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Offseason Thread 2012 II: Offseason Harder

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Old
06-14-2012, 07:44 PM
  #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
This.

Not to mention the absurdity of some of the posts on the trade forum.

Start with Couturier and Coburn? **** no.

Can we please just sign a UFA and re-sign Carle? Next year there's an even greater plethora of unrestricted defensemen to go after with even more cap space in our pocket without losing any valuable assets for no reason. Meanwhile we let our core develop.

Let's just stand pat. We added Grossmann. Add another defenseman and a defensive forward like Gaustad. Or hell, just Gaustad.

Hartnell - Giroux - Briere
vanRiemsdyk - Schenn - Voracek
Simmonds - Couturier - Read
Talbot - Gaustad - Wellwood
Rinaldo

Timonen - Bourdon
Coburn - Grossmann
Meszaros - Carle
Gustafsson

Bryzgalov
Bobrovsky
How much are you going pay Gaustad to play on the 4th line? He made 2.5M last year. Would you expect him to take a paycut? Or expect him to sign on for a 4th line role?

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06-14-2012, 08:14 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
How much are you going pay Gaustad to play on the 4th line? He made 2.5M last year. Would you expect him to take a paycut? Or expect him to sign on for a 4th line role?
No paycut. We have plenty of cap room.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sh0otnSc0re View Post
Not winning a cup with that d-core. Also you forgot the fact that Jagr apparently ALREADY has terms to a deal done.
Jagr's deal may be done, but it doesn't mean he's signed. My hope is that we come to our senses before July 1st. It won't happen, but I can hope right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
That d core wasnt nearly good enough to get past the 2nd round last season. It's not going to be good enough next season, unless timonen reverse ages and pronger gets de-concussed.

It's just NOT good enough. It's pretty plain and simple. They need a significant upgrade in one of those defensive spots if there's going to be any sort of progress, or else it's going to be more of the same thing next season. Sure Meszaros was hurt most of the second half but he was a non factor in the first half.

I don't know how you could believe staying pat at defense to be a good idea.
Staying pat at defense isn't a good idea. No, we can't win with that defense when it's hurt. With Grossmann and Meszaros healthy? Maybe. Still, unlikely. I know.

However...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
2013 UFA Defensemen:

(Weber)
Timonen
Streit
Visnovsky
Gonchar
Hainsey
Regehr
Zidlicky
Whitney
Enstrom
Hamrlik
Edler
Vlasic
Leopold
Lydman
I. White
Poti
Babchuk
Ference
Smid

Sign Carle this year, make a run at Schultz, and draft a defenseman. Go after Weber next year. Streit, Enstrom, Edler, Vlasic, and Smid interest me as well should they make it to market.

There's no reason to overpay Suter, and less reason to worry should we not get him.

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06-14-2012, 08:37 PM
  #153
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Honestly, I think we should be fine if we resign Carle, Jagr and Voracek and sign another UFA defensemen who is hard to play against for cheap. Not another softie, so a guy like Bryan Allen, Barrett Jackman (who won't be that cheap), or Shane O'Brien.

If necessary, we could package together some pieces for Bouwmeester or any of the other mentioned 'big names'. I just don't think that's the right move (unless it lands us Rick Nash or Shea Weber without giving up Schenn, Couturier or Voracek - which is unlikely).

I think we will do fine with a core of:

Carle - Timonen
Grossmann - Coburn
Meszaros - Allen/O'Brien
Bourdon, Gustafsson

UNTIL THE DEADLINE. That's when I would grab a big name defensemen like Enstrom, Visnovsky or Streit. We haven't seen how this core will play when healthy. I think we need more forwards who play two-way. Jagr, Briere and to a lesser extent JVR and Simmonds are all ****** defensively and while Hartnell and Giroux are solid, they could use some work. I wish we kept Richards and Versteeg instead of Jagr, Schenn and Simmonds to be honest.

---

I don't give a **** about the regular season though, and I'd rather suit up in February than ice the team that I want to be playing in June in October... case in point:

Kings added Carter through trades and also brought Voynov, King and Nolan up into their roster. 4 'new players' since offseason. Removed Johnson, Hunter, Moreau, etc.

Bruins added Peverley, Kaberle and Kelly while removing Wheeler, Stuart, etc. Kaberle was a dud but Peverley and Kelly pushed their forward core over the edge in terms of talent and depth.

Chicago got rid of Cam Barker. Solid move, haha. Their big move was in the offseason, though, acquiring Hossa through free agency. Furthermore, they went into the season expecting Cristobal Huet to lead them to the cup (he played 50 games). Their 'deadline' acquisition was perhaps the emergence of Antii Niemi...

