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Will the Flyers win the Cup in the next 5 years?

View Poll Results: Yes or No
NO 37 41.57%
YES 52 58.43%
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Old
06-13-2012, 08:04 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by 35NW8ING View Post
EXACTLY. And until we start playing defense like 99% of the Cup winners in recent memory, we won't win a cup. Pond Hockey sells tickets and jerseys, but look no further than most every playoff year, low and behold, teams playing defense first systems are much tougher outs and almost always hoisting the cup. Defense is a bad word around these parts.

The prosecution rests.
Look at all the defesive minded teams that don't hoist the cup, and struggle to make it past the early rounds of the playoffs because they can't score.

The LA Kings were a team committed to defense, with an outstanding goalie, and they sucked for the better part of the year. What changed? Oh Mike Richards got healthy, and they traded for Jeff Carter. 2 players that yes are good defensively, but can also ****ing score.

You keep spouting off about defense and don't realize that teams that can't score...New York Rangers...don't win the cup. Playing a defense oriented system does you no good if you can't score. And bringing someone in to run a defensive system with the players on this roster, who can't play defense, isn't going to help.

But no, I'm sorry. You're right. It's the strict defensive teams that win. That's why everywhere Hitch goes he wins a cup. That's why the Rangers are so damn close every year, and why the recent Devils teams did better before they adopted that aggressive forecheck, and why St. Louis was such a tough out. Also why 99% of the teams that have won the cup in recent memory were all defense first, except Carolina....and Pitt....and Chicago. So I guess it's more like 57% of the teams, but still you're right.

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06-13-2012, 08:27 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
Look at all the defesive minded teams that don't hoist the cup, and struggle to make it past the early rounds of the playoffs because they can't score.

The LA Kings were a team committed to defense, with an outstanding goalie, and they sucked for the better part of the year. What changed? Oh Mike Richards got healthy, and they traded for Jeff Carter. 2 players that yes are good defensively, but can also ****ing score.

You keep spouting off about defense and don't realize that teams that can't score...New York Rangers...don't win the cup. Playing a defense oriented system does you no good if you can't score. And bringing someone in to run a defensive system with the players on this roster, who can't play defense, isn't going to help.

But no, I'm sorry. You're right. It's the strict defensive teams that win. That's why everywhere Hitch goes he wins a cup. That's why the Rangers are so damn close every year, and why the recent Devils teams did better before they adopted that aggressive forecheck, and why St. Louis was such a tough out. Also why 99% of the teams that have won the cup in recent memory were all defense first, except Carolina....and Pitt....and Chicago. So I guess it's more like 57% of the teams, but still you're right.
Pitt changed coaches in Feb of their cup year, played a defense first system after that, and sprung a left wing lock on their playoff opponents in April. Chicago was the 5th best defensive team in the league in 09-10.

"Strict defense" is not the same as defense first. You're confusing the two. You can keep clinging to the aberration that happened in Carolina but that's fantasy island.

Where reality resides, pond hockey doesn't win cups.

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06-13-2012, 08:29 AM
  #28
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If the very next thread wasn't about Jagr being resigned, then maybe.

Until this team is constructed in a logical manner, I'm hopeful but not optimistic at all.

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06-13-2012, 08:48 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by 35NW8ING View Post
Pitt changed coaches in Feb of their cup year, played a defense first system after that, and sprung a left wing lock on their playoff opponents in April. Chicago was the 5th best defensive team in the league in 09-10.

"Strict defense" is not the same as defense first. You're confusing the two. You can keep clinging to the aberration that happened in Carolina but that's fantasy island.

Where reality resides, pond hockey doesn't win cups.
The left wing lock...a system similar to what the Flyers use.

Anyway, it's also funny that the year following that coaching change to a defense oriented system Pitt allowed more goals than the previous year, and that last year they were mediocre again. So one year out of the 3 they were solid defensively. That year they lost in the 1st round.

You're also confusing not getting scored on with playing defense first. If you are going to sit there and tell me that the Chicago Blackhawks were a defense first team then you have no idea what the hell you're talking about. They didn't allow goals because they had an overwhelming offense. The same way Detroit doesn't allow goals because they continuously possess the puck in the offensive zone. That's not defense dude, that's the "the best defense is a good offense."

