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Old
06-07-2012, 01:04 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by bluemandan View Post
If David Jones is worth 4 x $4 M, I don't understand why you are so hesitant about paying Stewart less than that on a one year contract.

Yes, the Blues added Schwartz and Tarasenko, but I am going to guess that they get worked into the line-up as opposed to thrown to the wolves. If we trade a winger, and then a couple of wingers go down during the season, then what?

I think that Stewart could still fetch a mid-first round pick in 2013 during next season even with a slow start. Which is why unless your first couple of options come along, I'm okay with holding onto Stewart for next season.
If they trade a winger and two wingers go down with injuries for the season they will have 8 players (currently signed or rights owned) under contract plus Grachev in the minors who can handle spot duty. 8 wingers for 4 lines is called depth. Yeah, it would be fantastic if they had depth for the depth at every position, massively over-insured. But it's not doable for a budget team.

Let me reverse the question for you – what happens if Pietrangelo goes down? Do they even make the playoffs? I'm saying you're talking about a finite pool of $$ and you have to make tough decisions. The offense will be fine, even with an injury or two. The defense needs another bonafide top defender and that will cost. Trimming Stewart's 3.25M and getting another high quality asset (first round picks are high quality assets) is a smart way to go. It isn't the sole way to go – like I said my first choice is to put him in a package for a top tier defender but I recognize that isn't guaranteed to be attractive to another team (because other teams will look at Stewart and think "meh" as the centerpiece for that kind of player). Whereas a team like the Caps who have two first round picks and are losing Semin and not getting Kuznetsov, for them it makes more sense.

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06-07-2012, 01:12 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemandan View Post
If David Jones is worth 4 x $4 M, I don't understand why you are so hesitant about paying Stewart less than that on a one year contract.

Yes, the Blues added Schwartz and Tarasenko, but I am going to guess that they get worked into the line-up as opposed to thrown to the wolves. If we trade a winger, and then a couple of wingers go down during the season, then what?

I think that Stewart could still fetch a mid-first round pick in 2013 during next season even with a slow start. Which is why unless your first couple of options come along, I'm okay with holding onto Stewart for next season.
I don't think anyone is saying that David Jones is worth 4 x 4. Well, besides some serious Avs homers.

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06-07-2012, 02:37 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by MattyMo35 View Post
I don't think anyone is saying that David Jones is worth 4 x 4. Well, besides some serious Avs homers.
Well, them and the GM of the Avalanche who just signed David Jones to a 4 year, $16 M dollar contract.

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06-07-2012, 02:46 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by PocketNines View Post
If they trade a winger and two wingers go down with injuries for the season they will have 8 players (currently signed or rights owned) under contract plus Grachev in the minors who can handle spot duty. 8 wingers for 4 lines is called depth. Yeah, it would be fantastic if they had depth for the depth at every position, massively over-insured. But it's not doable for a budget team.

Let me reverse the question for you – what happens if Pietrangelo goes down? Do they even make the playoffs? I'm saying you're talking about a finite pool of $$ and you have to make tough decisions. The offense will be fine, even with an injury or two. The defense needs another bonafide top defender and that will cost. Trimming Stewart's 3.25M and getting another high quality asset (first round picks are high quality assets) is a smart way to go. It isn't the sole way to go – like I said my first choice is to put him in a package for a top tier defender but I recognize that isn't guaranteed to be attractive to another team (because other teams will look at Stewart and think "meh" as the centerpiece for that kind of player). Whereas a team like the Caps who have two first round picks and are losing Semin and not getting Kuznetsov, for them it makes more sense.
I understand. I guess looking at your list, I would have keep Stewart at three.

I recognize that the Blues need a quality player to pair with Pietrangelo on the back end. We also need a top six center imo. (Scoring by committee, roll three 'second' lines, need a center for the third 'second' line.)

If the Blues can trade Stewart to fill one of those positions, great. Without knowing what the Blues budget is for next season, I am unwilling to say that the Blues need to dump Stewart's contract to be able to fill those holes.

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06-07-2012, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by bluemandan View Post
I understand. I guess looking at your list, I would have keep Stewart at three.

I recognize that the Blues need a quality player to pair with Pietrangelo on the back end. We also need a top six center imo. (Scoring by committee, roll three 'second' lines, need a center for the third 'second' line.)