Pittsburgh acquired Guerin, Kunitz and Boucher. Boucher had little impact, but Guerin and Kunitz were 3rd and tied for 4th in team scoring...

Detroit acquired Brad Stuart at the deadline, while the Penguins acquired Marian Hossa. Both went onto the Stanley Cup final.


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06-14-2012, 08:40 PM
  #154
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I REALLY don't understand how anyone could honestly believe this defense as it currently is, if we merely resign Carle, is good enough to compete for a cup. It's just not. We've seen this, I don't know what some of you guys were watching this season, but it wasn't the same thing I saw. Unless the defense is addressed in one way or another, it's going to be the same result.

Meszaros was hurt a lot of the season, yes, but he was awful the first half of the season regardless. Grossmann is a good addition, but he's not going to put you over the top in any sense. He's a supporting character. This team needs a legitimate #1 defenseman. Until that happens, it's going to be just what you saw last season.

Yes we have a very good young core of forwards to be excited about, and to develop, but without that defensive cog, it is an irrelevant luxury.


Last edited by orange is better: 06-14-2012 at 08:47 PM.
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06-14-2012, 09:09 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
I REALLY don't understand how anyone could honestly believe this defense as it currently is, if we merely resign Carle, is good enough to compete for a cup. It's just not. We've seen this, I don't know what some of you guys were watching this season, but it wasn't the same thing I saw. Unless the defense is addressed in one way or another, it's going to be the same result.

Meszaros was hurt a lot of the season, yes, but he was awful the first half of the season regardless. Grossmann is a good addition, but he's not going to put you over the top in any sense. He's a supporting character. This team needs a legitimate #1 defenseman. Until that happens, it's going to be just what you saw last season.

Yes we have a very good young core of forwards to be excited about, and to develop, but without that defensive cog, it is an irrelevant luxury.
yes i agree, this team needs defense and a forward to replace jagr, somehow i think the fo will address both through trades or FA,

the fo is definitely going to do that this summer, jvr has to go for this to work one way or another he's the only piece.

i smell a big trade coming probably not until the draft when they got pronger.

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06-14-2012, 09:16 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
I REALLY don't understand how anyone could honestly believe this defense as it currently is, if we merely resign Carle, is good enough to compete for a cup. It's just not. We've seen this, I don't know what some of you guys were watching this season, but it wasn't the same thing I saw. Unless the defense is addressed in one way or another, it's going to be the same result.

Meszaros was hurt a lot of the season, yes, but he was awful the first half of the season regardless. Grossmann is a good addition, but he's not going to put you over the top in any sense. He's a supporting character. This team needs a legitimate #1 defenseman. Until that happens, it's going to be just what you saw last season.

Yes we have a very good young core of forwards to be excited about, and to develop, but without that defensive cog, it is an irrelevant luxury.
I don't think Timonen, Carle, Grossmann, Coburn, Meszaros, Bourdon is as bad as you think. It's not like the Devils had a bunch of world-beaters with Salvador, Zidlicky, Greene, Fayne, Volchenkov and Harrold/Larson and they seemed to do pretty well.

In my opinion the issue is more that there needs to be more of a commitment to team defense, especially from the forwards. Guys can't just drift back in transition or just stand slot without guarding anyone, and nobody should get a free pass, including guys like Giroux who seemed to get lazy in his own end a little too much for my liking.

Realistically you can't really get mad at Giroux considering his contributions on the other end of the ice but guys like Briere and JVR need to get a clue in their own end or be moved to less prominent roles (like putting Briere on the wing).

From what I saw the Devils didn't get to the cup because of a stacked defense, or an unbelievable effort from their stars (although they were good), or lights out goaltending. They did it by having good puck support in their own end and having a relentless and disciplined forecheck.

I'm not a huge fan of not having a true #1 defenseman or Bryz in net, but I think we have enough strengths to overcome those flaws if they play smart. This organization just underwent a huge overhaul last offseason, let's try having some patience and truly see what we have with this group before going through another one.

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06-14-2012, 09:19 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by dawkins121 View Post
I don't think Timonen, Carle, Grossmann, Coburn, Meszaros, Bourdon is as bad as you think. It's not like the Devils had a bunch of world-beaters with Salvador, Zidlicky, Greene, Fayne, Volchenkov and Harrold/Larson and they seemed to do pretty well.

In my opinion the issue is more that there needs to be more of a commitment to team defense, especially from the forwards. Guys can't just drift back in transition or just stand slot without guarding anyone, and nobody should get a free pass, including guys like Giroux who seemed to get lazy in his own end a little too much for my liking.