You can keep clinging to the fact that you know what wins championships when the real fact is you have no frigging clue. No one knows what wins championships because its a random combination of ever changing factors. Being good, being healthy, getting a good matchup, getting lucky, it goes on and on. Every year someone wins because of those reasons, and every year the percentage of each reason that goes into the championship formula changes.

Defense wins championships until the Rams bring the greatest show on turf. Pitching beats hitting until the Cardnials win the World Series. You can't win without a QB until the Ravens do it. You need a great goalie until Niemi and Leighton are the starters of the Cup Finals....

The point is defense wins..sometimes, and offense wins...sometimes. There is no right way to do it, and if you think there is then you're wrong. If there was, every team would try to build themselves the way that it needs to be done, and whoever did the best job of that would win. But it doesn't work like that. All you can do is build the best, and most balanced team you can, and hope the chips fall your way.

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06-13-2012, 09:27 AM
  #30
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The left wing lock...a system similar to what the Flyers use.

Anyway, it's also funny that the year following that coaching change to a defense oriented system Pitt allowed more goals than the previous year, and that last year they were mediocre again. So one year out of the 3 they were solid defensively. That year they lost in the 1st round.

You're also confusing not getting scored on with playing defense first. If you are going to sit there and tell me that the Chicago Blackhawks were a defense first team then you have no idea what the hell you're talking about. They didn't allow goals because they had an overwhelming offense. The same way Detroit doesn't allow goals because they continuously possess the puck in the offensive zone. That's not defense dude, that's the "the best defense is a good offense."

You can keep clinging to the fact that you know what wins championships when the real fact is you have no frigging clue. No one knows what wins championships because its a random combination of ever changing factors. Being good, being healthy, getting a good matchup, getting lucky, it goes on and on. Every year someone wins because of those reasons, and every year the percentage of each reason that goes into the championship formula changes.

Defense wins championships until the Rams bring the greatest show on turf. Pitching beats hitting until the Cardnials win the World Series. You can't win without a QB until the Ravens do it. You need a great goalie until Niemi and Leighton are the starters of the Cup Finals....

The point is defense wins..sometimes, and offense wins...sometimes. There is no right way to do it, and if you think there is then you're wrong. If there was, every team would try to build themselves the way that it needs to be done, and whoever did the best job of that would win. But it doesn't work like that. All you can do is build the best, and most balanced team you can, and hope the chips fall your way.
Two words for ^.............NICE!

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06-13-2012, 10:51 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
The left wing lock...a system similar to what the Flyers use.

Anyway, it's also funny that the year following that coaching change to a defense oriented system Pitt allowed more goals than the previous year, and that last year they were mediocre again. So one year out of the 3 they were solid defensively. That year they lost in the 1st round.

You're also confusing not getting scored on with playing defense first. If you are going to sit there and tell me that the Chicago Blackhawks were a defense first team then you have no idea what the hell you're talking about. They didn't allow goals because they had an overwhelming offense. The same way Detroit doesn't allow goals because they continuously possess the puck in the offensive zone. That's not defense dude, that's the "the best defense is a good offense."

You can keep clinging to the fact that you know what wins championships when the real fact is you have no frigging clue. No one knows what wins championships because its a random combination of ever changing factors. Being good, being healthy, getting a good matchup, getting lucky, it goes on and on. Every year someone wins because of those reasons, and every year the percentage of each reason that goes into the championship formula changes.

Defense wins championships until the Rams bring the greatest show on turf. Pitching beats hitting until the Cardnials win the World Series. You can't win without a QB until the Ravens do it. You need a great goalie until Niemi and Leighton are the starters of the Cup Finals....

The point is defense wins..sometimes, and offense wins...sometimes. There is no right way to do it, and if you think there is then you're wrong. If there was, every team would try to build themselves the way that it needs to be done, and whoever did the best job of that would win. But it doesn't work like that. All you can do is build the best, and most balanced team you can, and hope the chips fall your way.
Yeah, this is a really good post.

