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Canucks file for cut down arbitration with Raymond

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Old
06-13-2012, 10:38 PM
  #51
GoodbyeLuongo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muffin View Post
MG really doesn't treat his players that well does he. The whole Hodgson thing first, then Kesler, now he's doing this just to save like 400k?
Hodgson wanted a trade because he would be playing 3rd line under Kesler and Henrik for a while. MG didn't do anything

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Old
06-13-2012, 10:43 PM
  #52
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I can't see how this is a good thing. Normal arbitration can cause tension between a player and GM, but to fight for a lower QO? I don't know how it could be anything but insulting for Raymond to hear Gillis plead his case.

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06-13-2012, 10:49 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafidelity View Post
I can't see how this is a good thing. Normal arbitration can cause tension between a player and GM, but to fight for a lower QO? I don't know how it could be anything but insulting for Raymond to hear Gillis plead his case.
Raymond was in the position where it was 50/50 that he'd even be kept on the team. After his injury he had a bad year and a lot of people thought he'd simply be gone. He was a pretty frustrating player to watch.

At 2.6 or whatever he was at, he probably wouldn't be qualified- its that close of a call. He doesn't have a single bargaining chip in his favour and probably knew he'd either be let go or brought back at a reduce price. If he was let go by the Canucks, he could very well have ended up with less than 2.2m.

All this does is give Raymond a short term contract and subsequent chance to earn his first UFA contract.

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Old
06-13-2012, 10:59 PM
  #54
kdb209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taelin View Post
Can anyone explain what a "cut down" abitration is?
All it is is a team elected arbitration in lieu of a QO for players who earned > $1.5M in Salary the previous year.

The salary number the team submits in arbitration may be as low as 85% of the players previous salary (well, technically they can submit any number they want, but the arbiter can award no salary less than that 85% number). Of course, that is only the floor that the arbiter can award - he is free to award any higher number based on the player's/agent's submissions.

C&P from the BoH thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kdb209
AKA - team elected arbitration in lieu of a QO for players earning >$1.5M.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CBA Article 12.3
12.3 Eligibility for Club-Elected Salary Arbitration. Subject to subsections (c) and
(d) below and the eligibility requirements set forth in Article 12.1, a Club will have the
right to elect to take a Player to salary arbitration under the following conditions:
(a) Club-Elected Salary Arbitration For Players With Paragraph 1 NHL
Salaries plus Signing, Roster, and Reporting Bonuses Greater Than $1,500,000 In The
Prior League Year.
(i) If a Player who is otherwise eligible to receive a Qualifying Offer
and become a Group 2 Restricted Free Agent had a Paragraph 1
NHL Salary plus Signing, Roster and Reporting Bonuses in excess
of $1,500,000 in the aggregate in the final League Year of his most
recent SPC, a Club may elect to file for salary arbitration to
determine the Player's Paragraph 1 Salary for the upcoming
League Year in lieu of making a Qualifying Offer to such Player.

(ii) In any salary arbitration that takes place pursuant to this Section
12.3(a), the Salary Arbitrator may not award the Player a
Paragraph 1 Salary that is less than eighty-five (85) percent of the
aggregate sum of Player's Paragraph 1 Salary plus Signing,
Reporting and Roster Bonuses in the final League Year of his most
recent SPC.
(b) Club-Elected Salary Arbitration For Players Who Receive Qualifying
Offers.
(i) If a Group 2 Restricted Free Agent has not accepted his Club's
Qualifying Offer, nor filed a request for Player-elected salary
arbitration in accordance with Section 12.2 above, the Club may
elect to file for salary arbitration to determine that Player's
Paragraph 1 Salary for that League Year.

(ii) If a Club elects salary arbitration in accordance with this
subsection, the Club's offer in salary arbitration must be equal to or
higher than the Player's aggregate Paragraph 1 Salary plus Signing,
Reporting and Roster Bonuses in the final League Year of the
Player's SPC.