Realistically you can't really get mad at Giroux considering his contributions on the other end of the ice but guys like Briere and JVR need to get a clue in their own end or be moved to less prominent roles (like putting Briere on the wing).

From what I saw the Devils didn't get to the cup because of a stacked defense, or an unbelievable effort from their stars (although they were good), or lights out goaltending. They did it by having good puck support in their own end and having a relentless and disciplined forecheck.

I'm not a huge fan of not having a true #1 defenseman or Bryz in net, but I think we have enough strengths to overcome those flaws if they play smart. This organization just underwent a huge overhaul last offseason, let's try having some patience and truly see what we have with this group before going through another one.
All I'm saying is if you have a chance to go out an make a trade for Shea Weber. You do it, as long as it doesn't Include couturier or giroux.

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06-14-2012, 09:54 PM
  #158
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I don't know wtf is going on....


Darren Dreger:
No hip surgery necessary for James VanRiemsdyk. Expected to be fully recovered in time for training camp.
10:10pm - 14 Jun 12

Tim Panaccio:
Holmgren confirms TSN report on JVR. No surgery needed on hip - just rehab
10:50pm - 14 Jun 12

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06-14-2012, 09:57 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by healthyscratch View Post
I don't know wtf is going on....


Darren Dreger:
No hip surgery necessary for James VanRiemsdyk. Expected to be fully recovered in time for training camp.
10:10pm - 14 Jun 12

Tim Panaccio:
Holmgren confirms TSN report on JVR. No surgery needed on hip - just rehab
10:50pm - 14 Jun 12
Mind = Blown

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06-14-2012, 09:58 PM
  #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by healthyscratch View Post
I don't know wtf is going on....


Darren Dreger:
No hip surgery necessary for James VanRiemsdyk. Expected to be fully recovered in time for training camp.
10:10pm - 14 Jun 12

Tim Panaccio:
Holmgren confirms TSN report on JVR. No surgery needed on hip - just rehab
10:50pm - 14 Jun 12

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06-14-2012, 10:01 PM
  #161
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It was just announced on tsn.ca that JVR will NOT need surgery on his hip. Of note, I talked to my scout friend after the news was announced and he said that the Flyers are in on some serious talks for defensemen. There were several names being thrown about and Weber is not on the list. Nashville simply wants way too much. Kulikov's name has come up, OEL in Phoenix as well as Rundblad and Gormley. However, the other name that's come up that 's gone under the radar is Erik Johnson. Holmgren and company believe he's ready to bring his game to the next level and that they see him as being a top pairing guy.

As for Rick Nash, the Flyers are supposed to be bowing out because once again, the cost is too high. They offered two players and a couple of first round picks and Columbus said no. Holmgren feels that his offer was more than fair and Scott Howson is the one who put himself in his situation and that Holmgren has thrown him a very nice bone. So, expect Holmgren to kick tires with teams you normally don't hear him talk about (Dallas, San Jose, Detroit, Chicago, etc....)

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06-14-2012, 10:01 PM
  #162
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A labrum tear requires surgery........so what the hell is his actual injury...... I know hip flexors can be humongous problems if injured in certain ways......any ideas on what it could actually be?

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06-14-2012, 10:02 PM
  #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
It was just announced on tsn.ca that JVR will NOT need surgery on his hip. Of note, I talked to my scout friend after the news was announced and he said that the Flyers are in on some serious talks for defensemen. There were several names being thrown about and Weber is not on the list. Nashville simply wants way too much. Kulikov's name has come up, OEL in Phoenix as well as Rundblad and Gormley. However, the other name that's come up that 's gone under the radar is Erik Johnson. Holmgren and company believe he's ready to bring his game to the next level and that they see him as being a top pairing guy.

As for Rick Nash, the Flyers are supposed to be bowing out because once again, the cost is too high. They offered two players and a couple of first round picks and Columbus said no. Holmgren feels that his offer was more than fair and Scott Howson is the one who put himself in his situation and that Holmgren has thrown him a very nice bone. So, expect Holmgren to kick tires with teams you normally don't hear him talk about (Dallas, San Jose, Detroit, Chicago, etc....)
Getting kulikov would be phenomenal.....one of my favorite players not on the flyers

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06-14-2012, 10:04 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
It was just announced on tsn.ca that JVR will NOT need surgery on his hip. Of note, I talked to my scout friend after the news was announced and he said that the Flyers are in on some serious talks for defensemen. There were several names being thrown about and Weber is not on the list. Nashville simply wants way too much. Kulikov's name has come up, OEL in Phoenix as well as Rundblad and Gormley. However, the other name that's come up that 's gone under the radar is Erik Johnson. Holmgren and company believe he's ready to bring his game to the next level and that they see him as being a top pairing guy.

