HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Detroit Red Wings
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Green to Wings?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
06-12-2012, 12:11 PM
  #101
RedWingsNow*
SaskatoonDeathSquad
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Ann Arbor
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,356
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaster View Post
Who said he's garbage, or that he won't crack 40 points?

Look, things change. A number of factors, when combined, raise doubt that Green can do in the future what he's done in the past.

- Boudreau and his run-and-gun system is now gone
- Green has significant injury concerns
- He will be 27 this year and soon leaving his prime

Would I be shocked if he put up 70 points again? No. But I don't expect him to, and I don't think he ever would in Detroit.
I think the graphs I've seen indicate that the defensemen production curve peaks later than a forwards, and it plateaus longer.

RedWingsNow* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-12-2012, 12:13 PM
  #102
Zetterberg4Captain
Registered User
 
Zetterberg4Captain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Detroit
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,777
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoupNazi View Post
Comparing Crosby's health to Green's is a fallacy as well. There's no way you can compare the face of the league (Crosby) to an average defenseman like Green and say that if Crosby's health doesn't effect his contract, Green's shouldn't, is false. Crosby, as the face of the league, will be given his next contract on his name alone. Green won't.

Is it right? Not necessarily, but it's the way things are done.
sorry thats not what was said

it was said that health concerns lower a players value, and no player has had more health concerns then crosby the last two years and yet, pittsburgh reportedly is willing to offer him close to 100 million for a decade.

maybe they havent heard about his health concerns

but you're right though, repeatedly being nominated for the Norris as the leagues top dman = average and thats why each year 150plus dmen get this nomination

Zetterberg4Captain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-12-2012, 12:24 PM
  #103
jaster
I pay off the mods.
 
jaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Chicago, IL
Country: United States
Posts: 6,430
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turkish View Post
If turning 27 means he's leaving his prime soon, Detroit should start a massive rebuild right now to get more youth onto the roster b/c almost every impact player they have now is past their prime by that thinking.
Not sure why you think the Wings need a massive rebuild based on the definition of "prime." Do you think when a player leaves his prime he loses all value or something? The Wings can have most of their key players past their prime, which they do, and still be a competitive team. I'm not saying Green will be worthless after he leaves his prime, I'm saying it will be less likely he hits 70 points. Capiche?

jaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-12-2012, 12:26 PM
  #104
InjuredChoker
Registered User
 
InjuredChoker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: LTIR or golf course
Posts: 24,877
vCash: 955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turkish View Post
I'll grant that 2 consecutive seasons with major injuries is a concern, but his age is piling up too? You do realize that he's only 26, right? He's the same age as Quincey and about a year and a half older than Kindl, so I don't necessarily think that he's past his prime. If Green were to play in Detroit next season, there a ton of guys on the team that I'd worry about age-related issues before him.
Yes I do.

During he's best seasons, he was often playing like a fourth forward, using his speed and shot. Speed starts to decline (though slowly) around those years and with he's injury issues (assuming he doesn't get past them) every year he's walking off his prime.

I still think he's in his prime but he's peak was couple of years ago. I just don't see him being very valuable player in his 30s or so if he doesn't evolve he's game.

But if he comes to Detroit I would be happy him proving me wrong

Quote:
I can look past the injury issue b/c there are lots of guys who have injuries during their careers and come back to play well. Kronwall had his issues years ago, Z had some back problems, and I hope we're not throwing in the towel on Howard already b/c of his health issues.
Yes there are but sadly, many guys who never get past them.


Quote:
I agree that if he can stay healthy, he can put up points in any system. The guy is gifted offensively like we're hoping Smith proves to be, and he's a RH shot also. Whether we signed Suter or not, if Green played for Detroit next season, I think he easily leads the D in goals and assists. He may not be a Chara-like shutdown guy in his own zone, but his defensive play isn't as bad as some here are suggesting either. Honestly, even if he's just average defensively, his offensive game makes him one of the better d-men in the NHL, and IMO his points were down the last 2 seasons mostly due to injuries (and this season, partly due to Hunter trying to turn the Caps into the '90's Devils with a defensive mindset).
I agree, points were mostly down because of his injuries and very defensive system that was used during Boudreau's tenure too, strating around december 2010.

InjuredChoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-12-2012, 12:30 PM
  #105
jaster
I pay off the mods.
 
jaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Chicago, IL
Country: United States
Posts: 6,430
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zetterberg4Captain View Post
sorry thats not what was said

it was said that health concerns lower a players value, and no player has had more health concerns then crosby the last two years and yet, pittsburgh reportedly is willing to offer him close to 100 million for a decade.

maybe they havent heard about his health concerns

but you're right though, repeatedly being nominated for the Norris as the leagues top dman = average and thats why each year 150plus dmen get this nomination
I'm unclear as to what your argument is at this point. Do you think Green's health issues have or have not affected his value?

jaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-12-2012, 12:36 PM
  #106
Zetterberg4Captain
Registered User
 
Zetterberg4Captain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Detroit
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,777
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaster View Post
I'm unclear as to what your argument is at this point. Do you think Green's health issues have or have not affected his value?
i really dont think they have effected his value all that much

i still see him signing a new contract that pays him at least 5 million a season or whatever it is he gets currently on at least another 4-6 year term

i do not think any GM in the league regards mike green today an after-thought or a "yesterday" man

Zetterberg4Captain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-12-2012, 12:36 PM
  #107
Brick Top
eeeehhhhhhhhhhh
 
Brick Top's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Grand Rapids
Posts: 1,818
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaster View Post
A player's prime is mid-to-late 20s, so yeah, in 2-3 years, Mike Green will be out of his prime. He is currently in his prime.

Not sure why you think the Wings need a massive rebuild based on the definition of "prime." Do you think when a player leaves his prime he loses all value or something? The Wings can have most of their key players past their prime, which they do, and still be a competitive team. I'm not saying Green will be worthless after he leaves his prime, I'm saying it will be less likely he hits 70 points. Capiche?
I don't think they need a rebuild, but I would think an organization wouldn't want to have all of their top guys past their prime, so apparently I think a player's prime (especially a d-man) can extend further than you do. Heck, with the way the Wings bring up most of their younger players by doing the "overripe" thing in GR or overseas, then have them kick around a few seasons in the bottom 6 or bottom pairing on D, the Wings aren't getting many prime years at all from their players (again, using your definition of prime).

No, players don't lose ALL value when they leave their prime, but they are clearing leaving some productivity and effectiveness behind, so a team has to bring in younger guys in their prime to compensate. And I can't believe that you dropped a "capiche" on me- my kids hate it when I use it on them

Brick Top is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-12-2012, 01:40 PM
  #108
jaster
I pay off the mods.
 
jaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Chicago, IL
Country: United States
Posts: 6,430
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turkish View Post
I don't think they need a rebuild, but I would think an organization wouldn't want to have all of their top guys past their prime, so apparently I think a player's prime (especially a d-man) can extend further than you do. Heck, with the way the Wings bring up most of their younger players by doing the "overripe" thing in GR or overseas, then have them kick around a few seasons in the bottom 6 or bottom pairing on D, the Wings aren't getting many prime years at all from their players (again, using your definition of prime).