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Old
06-13-2012, 11:14 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafidelity View Post
I can't see how this is a good thing. Normal arbitration can cause tension between a player and GM, but to fight for a lower QO? I don't know how it could be anything but insulting for Raymond to hear Gillis plead his case.
Raymond took the team to arbitration to get that contract, I don't know why it would be a big deal. Gillis is a former player agent, he knows how to make his case without hurting anyones feelings.

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Old
06-13-2012, 11:32 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by birddog View Post
One word - bandwagon.

Raymond had a serious back injury and is still getting into form. Might not but it'll be interesting to see if he returns to form this year.
You do realize he was equally as poor the year before, and when he returned the first two months back played great, then became a floater and did nothing.

His back injury has disguised his subpar play. I guess its also an excuse for his 2010-2011 season numbers before the back injury even occurred.

I am sure for everyone criticizing the canucks there is a mason raymond on your team you want gone, its no different here. He gets huge minutes on our first or second line that was generally undeserved based on his play.

Our 3rd line our coach wants a checking line and to be physical, and hes not good enough to be a top 6 forward...dont know where he even fits.


But on global news tonight apperantly said he wants to go to winnipeg, so maybe we can work out a trade if people think were under valuing him.

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Old
06-14-2012, 01:10 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Muffin View Post
All bonuses count towards a player's cap hit.
I mean the kind of bonus like "under table money".

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Old
06-14-2012, 01:15 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by GreatSaveLuongo View Post
I mean the kind of bonus like "under table money".
Oh, you mean a flagrant violation of the CBA that could land the team in all kinds of trouble?

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Old
06-14-2012, 01:20 AM
  #59
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Can't believe people are saying Gillis is hard on players.

He traded O'Brien and Hordichuk to Nashville to keep them in the NHL rather than waiving them, as well as Sturm to Florida.

He provides top quality chefs to cook players healthy meals and assists new players with places to stay and such (e.g. Kassian trade).

He traded Hodgson because Hodgson wanted to be traded. How is that bad? What he said afterwards could be entirely true, and both sides have reason to be frustrated with how that scenario went down.

Not to mention he used to be a very successful agent and knows how to cater to player's needs. The posters that are stating Gillis treats players badly are just grasping at straws.

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Old
06-14-2012, 01:23 AM
  #60
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I'm glad that some people on here aren't the GM of my team or actually anyone with any power in any business that I frequent. This is business; you don't give up making the best quality product because you wanna be someone's best friend. If he can get $400,000 of extra space then why wouldn't he do it? He's saying, "that's what you're worth based on your output," -- the same as any boss would do.

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Old
06-14-2012, 01:26 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Co Ho View Post
Can't believe people are saying Gillis is hard on players.

He traded O'Brien and Hordichuk to Nashville to keep them in the NHL rather than waiving them, as well as Sturm to Florida.

He provides top quality chefs to cook players healthy meals and assists new players with places to stay and such (e.g. Kassian trade).

He traded Hodgson because Hodgson wanted to be traded. How is that bad? What he said afterwards could be entirely true, and both sides have reason to be frustrated with how that scenario went down.

Not to mention he used to be a very successful agent and knows how to cater to player's needs. The posters that are stating Gillis treats players badly are just grasping at straws.
Don't forget them sleep experts.

Too many rag on raymond cause, in Vancouver, the thought was he'd develop into a perennial 20-25 goal scorer who would drive the net with reckless abandon and be a consistent, hard to play against kinda guy cause of the speed (he kinda showed that in the 25-goal season). But he hasn't panned out that way, so now we're all pissed (all the time) cause he'll never really live up to that belief. Still say he'd be successful on a weaker team where he'd get regular top6 minutes and PP time...but that ain't happening here.


Last edited by A Sequel to Failure: 06-14-2012 at 01:34 AM.
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Old
06-14-2012, 01:28 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Orca Smash View Post
You do realize he was equally as poor the year before, and when he returned the first two months back played great, then became a floater and did nothing.

