012, 11:50 AM
  #102
Le Magnifique 66
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
I haven't read the threads, but it's not delusional to think that we would need to add something in a Staal for Skinner swap. We may be able to get it straight up due to Staal's experience and whatnot, but we aren't getting the extra coming back our way I'm pretty sure.
Most of them wouldn't make the deal 1-1 and all you keep reading is how Staal is nothing but a 3rd liner and that's what pisses me off the most. If Staal played with hi brother, i'm pretty sure he'd have better numbers than Skinner

And for a guy that's nothing but a 3rd liner, they sure as hell are interested

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Old
06-13-2012, 11:51 AM
  #103
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It's been more than Canes fans. Some just don't understand Shero's position. He won't deal Staal for fair value (pointless) and won't be undersold (obviously). It will take overpayment to get Staal, and some don't want to do that.
And that's fine, I just get upset when I read he's nothing but a 3rd liner yet they want him badly or they make it seem like if Jordan wants to play in Carolina

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06-13-2012, 12:16 PM
  #104
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I wouldn't trade Skinner for Staal straight up either. It's not that they aren't of equal value (not commenting on it either way), it's just that, for Carolina, they are trying to gain an impact player, not swap one for another.

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Old
06-13-2012, 12:48 PM
  #105
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If Staal gets traded, I'll cry...I mean I'm not even kidding..I think that he is the heart and soul of our team. If you look in his eyes (specially in the playoffs) you see pure determination. I think that we are just fine offensivley - Malkin, Crosby, Neal, Staal and Kunitz. I don't think that we need to upgrade anywhere - if that means, trading Staal.

If we need to gain cap space, we just need to dump or trade one or even two of Martin, Michalek and or Orpik.

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Old
06-13-2012, 12:51 PM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
I wouldn't trade Skinner for Staal straight up either. It's not that they aren't of equal value (not commenting on it either way), it's just that, for Carolina, they are trying to gain an impact player, not swap one for another.
If they won't give away an impact player, that's an easy no deal then, IMO..we should not rebulid now.

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Old
06-13-2012, 01:18 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
The only thing I disagree with there is getting rid of Nisky. He'll probably get a raise, but even then you're still getting a pretty good defenseman at a friendly price. He was hurt during the playoffs, and still showed the most balls while playing better than practically anyone else.

Like I said previously:You do not get rid of Staal unless it's for massive overpayment. Even if he busts your cap, and even if signing him makes you weaker in other areas, you tread water until your younger (and more importantly) cheaper players come into their own, or the cap continues to trend upwards. Sure, we may be cap strapped for a couple of years, but long term contracts to the big 3 will look like bargains 3 or 4 years from now.

It's about time Shero shows some faith in HIS draft choices and HIS system:

Letang-Orpik
Michalek-Nisky
Despres-Strait
Engelland

I swear if Paul Martin is still on this roster come October and EITHER of Nisky or Strait are in another uniform, I'm going to lose my ****ing mind.
I couldn't agree more, but it is a very realistic possibility. Especially with Shero being the passive GM that he is.


Last edited by Dovahkiin: 06-13-2012 at 01:26 PM.
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Old
06-13-2012, 01:25 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Lemieuxfan View Post
If they won't give away an impact player, that's an easy no deal then, IMO..we should not rebulid now.
We aren't getting many equal players of Staal's caliber in a 1 for 1 swap. And certainly not Carolina. The biggest chip in that trade is Sutter and the 8th overall. You lose Staal but gain a young 3rd line center that is suited for the role and has upside plus a top 10 pick that can be an impact player down the line. There will be a 3rd piece to the deal as well.

Anyway, the main point is that you don't trade Staal because you want to. You trade him if he wants a bigger role and dollar elsewhere. So yeah, we would all love to see us keeping him or getting a massive overpayment, but it may not be that simple. Regardless, IF we trade Staal, I think the package will be solid and keep us competitive in the near term along with pieces to build the future.

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Old
06-13-2012, 01:58 PM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
I wouldn't trade Skinner for Staal straight up either. It's not that they aren't of equal value (not commenting on it either way), it's just that, for Carolina, they are trying to gain an impact player, not swap one for another.
I agree. I'm all for putting the main board idiots in their place WRT to Staal, but Jeff Skinner has major upside aside from already proving himself to be a very talented offensive player. On this team only Sid and Malkin would be more skilled. He's better than Neal on account of equally good goal scoring skills, but much better skating and puck-handling skills. Would make no sense for them to trade him to anyone. If they make a trade for Staal it's almost guaranteed that the two biggest pieces coming back would be Sutter and their #8 Draft Pick. If we're lucky they might add a guy like McBain or Ruutu into the mix in exchange for one of our picks.