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06-13-2012, 09:02 PM
  #32
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The way it has gone. It will be a year noone expects them to. I wouldn't be surprised if we have one of the biggest draughts next to Columbus or Atlanta or some expansion team.

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06-13-2012, 09:14 PM
  #33
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I'm not extremely optimistic because Holmgren gets in his own way too much, but a lot can happen in 5 years so I can't say it will not happen. I know I certainly didn't expect the Phillies to win in a year when they had to send two of their starting pitchers to the minors, but they did.

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06-13-2012, 10:40 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Protest View Post
The left wing lock...a system similar to what the Flyers use.
Not really. That's Lavi propaganda you're regurgitating.

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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
Anyway, it's also funny that the year following that coaching change to a defense oriented system Pitt allowed more goals than the previous year, and that last year they were mediocre again. So one year out of the 3 they were solid defensively. That year they lost in the 1st round.
They played defense first, and won a cup. So did Boston and LA.

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You're also confusing not getting scored on with playing defense first. If you are going to sit there and tell me that the Chicago Blackhawks were a defense first team then you have no idea what the hell you're talking about. They didn't allow goals because they had an overwhelming offense. The same way Detroit doesn't allow goals because they continuously possess the puck in the offensive zone. That's not defense dude, that's the "the best defense is a good offense."
The Blackhawks were a defense first team. Just because they have some guys who are good with the puck on their stick and flashy offensively doesn't mean they don't play defense first.

As far as the Red Wings go, you're out in left field with that drivel. They BROUGHT the left wing lock to the NHL. Barry Smith learned it in Czechoslovakia and introduced it to Bowman.

If the Blackhawks were this "puck possession" team that you claim them to be, where did they rank among the teams that year in possession time?


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You can keep clinging to the fact that you know what wins championships when the real fact is you have no frigging clue. No one knows what wins championships because its a random combination of ever changing factors.
Being good, being healthy, getting a good matchup, getting lucky, it goes on and on. Every year someone wins because of those reasons, and every year the percentage of each reason that goes into the championship formula changes.
I had to LOL at this one. So GM's and coaches go in for interviews and the owner asks, "What are you going to do to bring me a cup?"

Prospective coach or GM says, "We will hopefully be good, hopefully be healthy and hopefully get a good matchup in the playoffs, and will need some luck too."

Yeah that's all it takes.

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Defense wins championships until the Rams bring the greatest show on turf.
Yes, as a 17 pt favorite they LOST to a team that stressed DEFENSE, the New England Patriots. Since Belichick became a 50+ pass a game guy and got away from
defense first, he hasn't won a SB. He lost the last two to a DEFENSE FIRST team, the NYG

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Pitching beats hitting until the Cardnials win the World Series.
The Cardinals had the third best pitching in the postseason that year, and out pitched the Philles. Remember Carpenter in game 7 out pitching the Doctor himself in his own yard.

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You can't win without a QB until the Ravens do it.
That's the exception, not the rule. Just like the aberration in Carolina.

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You need a great goalie until Niemi and Leighton are the starters of the Cup Finals....
Another exception and not the rule. Leighton didn't win a cup, and Niemi is far better than Michael Leighton.

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The point is defense wins..sometimes, and offense wins...sometimes.
No, defense wins a large majority of the time and usually rules the day.

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There is no right way to do it, and if you think there is then you're wrong.
Besides Clarke and his idiotic "If the players play good the goalie plays good" garbage, almost every cup winner is built from the net out. That's the right way, otherwise we would have goalies like Niemi winning cups every year. That doesn't happen.

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If there was, every team would try to build themselves the way that it needs to be done, and whoever did the best job of that would win.
There are 30 GM's, and they all will never build their teams the exact same way. For starters there aren't enough stud goalies to go around. Whoever plays the best defensively, and it is almost always a defense first team, usually with a stud goalie, wins the cup.

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But it doesn't work like that. All you can do is build the best, and most balanced team you can, and hope the chips fall your way.
Yeah the Kings were real balanced. You have such love for Lavy and his pond hockey you can't objectively look at the facts, and what wins 99% of the time in this league. You can cling to the false hope that racing up and down the ice will bring a cup here, but it hasn't and it never will.