If the Blues can trade Stewart to fill one of those positions, great. Without knowing what the Blues budget is for next season, I am unwilling to say that the Blues need to dump Stewart's contract to be able to fill those holes.
JR said in chat today the Blues want to bring Langenbrunner (and Nichol) back, so that's even one more winger. It's true we don't know the budget and we should have a better sense this time next week about what all of our expectations should be. I would love to be able to add a top-two center and a top pair LD and have the financial flexibility to keep everyone/re-sign the RFAs including Stewart but I think that's incredibly optimistic until we hear otherwise.

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06-07-2012, 04:30 PM
  #56
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Never once did I say Stewart provided enough energy to play on the 4th-line. My HOPE is that he gets his ass in gear and can be a top-6 forward again so we can have a true 3rd-line energy line.

Stewart should be given another chance though and certainly has much more potential than Matt D'Agostini. And it's not close. So no, D'Agostini shouldn't be given anything over Stewart.

And yes the David Jones contract is just ridiculous. I've seen Avs games and if you think Stewart's effort is bad, that guy is much worse some games. His career high is 45 points and you never know what games he will show up in.


Last edited by Celtic Note: 06-07-2012 at 07:25 PM. Reason: Lets keep our posts focused on content not each other.
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06-07-2012, 04:40 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by BlueDream View Post
Never once did I say Stewart provided enough energy to play on the 4th-line. My HOPE is that he gets his ass in gear and can be a top-6 forward again so we can have a true 3rd-line energy line.

Stewart should be given another chance though and certainly has much more potential than Matt D'Agostini. And it's not close. So no, D'Agostini shouldn't be given anything over Stewart.

And yes the David Jones contract is just ridiculous. I've seen Avs games and if you think Stewart's effort is bad, that guy is much worse some games. His career high is 45 points and you never know what games he will show up in.
What the hell are you talking about? 4th liner? Huh?

Yes, I have to make up the stuff you're making up that I supposedly made up.


Last edited by Celtic Note: 06-07-2012 at 07:25 PM. Reason: Removed deleted post quote.
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06-07-2012, 04:46 PM
  #58
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And he's not going to be on the 4th line because that line has a specific job (be physical forecheckers, provide energy) and Stewart's game isn't that, BlueDream's pretendland notwithstanding.
Never implied that at all.

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06-07-2012, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by BlueDream View Post
Never implied that at all.
Yes, Stewart's game isn't being a physical forechecker despite your fantasies of such. You say he plays with grit and is a power forward (can't trade him unless they get back "another powerforward" like Clowe), which I completely understand is how you deeply wished the real Chris Stewart played.

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06-07-2012, 05:33 PM
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All that said, I think it's pretty clear your ideas of what Stewart is as a player and what mine are have been pretty substantially stated. You think he plays with grit and has a power game; I think we'd have all noticed such a thing if it were really true and you'd see it in many more pro-Stewart arguments than you do.

As such, probably no need for us to belabor the argument.

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06-08-2012, 07:23 AM
  #61
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IMO : The Blues despertly need a true #1 Center. How about Joe Thorton from the Sharks? Yes THE JOE THORTON who knocked Perron out for more then a year. He will be 33 years old at the start of the 2012-2013 NHL season.

Thoughts?

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06-08-2012, 10:45 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by BleedBlue1967 View Post
IMO : The Blues despertly need a true #1 Center. How about Joe Thorton from the Sharks? Yes THE JOE THORTON who knocked Perron out for more then a year. He will be 33 years old at the start of the 2012-2013 NHL season.

Thoughts?
I disagree. This team won 109 points this year. Second in the Western Conference and had a real chance to win the President's Trophy. In the playoffs, they dismantled Jumbo Joe and the Sharks with their only loss coming in double OT. The next series we ran into a buzz saw of a team that is playing by far the best hockey of any team in the league, and they destroyed us. I don't think it's time to panic and overpay for a 1C. Even if we do, there are quite a few others I would prefer over Thorton.

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06-08-2012, 01:16 PM
  #63
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What the Blues need more than some big deal for a "true #1 center" is for Berglund to be the player he was after the All-Star break for a full year. They need a healthy McDonald to be on his wing because those two click. And if McDonald gets hurt hopefully Schwartz can do some similar things.