No, players don't lose ALL value when they leave their prime, but they are clearing leaving some productivity and effectiveness behind, so a team has to bring in younger guys in their prime to compensate. And I can't believe that you dropped a "capiche" on me- my kids hate it when I use it on them


I'm just going by "prime" as defined by some of the charts that have come out over the years showing production vs age. And I think Capt Bob is right, in that defensemen peak later than forwards and plateau a little longer. But the bell curve for forwards generally shows peak years to be between 24/25 and 28/29. Hank, Dats, and Franzen are all beyond that, but all three guys are still obviously valuable. However, they are past their prime, which is why I think it's critical to get a guy like Parise, a superstar forward who is still in his prime, to bridge the gap to our incoming prospects.

jaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-12-2012, 01:52 PM
  #109
Zetterberg4Captain
Registered User
 
Zetterberg4Captain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Detroit
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,777
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaster View Post


I'm just going by "prime" as defined by some of the charts that have come out over the years showing production vs age. And I think Capt Bob is right, in that defensemen peak later than forwards and plateau a little longer. But the bell curve for forwards generally shows peak years to be between 24/25 and 28/29. Hank, Dats, and Franzen are all beyond that, but all three guys are still obviously valuable. However, they are past their prime, which is why I think it's critical to get a guy like Parise, a superstar forward who is still in his prime, to bridge the gap to our incoming prospects.
i agree with you on this..

parise would be HUGE, EPIC even if I may

Zetterberg4Captain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-12-2012, 03:24 PM
  #110
Bench
Moderator
Coffee. Pie. Owls.
 
Bench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Twin Peaks
Posts: 9,165
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zetterberg4Captain View Post
i really dont think they have effected his value all that much

i still see him signing a new contract that pays him at least 5 million a season or whatever it is he gets currently on at least another 4-6 year term

i do not think any GM in the league regards mike green today an after-thought or a "yesterday" man
You say his value isn't hurt much, then say he'll sign for 5 million a year, at 4-6 years. That's as low as $20 million dollars.

If Green was healthy and producing like his Norris nomination year, he'd be getting 7 million a year for 7 years without an eye blink ($49 million). Think Brian Campbell contract. Campbell was older than Green and signed an 8 year deal for $57 million. With the cap higher now than then, Mike Green would find that kind of money somewhere.

For all the Green bashing about his defense, he's pretty incredible on the powerplay. The Capitols powerplay was lost without him. If you can afford to pay a guy for powerplay time, he's your man.

Bench is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-12-2012, 03:42 PM
  #111
Z40
High Compete Level
 
Z40's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Detroit
Country: United States
Posts: 787
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoupNazi View Post
Comparing Crosby's health to Green's is a fallacy as well. There's no way you can compare the face of the league (Crosby) to an average defenseman like Green and say that if Crosby's health doesn't effect his contract, Green's shouldn't, is false. Crosby, as the face of the league, will be given his next contract on his name alone. Green won't.

Is it right? Not necessarily, but it's the way things are done.
Agreed. You can't compare anyone to Crosby. He is a generational talent. His health concerns will not diminish his value. Any team would take Crosby in a heartbeat if he was available.

---

Anyway, I think people are missing the point. Nobody is saying Mike Green is bad, or that he couldn't be useful to us. The fact is, we don't need another offensive-minded defenseman right now. We just lost Lidstrom and Stuart. Probably our two most solid defensive D-men. Sure, you could argue Big E was better than Stuart during the second half of the season, but for most of the years he was with us, Stuey was a rock.

We need a reliable defensive D-man. Kronwall is our most veteran defenseman now. As great as he is, he tends to get caught pinching too much. Big E has improved but we'll see how he handles a whole season getting 2nd pair minutes on top of his usual PK minutes. Quincey showed improvement during the playoffs, but he is still an unknown factor at this point, not having played a whole season with us. White is not nearly as good without Lidstrom helping him. Smith and Kindl are inexperienced and prone to turnovers.

We need a rock. Not someone who is injury prone and likes to run and gun.

Z40 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-12-2012, 03:49 PM
  #112
Zetterberg4Captain
Registered User
 
Zetterberg4Captain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Detroit
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,777
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bench View Post
You say his value isn't hurt much, then say he'll sign for 5 million a year, at 4-6 years. That's as low as $20 million dollars.