His back injury has disguised his subpar play. I guess its also an excuse for his 2010-2011 season numbers before the back injury even occurred.

I am sure for everyone criticizing the canucks there is a mason raymond on your team you want gone, its no different here. He gets huge minutes on our first or second line that was generally undeserved based on his play.

Our 3rd line our coach wants a checking line and to be physical, and hes not good enough to be a top 6 forward...dont know where he even fits.


But on global news tonight apperantly said he wants to go to winnipeg, so maybe we can work out a trade if people think were under valuing him.
Actually, Raymond's production was not sub-par or even bad in 2010-11, relatively speaking. In 09-10, when he put up 53pts, he only had 35EV points, and had 18PP points. That was the year that the 2nd PP unit still featured Kesler on it. In 10-11, he was on pace for 39EV points, 7PP points and 46pts. The 2nd PP unit that year was quite weak because Kesler moved to the 1st unit, leaving the 2nd unit without a center...or much talent as a whole.

Raymond is what he is; a good two-way player that probably doesn't have enough talent to hold down a top six spot in a perfect world. He is quite a bit more productive on the PP because of his strength and balance issues, and will contribute to the PK because of his speed and tenacity.

I would bet that many teams would take him in an instant for 2.5M, given how little that gets you nowadays. He doesn't deserve all the flack he's gotten from fans, but it's not like he's a great or indispensable player either.

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Old
06-14-2012, 01:51 AM
  #63
Leafs87
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[QUOTE=chasespace;50882595]I didn't know you could file to cut down a players

Another amazing move by mr gillis. Also some people are saying that vancouver may do all this but still attract quality ufa's. Not to be stupid or any thing but who are these ufa's ? Because hamhuis took a hometown discount, and besides that i cant think of a different "quality" ufa of importance recently to go to vancouver.


The sturm trade after 12 games

Luongo being run out of town after the huge deal

Kesler being called out

Almost tellimg hodgson hes faking a back injury

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Old
06-14-2012, 01:57 AM
  #64
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Ah, hell with it.

Never mind.

We suck, MG is Satan, FAs will never sign here, blah blah blah.

There, happy?

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Old
06-14-2012, 02:11 AM
  #65
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[QUOTE=Leafs87;50897945]
Quote:
Originally Posted by chasespace View Post
I didn't know you could file to cut down a players

Another amazing move by mr gillis. Also some people are saying that vancouver may do all this but still attract quality ufa's. Not to be stupid or any thing but who are these ufa's ? Because hamhuis took a hometown discount, and besides that i cant think of a different "quality" ufa of importance recently to go to vancouver.


The sturm trade after 12 games

Luongo being run out of town after the huge deal

Kesler being called out

Almost tellimg hodgson hes faking a back injury
Found guilty of tampering charges against the Sedins
Said Wilson would not be fired and fired him a few days later
Schenn being called out
Kadri being called out
Monster being called out
Kessel being called out despite being the best player on your team at the time

See, I can do it too.

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Old
06-14-2012, 03:51 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by ProstheticConscience View Post
Ah, hell with it.

Never mind.

We suck, MG is Satan, FAs will never sign here, blah blah blah.

There, happy?
Forgot that you'll never win anything important as a team

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Old
06-14-2012, 03:57 AM
  #67
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Wasn't even Gillis who suggested making this call. But of course 90% of the boards would go ahead and assume it was when it was really the Capologist (Gilman) of the team who found this "loop hole".

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Old
06-14-2012, 04:29 AM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winroba View Post
For a cap team, $400k is a lot. I don't think this has anything to do with treating his players poorly. If Raymond wants to stay in Vancouver he will have to either start performing to his cap hit, or take less money so that more talent can be injected into the lineup.