Lombardi had a plan. It started with Taylor drafting Quick, and the team was built from the net out and played defense first. That's why they have the cup.

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Old
06-13-2012, 11:10 PM
  #35
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Depends, have we amnesty Bryz?

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06-14-2012, 12:50 AM
  #36
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Who the hell knows, a lot can happen in 5 years.

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Old
06-14-2012, 07:27 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by 35NW8ING View Post
Not really. That's Lavi propaganda you're regurgitating.



They played defense first, and won a cup. So did Boston and LA.



The Blackhawks were a defense first team. Just because they have some guys who are good with the puck on their stick and flashy offensively doesn't mean they don't play defense first.

As far as the Red Wings go, you're out in left field with that drivel. They BROUGHT the left wing lock to the NHL. Barry Smith learned it in Czechoslovakia and introduced it to Bowman.

If the Blackhawks were this "puck possession" team that you claim them to be, where did they rank among the teams that year in possession time?




I had to LOL at this one. So GM's and coaches go in for interviews and the owner asks, "What are you going to do to bring me a cup?"

Prospective coach or GM says, "We will hopefully be good, hopefully be healthy and hopefully get a good matchup in the playoffs, and will need some luck too."

Yeah that's all it takes.



Yes, as a 17 pt favorite they LOST to a team that stressed DEFENSE, the New England Patriots. Since Belichick became a 50+ pass a game guy and got away from
defense first, he hasn't won a SB. He lost the last two to a DEFENSE FIRST team, the NYG



The Cardinals had the third best pitching in the postseason that year, and out pitched the Philles. Remember Carpenter in game 7 out pitching the Doctor himself in his own yard.



That's the exception, not the rule. Just like the aberration in Carolina.



Another exception and not the rule. Leighton didn't win a cup, and Niemi is far better than Michael Leighton.



No, defense wins a large majority of the time and usually rules the day.



Besides Clarke and his idiotic "If the players play good the goalie plays good" garbage, almost every cup winner is built from the net out. That's the right way, otherwise we would have goalies like Niemi winning cups every year. That doesn't happen.



There are 30 GM's, and they all will never build their teams the exact same way. For starters there aren't enough stud goalies to go around. Whoever plays the best defensively, and it is almost always a defense first team, usually with a stud goalie, wins the cup.



Yeah the Kings were real balanced. You have such love for Lavy and his pond hockey you can't objectively look at the facts, and what wins 99% of the time in this league. You can cling to the false hope that racing up and down the ice will bring a cup here, but it hasn't and it never will.

Lombardi had a plan. It started with Taylor drafting Quick, and the team was built from the net out and played defense first. That's why they have the cup.
I could respond to all this, and prove that you're wrong again..but it's clear it would be wasting my time. So I'll leave it with a.. you really just don't know what the hell you're talking about.

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06-14-2012, 07:34 AM
  #38
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I could respond to all this, and prove that you're wrong again..but it's clear it would be wasting my time. So I'll leave it with a.. you really just don't know what the hell you're talking about.
It's called being out of bullets and unable to refute the facts. You're not one of those flat earth or birther people are you?

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06-14-2012, 07:35 AM
  #39
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It's called being out of bullets and unable to refute the facts. You're not one of those flat earth or birther people are you?
Its called being at work and having **** to do.

EDIT: I'll continue our chat in about 10 hours.

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06-14-2012, 11:24 AM
  #40
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I think the biggest thing about "defense first" play is that it gives you more opportunity to be "in" games.

Watching the flyers games, if they can't run the lavy forecheck or score on the PP then they are going to lose...period...looking at what LA did to NJD in the final...4 of the games were "2-1"...I have little doubt we could play in games that tight.
And the Rags and Yotes made the CF, I'd hardly call that failure.

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06-14-2012, 01:05 PM
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i think the flyers need to start resting players and managing minutes down second half of the stretch and just stay healthy.