If Green was healthy and producing like his Norris nomination year, he'd be getting 7 million a year for 7 years without an eye blink ($49 million). Think Brian Campbell contract. Campbell was older than Green and signed an 8 year deal for $57 million. With the cap higher now than then, Mike Green would find that kind of money somewhere.

For all the Green bashing about his defense, he's pretty incredible on the powerplay. The Capitols powerplay was lost without him. If you can afford to pay a guy for powerplay time, he's your man.
what i meant was that he wouldnt take a pay cut from hsi previous contract, thats all

i didnt factor in salary cap inflation effects

Zetterberg4Captain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-12-2012, 03:51 PM
  #113
Zetterberg4Captain
Registered User
 
Zetterberg4Captain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Detroit
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,777
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Z40 View Post
Agreed. You can't compare anyone to Crosby. He is a generational talent. His health concerns will not diminish his value. Any team would take Crosby in a heartbeat if he was available.

---

Anyway, I think people are missing the point. Nobody is saying Mike Green is bad, or that he couldn't be useful to us. The fact is, we don't need another offensive-minded defenseman right now. We just lost Lidstrom and Stuart. Probably our two most solid defensive D-men. Sure, you could argue Big E was better than Stuart during the second half of the season, but for most of the years he was with us, Stuey was a rock.

We need a reliable defensive D-man. Kronwall is our most veteran defenseman now. As great as he is, he tends to get caught pinching too much. Big E has improved but we'll see how he handles a whole season getting 2nd pair minutes on top of his usual PK minutes. Quincey showed improvement during the playoffs, but he is still an unknown factor at this point, not having played a whole season with us. White is not nearly as good without Lidstrom helping him. Smith and Kindl are inexperienced and prone to turnovers.

We need a rock. Not someone who is injury prone and likes to run and gun.
my standpoint on green and desire to trade for him is not a question of suter vs green but rather suter plus green and in a previous thread "at the very least green"

yes we do not a rock that i agree with

Zetterberg4Captain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-13-2012, 02:17 PM
  #114
LastWordArmy
HFB Partner
 
LastWordArmy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,516
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Holliday View Post
My question is why would the caps do this? They are slim on defense as it is.
I don't think they WILL do it, but they might feel Green's stock is going to keep falling, so getting another piece now, someone who shows up in the playoffs, isn't such a bad idea.

LastWordArmy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-15-2012, 12:32 PM
  #115
InGusWeTrust
hockey.tk
 
InGusWeTrust's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Michigan
Country: United States
Posts: 643
vCash: 500
Green received a qualifying offer today from the Caps at 5million.
It was said in the video on NHL.com in the "10 teams interested in NASH" headline.

InGusWeTrust is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-15-2012, 01:30 PM
  #116
Zetterberg4Captain
Registered User
 
Zetterberg4Captain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Detroit
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,777
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beltatross View Post
Green received a qualifying offer today from the Caps at 5million.
It was said in the video on NHL.com in the "10 teams interested in NASH" headline.
if true, then their is clearly one person on this board who knows way more then evreyone else.....

Zetterberg4Captain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-15-2012, 01:50 PM
  #117
jaster
I pay off the mods.
 
jaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Chicago, IL
Country: United States
Posts: 6,430
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zetterberg4Captain View Post
if true, then their is clearly one person on this board who knows way more then evreyone else.....
I think if the $5M figure is true, then it is obvious that Green's injuries have hurt his value. To not get a raise on his first UFA contract after accomplishing what he did in 2009 and 2010? Something collapsed his value, and I'd bet if he had repeated those seasons in 2011 and 2012, or at least come close, he'd be looking at $7M right now.

jaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-15-2012, 02:05 PM
  #118
Zetterberg4Captain
Registered User
 
Zetterberg4Captain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Detroit
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,777
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaster View Post
I think if the $5M figure is true, then it is obvious that Green's injuries have hurt his value. To not get a raise on his first UFA contract after accomplishing what he did in 2009 and 2010? Something collapsed his value, and I'd bet if he had repeated those seasons in 2011 and 2012, or at least come close, he'd be looking at $7M right now.
his injuries have caused his totals to decrease the last two years

he is not coming off a career year like some other players have in the past when they got their respective terrible contracts

his ability though remains and if the rumours are true, 5 million a season is still a big deal.