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06-08-2012, 06:00 PM
  #64
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What the Blues need more than some big deal for a "true #1 center" is for Berglund to be the player he was after the All-Star break for a full year. They need a healthy McDonald to be on his wing because those two click. And if McDonald gets hurt hopefully Schwartz can do some similar things.
not yet schwatz can. he is going to need to develop his speed, size, strength, and playmaking ability to match the NHL's intensity. this isn't college hockey.

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06-08-2012, 06:19 PM
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not yet schwatz can. he is going to need to develop his speed, size, strength, and playmaking ability to match the NHL's intensity. this isn't college hockey.
I think he can do it but he needs to show more ability to do it before we consider moving Perron. What if Schwartz' size (people say he has speed but I think his speed is average and that he's more shifty than fast) doesn't allow him to be as effective as the lower levels where he dominated (it's more than just college btw, he was the best playmaker on Canada's roster at WJC by a wide margin so he can perform among his peer group). There's been some thinking out loud about parting with Perron for one of these critical pieces and my pushback on that is that until we know Schwartz' top end hockey sense and playmaking skill can supplant McDonald's as he gets late in his career (will be 35 at the end of this year and has had major injury issues), we can't trade the one guy in his young prime who also happens to be easily the most accurate goal scorer on the team. Or, we could, but now we've made a hole to fill a hole.

My point about Berglund was that if he is consistently strong from the getgo this year then there's less need for a "true #1" center. If Backes and Berglund can produce at a 55-60 pt clip while providing strong defense then we can still look for a deal for a center but we're in really good shape. Another year wher Berglund puts up ~40 points and yeah, we need another top-two center without a doubt.

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06-09-2012, 03:49 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by PocketNines View Post
What the Blues need more than some big deal for a "true #1 center" is for Berglund to be the player he was after the All-Star break for a full year. They need a healthy McDonald to be on his wing because those two click. And if McDonald gets hurt hopefully Schwartz can do some similar things.

I am growing impatient with the tease year after year from Bergland. Time to produce this upcoming season along with Stewart, or it's time to move on.

Mcdonald can not stay healthy, is getting up there in age, 35, and this is the final year of his contract. Schwartz ? That's asking alot from a kid IMO but he is talented.

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06-09-2012, 04:10 AM
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Originally Posted by BleedBlue1967 View Post
I am growing impatient with the tease year after year from Bergland. Time to produce this upcoming season along with Stewart, or it's time to move on.

Mcdonald can not stay healthy, is getting up there in age, 35, and this is the final year of his contract. Schwartz ? That's asking alot from a kid IMO but he is talented.
I feel pretty good about Schwartz' chances to reach his potential, but at the same time there's still a development leap he has to make. McDonald passing the scoring line LW role to Schwartz is a transition I'd wait on before dealing Perron, personally.

As for Berglund, I was a strong critic earlier in the year but after the All-Star break he played with a lot more drive and purpose and you have to acknowledge that when it's happening. Even when he wasn't scoring he was keeping possession in the opposing zone and wearing down the defense. But you're absolutely right – he hasn't shown the consistency yet to be the guy he needs to be. Maybe this is all we'll ever get from him and he'll just be a really good two-way #3C, a Michael Handzus type. Everyone trying to add Jordan Staal in a proposed trade is essentially admitting they're not expecting some breakthrough 60+ point season from Berglund next year. If that were to happen the need for a player like Staal or some other bonafide top-two center dries up.

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06-09-2012, 05:36 AM
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I feel pretty good about Schwartz' chances to reach his potential, but at the same time there's still a development leap he has to make. McDonald passing the scoring line LW role to Schwartz is a transition I'd wait on before dealing Perron, personally.