As for Rick Nash, the Flyers are supposed to be bowing out because once again, the cost is too high. They offered two players and a couple of first round picks and Columbus said no. Holmgren feels that his offer was more than fair and Scott Howson is the one who put himself in his situation and that Holmgren has thrown him a very nice bone. So, expect Holmgren to kick tires with teams you normally don't hear him talk about (Dallas, San Jose, Detroit, Chicago, etc....)
Calgary...

Exactly. No Suter, no Weber. It's just like every other offseason. Holmgren will be forced out of his top choice, and he will be forced to get creative.

Nothing new here, and honestly, Holmgren sometimes does his best work when he's forced to get creative.

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06-14-2012, 10:11 PM
  #165
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Howsen's an idiot. Plain and simple. He has no leverage on a Nash trade. He wants Schenn, Kreider, Couturier, etc., but he's going to have to realize that he's going to end up with players like JVR, Voracek, Dubinsky, Simmonds, or Stepan (maybe).


He can drag it on as long as he wants, but NYR and PHI have no reason whatsoever to give up pieces like Schenn, Kreider, Couturier, McDonagh, or Staal for Nash. The guy just isnt that good. He's a great piece to have, but at the end of the day, he doesnt provide enough to justify giving up players with the talent to be just as valuable, if not more so.


I'm not surprised to hear us testing the waters on other young defenders, either. Erik Johnson would be great, but there is no reason for Colorado to move him at all. Same goes for Gudbranson, Kulikov, and OEL.

Not really sure who we could go for...I think Bouwmeester would be alright, and not too expensive-- I wouldnt be mad if we took a chance on him for the right price.

But I really think we'll wait it out, and then Howsen will come back and offer the 2nd overall for JVR+20th overall on draft day. Then we draft Murray, and all is right with the world again

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06-14-2012, 10:14 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
It was just announced on tsn.ca that JVR will NOT need surgery on his hip. Of note, I talked to my scout friend after the news was announced and he said that the Flyers are in on some serious talks for defensemen. There were several names being thrown about and Weber is not on the list. Nashville simply wants way too much. Kulikov's name has come up, OEL in Phoenix as well as Rundblad and Gormley. However, the other name that's come up that 's gone under the radar is Erik Johnson. Holmgren and company believe he's ready to bring his game to the next level and that they see him as being a top pairing guy.

As for Rick Nash, the Flyers are supposed to be bowing out because once again, the cost is too high. They offered two players and a couple of first round picks and Columbus said no. Holmgren feels that his offer was more than fair and Scott Howson is the one who put himself in his situation and that Holmgren has thrown him a very nice bone. So, expect Holmgren to kick tires with teams you normally don't hear him talk about (Dallas, San Jose, Detroit, Chicago, etc....)
This is interesting! I would LOVE any of OEL, Kulikov, Rundblad, Gormley or Johnson.

I've always really liked Johnson. I don't think he's the type of guy who will ever be a bonafide #1 guy, but I think he can be a very very good #2 guy. Obviously OEL would just be incredible but I don't see Phoenix entertaining moving him.

I'd say Gormley or Rundblad would be the most realistic of that list, and I'm not quite sure either of them is what we need... But I can't say I wouldn't love to have them.

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06-14-2012, 10:22 PM
  #167
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
It was just announced on tsn.ca that JVR will NOT need surgery on his hip. Of note, I talked to my scout friend after the news was announced and he said that the Flyers are in on some serious talks for defensemen. There were several names being thrown about and Weber is not on the list. Nashville simply wants way too much. Kulikov's name has come up, OEL in Phoenix as well as Rundblad and Gormley. However, the other name that's come up that 's gone under the radar is Erik Johnson. Holmgren and company believe he's ready to bring his game to the next level and that they see him as being a top pairing guy.

As for Rick Nash, the Flyers are supposed to be bowing out because once again, the cost is too high. They offered two players and a couple of first round picks and Columbus said no. Holmgren feels that his offer was more than fair and Scott Howson is the one who put himself in his situation and that Holmgren has thrown him a very nice bone. So, expect Holmgren to kick tires with teams you normally don't hear him talk about (Dallas, San Jose, Detroit, Chicago, etc....)
I dont really think they will move OEL out of Phoenix. The Florida fans think Kulikov is worth a fortune(which they are most likely wrong), but don't see them moving him either.

Also who would they be looking to acquire on the teams you mention? Detroit are starving for defenders as of right now. Dallas doesn't have any dman that entice me? San Jose has Douglas Murray, but his foot speed is a killer. Dan Boyle is too old. Chicago has only Hammer I would think would be available? Seabrook and Keith aren't going anywhere I would think. Just some of this doesn't add up really.