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06-14-2012, 01:22 PM
  #42
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i think the flyers need to start resting players and managing minutes down second half of the stretch and just stay healthy.
Timonen agrees with you......but he's just another example of how the Flyers have always had to rely on one strong pillar on D instead of getting them help although to be fair Pronger was the help until he had the unfortunate injury. Nonetheless, Howe and Desjardins were relied upon too much and then we had some others including Garry Galley for a while there which was ridiculous.

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06-14-2012, 04:02 PM
  #43
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I don't think our defense is that bad. Granted, losing Pronger is a big blow. Kimmo isn't getting any younger. However, if we keep Carle, Mez, Coburn, Grossman and sign a decent, cheap guy like a Garrison or a Jackman, the defense is in good shape. It's the forwards that have to help out as well. As others have said, the whole team has to play defense and our forwards were definitely guilty of no defense or dumb passes in their own zone. Things need to be tweaked a little and I think we will be alright.

And Bryz, needs to be ready to go from jump when next season starts.

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06-14-2012, 05:20 PM
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Depends, have we amnesty Bryz?
but who will you stare at now when you post here? for a guy you hate so much you must love looking at him.

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06-14-2012, 05:20 PM
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I think the biggest thing about "defense first" play is that it gives you more opportunity to be "in" games.

Watching the flyers games, if they can't run the lavy forecheck or score on the PP then they are going to lose...period...looking at what LA did to NJD in the final...4 of the games were "2-1"...I have little doubt we could play in games that tight.
And the Rags and Yotes made the CF, I'd hardly call that failure.
That has been my point all along. I don't think this team is constructed or plays a style to win low scoring, tight playoff games. In Lavy's two full seasons we are 0-13 when scoring less than 4 goals in the playoffs.

0-2, 0-3, or even 0-4 could possibly be an aberration. 0-13 is a trend, and a bad one at that. Any team ever win a cup while going winless in that playoff year when scoring less than 4 goals?

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06-14-2012, 05:27 PM
  #46
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I don't think our defense is that bad. Granted, losing Pronger is a big blow. Kimmo isn't getting any younger. However, if we keep Carle, Mez, Coburn, Grossman and sign a decent, cheap guy like a Garrison or a Jackman, the defense is in good shape. It's the forwards that have to help out as well. As others have said, the whole team has to play defense and our forwards were definitely guilty of no defense or dumb passes in their own zone. Things need to be tweaked a little and I think we will be alright.

And Bryz, needs to be ready to go from jump when next season starts.
It isn't that bad, definitely better than what some teams have. But it isn't "win a Cup" good.

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That has been my point all along. I don't think this team is constructed or plays a style to win low scoring, tight playoff games. In Lavy's two full seasons we are 0-13 when scoring less than 4 goals in the playoffs.

0-2, 0-3, or even 0-4 could possibly be an aberration. 0-13 is a trend, and a bad one at that. Any team ever win a cup while going winless in that playoff year when scoring less than 4 goals?
That can also be a function of goaltending, which has been lackluster to say the least.

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06-14-2012, 05:31 PM
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please point out the best goalie on the worst team. and i mean team that plays a horrendous system. i honestly believe our defensive scheme ceases to exist. its us.

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06-14-2012, 05:34 PM
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please point out the best goalie on the worst team. and i mean team that plays a horrendous system. i honestly believe our defensive scheme ceases to exist. its us.
That would be Sanford on Columbus. 2.61, .911%

Edit: Carolina was another really bad team. They allowed close to 33 shots against per game. Ward put up 2.74, .915

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06-14-2012, 05:45 PM
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The SC playoffs have become so flukey the past few years , so I dont know . The Flyers had no business being in the Finals 2 years back , the Bruins had no business winning the Cup last year (according to the experts anyways) and these past couple months , wow fluke city . Nobody predicted a NJ-LA Finals. so my theory is this, get in the dance and see...

get in and see minus Bryzgalov and Carle that is

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06-14-2012, 07:43 PM
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That would be Sanford on Columbus. 2.61, .911%

Edit: Carolina was another really bad team. They allowed close to 33 shots against per game. Ward put up 2.74, .915
bah. i'll get you next time.

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