As for Berglund, I was a strong critic earlier in the year but after the All-Star break he played with a lot more drive and purpose and you have to acknowledge that when it's happening. Even when he wasn't scoring he was keeping possession in the opposing zone and wearing down the defense. But you're absolutely right – he hasn't shown the consistency yet to be the guy he needs to be. Maybe this is all we'll ever get from him and he'll just be a really good two-way #3C, a Michael Handzus type. Everyone trying to add Jordan Staal in a proposed trade is essentially admitting they're not expecting some breakthrough 60+ point season from Berglund next year. If that were to happen the need for a player like Staal or some other bonafide top-two center dries up.
I'd like to see the Blues aquire Jorden Staal- however, it seems Jordan Staal is hoping for a trade to Carolina to reunite with brother Eric? Anyway, it's shaping up to be a interesting offseason with the entry draft 2 weeks away then the free agency period a week later.

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06-15-2012, 03:56 PM
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IMO : The Blues despertly need a true #1 Center. How about Joe Thorton from the Sharks? Yes THE JOE THORTON who knocked Perron out for more then a year. He will be 33 years old at the start of the 2012-2013 NHL season.

Thoughts?
My problem with Joe Thornton is the kind of person he is. I can respect the gritty kind of game but he is just classless as a person. He tried to pick a fight with Nicklas Lidstrom... really? If you can't have respect for one of the games legends like Lidstrom then it's pretty clear to me what kind of person he is. I think John Tortorella hit the nail on the head when he spoke about Joe this year. Thornton is a real tough guy as long as the person he is going after isn't a fighter. Remember when Ol' Glass Joe ate one hammer from Lindros and laid there all busted up. I liked that.

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06-15-2012, 04:04 PM
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My problem with Joe Thornton is the kind of person he is. I can respect the gritty kind of game but he is just classless as a person. He tried to pick a fight with Nicklas Lidstrom... really? If you can't have respect for one of the games legends like Lidstrom then it's pretty clear to me what kind of person he is. I think John Tortorella hit the nail on the head when he spoke about Joe this year. Thornton is a real tough guy as long as the person he is going after isn't a fighter. Remember when Ol' Glass Joe ate one hammer from Lindros and laid there all busted up. I liked that.
Thornton is a great guy off the ice, he is not classless.

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06-15-2012, 05:57 PM
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Thornton is a great guy off the ice, he is not classless.
The Joe Thornton that attacks and cheap-shots non-fighters to the likes of Perron, Sedin, Lidstrom, Datsyuk, Sulander and Desjardins on the ice and then off the ice makes comments about the Bruins being favored, calls the New York Rangers the softest team they played and gets arrested for assaulting a police officer? Playing tough guy to non-fighters, trash-talking during interviews and getting arrested for trying to fight the police, that reminds of somebody.... Sean Avery.

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06-15-2012, 06:40 PM
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If you take Armstrong's recent quotes at face value, it sounds like we should expect Oshie, Perron and Stewart to all be with the team next year. Yet there remain team needs and an abundance (overabundance?) of wingers. I can't imagine the team parting with Tarasenko, but could Schwartz perhaps be a potential trade piece?

He projects to probably start the year in Peoria this season, but could also be a 3rd liner under the right conditions. I'd have mixed feelings about trading him....but in truth he probably isn't going to be a major contributor to a Cup run THIS season.

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06-15-2012, 06:52 PM
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It would be retarded to trade Schwartz. Are you comfortable with 3 former concussed players on the left side and one of them will likely retire soon?

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06-15-2012, 06:56 PM
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The Joe Thornton that attacks and cheap-shots non-fighters to the likes of Perron, Sedin, Lidstrom, Datsyuk, Sulander and Desjardins on the ice and then off the ice makes comments about the Bruins being favored, calls the New York Rangers the softest team they played and gets arrested for assaulting a police officer? Playing tough guy to non-fighters, trash-talking during interviews and getting arrested for trying to fight the police, that reminds of somebody.... Sean Avery.
Ask much as I like Thorntons game I agree with you about his personality. Hes a punk. He always wants to fight weaker, smaller guys but always skates away against legit fighters. He has also had several off ice incidents that make me question what kind of person he is. That being said, I would still like to have him on the blues.

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06-15-2012, 07:19 PM
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It would be retarded to trade Schwartz. Are you comfortable with 3 former concussed players on the left side and one of them will likely retire soon?
More NHL players have had a concussion at one point or other than those that haven't.

Anyway, I didn't say "give him away". You have to acknowledge that there would be an important piece coming back.

I'm not advocating trading Schwartz. I'm just trying to predict what I think Armstrong may be thinking.

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