If we want to trade with Florida, go for Gudbranson. He has future stud written all over him. He would be the young dman I would target the most if I was Homer. If he can't be bought, then who the hell knows

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06-14-2012, 10:31 PM
  #168
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Go hard after Sbisa?

Although, I wish we could nab EJ.

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06-14-2012, 10:32 PM
  #169
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A lot of intresting things the flyers could do. I could see a Erik Johnson trade or a trade for Gormley. IMO OEL and Gudbrannson are going no where

Another name Im curious about would be Duncan Siemans, I wonder if Colorado would part with him now since he was the guy Holmgren targeted.

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06-14-2012, 10:33 PM
  #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
It was just announced on tsn.ca that JVR will NOT need surgery on his hip. Of note, I talked to my scout friend after the news was announced and he said that the Flyers are in on some serious talks for defensemen. There were several names being thrown about and Weber is not on the list. Nashville simply wants way too much. Kulikov's name has come up, OEL in Phoenix as well as Rundblad and Gormley. However, the other name that's come up that 's gone under the radar is Erik Johnson. Holmgren and company believe he's ready to bring his game to the next level and that they see him as being a top pairing guy.

As for Rick Nash, the Flyers are supposed to be bowing out because once again, the cost is too high. They offered two players and a couple of first round picks and Columbus said no. Holmgren feels that his offer was more than fair and Scott Howson is the one who put himself in his situation and that Holmgren has thrown him a very nice bone. So, expect Holmgren to kick tires with teams you normally don't hear him talk about (Dallas, San Jose, Detroit, Chicago, etc....)
Best case scenario here IMO. I don't want to overpay for Nash/Weber/etc. although I would love to have them.

Since we've just built up a solid future with all these young studs, I would rather we don't sell the farm for another established star as we have in the past. Developing our forwards (Giroux, Couts, Schenn, Voracek, Simmonds, JVR, etc.) and trading for a guy like Kulikov, Rundblad or Erik Johnson and have them develop at the same time, and maybe drafting a stud of our own if we can move up in the draft (Ceci, Maata, Lindholm, etc.). They will be peaking at the same time our older players are close to moving on like Briere, Timonen, Jagr, and Hartnell. This way, the young players can take over for the old guys and also give us a good chance to win as was shown this past season - beating that powerhouse Pittsburgh team was a good test as NOBODY picked the Flyers to win.

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06-14-2012, 10:33 PM
  #171
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I dont really think they will move OEL out of Phoenix. The Florida fans think Kulikov is worth a fortune(which they are most likely wrong), but don't see them moving him either.

Also who would they be looking to acquire on the teams you mention? Detroit are starving for defenders as of right now. Dallas doesn't have any dman that entice me? San Jose has Douglas Murray, but his foot speed is a killer. Dan Boyle is too old. Chicago has only Hammer I would think would be available? Seabrook and Keith aren't going anywhere I would think. Just some of this doesn't add up really.

If we want to trade with Florida, go for Gudbranson. He has future stud written all over him. He would be the young dman I would target the most if I was Homer. If he can't be bought, then who the hell knows
I see no way Florida trades Gudbranson. He showed in the playoffs just what kind of player he can be. Panthers fans and management also see him as future captain material.

I think Homer's best bet is trying to pry away one of Phoenix's surplus defensemen. Goncharov perhaps, as BCF16 has alluded to in the past.

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06-14-2012, 10:33 PM
  #172
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Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
A lot of intresting things the flyers could do. I could see a Erik Johnson trade or a trade for Gormley. IMO OEL and Gudbrannson are going no where

Another name Im curious about would be Duncan Siemans, I wonder if Colorado would part with him now since he was the guy Holmgren targeted.
Siemens does nothing to improve our defense for four years.

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06-14-2012, 10:34 PM
  #173
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Erik Johnson would be nice. Really nice. Talking about a future captain right there.

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06-14-2012, 10:35 PM
  #174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Siemens does nothing to improve our defense for four years.

I think he can contribute in 2 years and with our group of young forwards it would be nice to match them up with some young dmen

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06-14-2012, 10:42 PM
  #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
. Holmgren feels that his offer was more than fair and Scott Howson is the one who put himself in his situation and that Holmgren has thrown him a very nice bone. So, expect Holmgren to kick tires with teams you normally don't hear him talk about (Dallas, San Jose, Detroit, Chicago, etc....)
Ha ha...Howson looks so desperate to redeem himself for that debacle Carter trade with us.....

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