Zetterberg4Captain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-15-2012, 02:18 PM
  #119
jaster
I pay off the mods.
 
jaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Chicago, IL
Country: United States
Posts: 6,430
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zetterberg4Captain View Post
his injuries have caused his totals to decrease the last two years

he is not coming off a career year like some other players have in the past when they got their respective terrible contracts

his ability though remains and if the rumours are true, 5 million a season is still a big deal.
His ability remains, but his value has gone down due to injuries and the higher likelihood of future injuries. Otherwise, he would have been paid more

jaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-15-2012, 02:35 PM
  #120
Zetterberg4Captain
Registered User
 
Zetterberg4Captain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Detroit
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,777
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaster View Post
His ability remains, but his value has gone down due to injuries and the higher likelihood of future injuries. Otherwise, he would have been paid more
with the caps having alzner and carlson to boot, unless they one day plan to pay three dmen 6-7 million dollars their was no way he would command that knd of money in Wash.

the fact remains, their were some very nieve or ignorant people on this board who claimed Mike Green was done, finished, and had little to no value, and yet the truth is, he has more value and talent and now salary then any current red wing blueliner to which people in the know recognize and ultimately reward.

Zetterberg4Captain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-15-2012, 03:00 PM
  #121
jaster
I pay off the mods.
 
jaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Chicago, IL
Country: United States
Posts: 6,430
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zetterberg4Captain View Post
with the caps having alzner and carlson to boot, unless they one day plan to pay three dmen 6-7 million dollars their was no way he would command that knd of money in Wash.
We'll never know for sure, but I'll say again: Had Green stayed healthy and continued his level of play from 09 and 10 to 11 and 12, he'd have commanded $7M. Easily. I don't think he'd be worth it, personally, but I'm confident he could have commanded it. Therefor, his injuries have hurt his value.


Quote:
the fact remains, their were some very nieve or ignorant people on this board who claimed Mike Green was done, finished, and had little to no value, and yet the truth is, he has more value and talent and now salary then any current red wing blueliner to which people in the know recognize and ultimately reward.
I agree with you that Green still has a lot of value. I just think it would be higher had he not run into injury troubles.

jaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-15-2012, 03:05 PM
  #122
Zetterberg4Captain
Registered User
 
Zetterberg4Captain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Detroit
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,777
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaster View Post
We'll never know for sure, but I'll say again: Had Green stayed healthy and continued his level of play from 09 and 10 to 11 and 12, he'd have commanded $7M. Easily. I don't think he'd be worth it, personally, but I'm confident he could have commanded it. Therefor, his injuries have hurt his value.




I agree with you that Green still has a lot of value. I just think it would be higher had he not run into injury troubles.
ok we agree on the idea that had he remained healthy and put up points at or close to the same totals of the two previous years he would have commanded more coin.

Zetterberg4Captain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-15-2012, 03:49 PM
  #123
Z40
High Compete Level
 
Z40's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Detroit
Country: United States
Posts: 787
vCash: 500
This is my understanding of the situation.

The Caps tendered Green a qualifying offer of $5 million, since he is a Restricted Free Agent. If he accepts, this only retains the negotiating rights for the Caps, and they have until December 1 to get him signed to a full contract or he is not eligible to play for the rest of the season, and he'll make $5 million this year.

So he could get signed for more than $5 million/year before the season starts. This is just a precautionary measure with the uncertainty of the upcoming new CBA. They want to retain him but they don't know what kind of cap ceiling they're dealing with yet.

If anyone knows more about this stuff, correct me if I'm wrong.

Z40 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:26 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.