We're not getting Jeff Skinner. Carolina isn't run by a bunch of Rhesus monkies.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dovahkiin View Post
I couldn't agree more, but it is a very realistic possibility. Especially with Shero being the passive GM that he is.


This flies in the face of everything Shero has done. Getting Sid, Geno, Staal, Letang, Fleury, Orpik under their current contracts: not passive. Going after Hossa: not passive. Trading for Hamhuis' rights: not passive. Going out and getting Martin and Michalek (whether it works out in hindsight or not): not passive. Signing Vokoun: not passive.

Learn what the word means before you use it.

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Old
06-13-2012, 02:03 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
I agree. I'm all for putting the main board idiots in their place WRT to Staal, but Jeff Skinner has major upside aside from already proving himself to be a very talented offensive player. Would make no sense for them to trade him to anyone. If they make a trade for Staal it's almost guaranteed that the two biggest pieces coming back would be Sutter and their #8 Draft Pick. If we're lucky they might add a guy like McBain or Ruutu into the mix in exchange for one of our picks.

We're not getting Jeff Skinner. Carolina isn't run by a bunch of Rhesus monkies.






This flies in the face of everything Shero has done. Getting Sid, Geno, Staal, Letang, Fleury, Orpik under their current contracts: not passive. Going after Hossa: not passive. Trading for Hamhuis' rights: not passive. Going out and getting Martin and Michalek (whether it works out in hindsight or not): not passive. Signing Vokoun: not passive.

Learn what the word means before you use it.
I was more using it in they way that. Shero is not quick respond, to such needs(but thats OT). Honestly i see Shero waiting untill the deadline to unload Martin. I want Martin gone. That being said, he had a great year the year before last, that is why Shero will probably refrain from tradeing him.

Edit: Shero is one of the rare GM's that see the "good" or talent within players, this has been evident by picking up Adams when he was on waivers, Cal O'reilly as well, and all the vet signing over the years. Shero doesn't concern himself with the "What have you done for me lately" concept, but sometimes i wish Shero would be harder on players. Ergo some Montreal GM's, just not quite as hard as the Montreal GM's.


Last edited by Dovahkiin: 06-13-2012 at 02:12 PM.
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Old
06-13-2012, 02:09 PM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dovahkiin View Post
Shero is not quick respond, to such needs(but thats OT). Honestly i see Shero waiting untill the deadline to unload Martin. I want Martin gone. That being said, he had a great year the year before last, that is why Shero will probably refrain from tradeing him.
Fans are impatient. A good GM does not unload players at the first sign of trouble, or, if he feels he can get better value in a trade by waiting a while. He may not trade Martin until 2013 (Jan-Mar timeframe), but frankly as long as he's replaced by next year's playoffs, I don't care. Just get him out of here and get someone with more physical strength and presence in there by March. He's not the worst player ever but he's a bad fit for this team in terms of his size and strength.

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Old
06-13-2012, 02:12 PM
  #112
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If Martin gets traded it is because of cap space, because he's not a great fit here and because we can potentially replace him from within. He is NOT being traded because he's a bad hockey player.

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Old
06-13-2012, 02:13 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
Fans are impatient. A good GM does not unload players at the first sign of trouble, or, if he feels he can get better value in a trade by waiting a while. He may not trade Martin until 2013 (Jan-Mar timeframe), but frankly as long as he's replaced by next year's playoffs, I don't care. Just get him out of here and get someone with more physical strength and presence in there by March. He's not the worst player ever but he's a bad fit for this team in terms of his size and strength.
We are basically arguing over who agree's with each other more.

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Old
06-13-2012, 02:27 PM
  #114
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If Martin gets traded it is because of cap space, because he's not a great fit here and because we can potentially replace him from within. He is NOT being traded because he's a bad hockey player.
1000x this. A year ago he's in the discussion for top 20 overall defensemen in the league.

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06-13-2012, 02:28 PM
  #115
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While I like Skinner, I hate the idea of trading Staal for him. Look at the division next year. Lost of games against bigger and faster teams than the Pens. Skinner doesn't help with either issue.

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Old
06-13-2012, 03:21 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Le Magnifique 66 View Post
And that's fine, I just get upset when I read he's nothing but a 3rd liner yet they want him badly or they make it seem like if Jordan wants to play in Carolina
They are either ************ his value or accepting it and then throwing a hissy fit. It's ridiculous.

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06-13-2012, 05:00 PM
  #117
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Reasons to keep Staal(just my opinion):

1. All around player(can play every situation)
2. Big body
3. 3C does work, look at the 90's Red Wings Teams(Kozlov or some other up and comer always backed Fedorov and Yzerman)
4. Insurance, just in case a C goes down(Crosby or Malkin) he can up his game to fill in the #2 role.
5. He's still young

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Old
06-13-2012, 05:19 PM
  #118
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Can anyone give me a scouting report on Jordan Staal? Pros and cons? Speed, shot, vision, hockey sense, etc.