Kesler, Sedins, Burrows, Bieksa, Hamhuis, Luongo, Hansen, Salo, Malhotra, Lapierre and Higgins all took lower amounts of money to stay with the team and I'd hope that Raymond is open to doing the same.
Luongo didn't take lower amounts... his first few years he's getting over 30M, it just drops towards the end of his career like it would anyways

Salo has never played a full season in his career.. nuff said

Malhotra getting 2.5 for a 4th line centre is wacked... that is no bargain

Lappy and Higgins were bouncing around teams with poor production, and I might be wrong, but I'm not even sure we actually re-signed them..

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Old
06-14-2012, 08:05 AM
  #69
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I've never heard of this. I assume this is the first time it's ever been utilized?

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Old
06-14-2012, 08:09 AM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Co Ho View Post
Can't believe people are saying Gillis is hard on players.

He traded O'Brien and Hordichuk to Nashville to keep them in the NHL rather than waiving them, as well as Sturm to Florida.

He provides top quality chefs to cook players healthy meals and assists new players with places to stay and such (e.g. Kassian trade).

He traded Hodgson because Hodgson wanted to be traded. How is that bad? What he said afterwards could be entirely true, and both sides have reason to be frustrated with how that scenario went down.

Not to mention he used to be a very successful agent and knows how to cater to player's needs. The posters that are stating Gillis treats players badly are just grasping at straws.
Additional examples are trading Jeff Cowan instead of waiving him, letting Darryl Sydor play in Dallas (where he has family) instead of Winnipeg in the AHL when he was traded to Vancouver as part of the Ehrhoff deal.

Examples of him putting his job before the person are limited to the Hodgson situation and trading long-time client Matthieu Schneider when he wasn't working out in Vancouver.

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Old
06-14-2012, 09:25 AM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodbyeLuongo View Post
Hodgson wanted a trade because he would be playing 3rd line under Kesler and Henrik for a while. MG didn't do anything
Talking about MG calling him out after he's already in Buffalo.

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Old
06-14-2012, 09:30 AM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TOML View Post
Maybe Raymond should try to claim the 15% in losses from Boychuk.

Seriously, if Moore gets to sue Bertuzzi for lost wages, doesn't that technically open the door for more lawsuits?

Without that injury, this thread doesn't exist. Yet it's the Canucks organization being painted as a bad, bad, 'cutdown' type franchise.

Bah. Whatever gets more attention up here i guess. LONG off-season coming. A LOT of things going to be put forward to talk about with no actual hockey. Cheers.


TOML
Great post.

Quote:
I've never heard of this. I assume this is the first time it's ever been utilized?
I believe so. But I think the Canucks kind of used it as leverage against Kesler in 2007 when they signed him below his QO.

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Old
06-14-2012, 09:41 AM
  #73
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I don't get why people are saying that Gillis is being hard on the Canuck players. There is a reason that Vancouver has remained competitive for so many years and that is because not only does the demand of winning from the fans remain very high but it is also throughout the organization from players and up.

Malhotra said that he had offers from other teams with more money but really fell for the commitment and dedication that Mike Gillis put in into getting to know what kind off a character Malhotra is. Hamhuis was the same story. They both liked the fact that they were told that they will have to do community work if they want to play for the Canucks. The Canucks just don't want to spend money on questionable character and if somebody is not performing up to the teams, fans or the other players expectations they will know about it. They are big boys and they should be able to handle it. Hodgson couldn't so he was shipped out.

Are we still in Junior High or something?

Mike Gillis is top 5 GM in the league. Smart move, Raymond is a Vancouver product and he knows out of anyone in the world that he is not performing like he should. He put up 50+ points two years ago and only had 20 points this year. It will be interesting to see what he can bring after a full summer of work outs.

rant over.

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Old
06-14-2012, 10:36 AM
  #74
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What a nice way of saying.....'We don't want you'..

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Old
06-14-2012, 10:47 AM
  #75
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Quote:
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What a nice way of saying.....'We don't want you'..
The evil Canucks empire strikes again!

I hope we win the abitration, or Raymond agrees to an even lower contract...

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