I don't get to see a ton of Penguins games. Not having NBCSports as part of my cable package hurts.

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06-13-2012, 05:39 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Halak Ness Monster View Post
Can anyone give me a scouting report on Jordan Staal? Pros and cons? Speed, shot, vision, hockey sense, etc.

I don't get to see a ton of Penguins games. Not having NBCSports as part of my cable package hurts.
Speed: Has good top speed once he gets going but isn't very quick in the first few strides.

Shot: He has a good shot that seems to still be improving. It's inconsistent. He can absolutely hammer a shot past a goalie but also shoots a lot of muffins too. He uses a larger stick and rarely gets off a slapper. His best shots are snap shots and he has a pretty good one-timer when he gets the chance to use it.

Vision: Average at best.

Hockey sense: Hard to judge. I do think he's a smart player because he isn't the most highly skilled guy out there and still finds a way to be very productive.

Hands: Not very good.

Defense: He almost always plays well defensively and can play Selke caliber defense at times.

Overall offense: I'd say he's most effective offensively when he plays with a shooters mentality. He's no Joe Thornton as a playmaker. He needs to shoot most of the time and mix it up by barging his way to the net with some of his good power-forward type of moves that he has. It's hard to describe those moves but he has little stutter step and hesitation type of moves where he'll change speeds, lean into the defender and barge his way to the net.

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Old
06-13-2012, 05:40 PM
  #120
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Old
06-13-2012, 05:45 PM
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Halak Ness Monster View Post
Can anyone give me a scouting report on Jordan Staal? Pros and cons? Speed, shot, vision, hockey sense, etc.

I don't get to see a ton of Penguins games. Not having NBCSports as part of my cable package hurts.
I'll do my best

Size - he can be an absolute beast along the boards and on the cycle.
Skating - has a nice long stride
Speed - Can really fly when he gets up to speed
Acceleration - doesn't have the quickest first step
Shot- Heavy wrist shot which looked better this season, release could be quicker. Decent one-timer, heavy slapshot but he rarely uses it.
Pass - Not a guy who'll thread the needle but can makes some nice passes usually after he's worn a guy by controlling the puck along the boards.
Hockey Sense - Elite defensive and showed improvement with his offensive decision making.
Hands - Fairly good at potting pucks in close, his one on one skills looked better but still room to improve.
Vision - tends to play a simple game so It's hard to judge his vision.
Hitting - puts his body to good use but rarely crushes guys, I think he needs to get lower when he hits to lower his centre of gravity.
PK - Excellent PK guy, good stick and knows when to be aggressive and when to be passive. A threat short handed to.
PP - Very much a working progress on the PP, He's ideally the guy in front of the net or the spare forward. I don't see a future for him on the half board (not on a top unit at least)
Face-offs - Got to 51% and hopefully can build on that.
Leadership - Alternates an A with Orpik, seems like he's a good guy in the room.

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Old
06-13-2012, 06:30 PM
  #122
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I think Jordans best avenue for shots is the high slot. High amount of goals scored there.

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06-13-2012, 06:59 PM
  #123
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i like staal, but i think it seems logical to be open to the possibility of trading him.

i think he's overrated in some ways (shut-down ability, potential for being a playmaker) but the fact that he continually shows up in the playoffs when others don't makes me reluctant to trade him.

recently pens have had far too many passengers in the postseason and staal is the opposite of that.

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Old
06-13-2012, 08:22 PM
  #124
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Quote:
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We are basically arguing over who agree's with each other more.
You definitely agree with me more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by #66 View Post
While I like Skinner, I hate the idea of trading Staal for him. Look at the division next year. Lost of games against bigger and faster teams than the Pens. Skinner doesn't help with either issue.
The crux is that Skinner is one of those guys with enough skills and smarts that he doesn't have to be big to be effective against big players. There are guys on this team though (Martin, Kennedy) who are not skilled enough to have it make up for their lack of size; hence at those skills levels we need someone bigger in their spots. Someone less easy to move off the puck. Skinner is like a Seguin type player; he's so smart and quick with the puck (and skilled) that he makes other players react to him, regardless of their size. And like Seguin he can play W or C equally well.

In any case don't worry because no one is trading anyone for Jeff Skinner. He's going to be in Carolina for a while whether we trade Staal there or not. Also he makes less than $1M next year. So in terms of signability looking ahead there is no ****ing way Carolina is trading that guy.

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06-13-2012, 08:29 PM
  #125
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Skinner's not a Centre at the NHL level.

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