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JayBo to Philly or Montreal

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Old
06-15-2012, 03:26 PM
  #126
Drydenwasthebest
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Originally Posted by Medium Rare View Post
ah right the whole lets judge a defenseman based on stats argument.

Bouwmeester is not the same defenseman he was when he came to Calgary. Contrary to HF belief Bouwmeester developed into a defensive shut down defenseman while in Calgary. Just because his offensive stats dipped because of his role does not be all of his game stagnated. Anyone watching Bouwmeester game in and game out saw alot of progression in his defensive game.

Also note, that most of us do not want to trade Bouwmeester, only a handful of Flames fans do, they are also the same ones that trash Iginla at every turn.
A stay at home defenceman is not worth 6.68 million per season unless he is also an offensive player as well. By the way, I didn't trash Bouwmeester, I said he would be on our 2nd pairing. Gorges is far better than him in a shut down capacity, Subban is better all around, and Markov, if healthy, is better all around. That means we are trading for a 6.68 4th defenceman.

Keep in mind, my post was a reply to the brilliant statement by a Flames fan that JayBo would be Montreal's best defender, with Subban maybe being close to him and Gorges not even close. Read what your team's fans say before jumping on someone defending his own team without even attacking your team. JayBo is becoming a great defensive shut down guy. He would be terrific to have in that role if we didn't have someone better and cheaper in that role already. He is not worth 6.68 million to simply be a shut down guy. Those are all valid reasons for not wanting him in Montreal and are not attacks on who he is or on the Flames as a team.

The stats help in the demonstration of why one or more players are better or worse than others. I do watch lots of hockey, and I do agree that JayBo is becoming a defensive beast. The stats do not lie or go against any aspect of that. The stats do help support what I have seen with my own eyes in regard to how well Gorges, Subban, and a healthy Markov play when compared to what JayBo has become.

I do regret the whole "jockstrap" comment, but look to what your fellow fan states before jumping on a Montreal fan for proving why JayBo would NOT be our "best" defenceman.

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Old
06-15-2012, 03:37 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
A stay at home defenceman is not worth 6.68 million per season unless he is also an offensive player as well. By the way, I didn't trash Bouwmeester, I said he would be on our 2nd pairing. Gorges is far better than him in a shut down capacity, Subban is better all around, and Markov, if healthy, is better all around. That means we are trading for a 6.68 4th defenceman.

Keep in mind, my post was a reply to the brilliant statement by a Flames fan that JayBo would be Montreal's best defender, with Subban maybe being close to him and Gorges not even close. Read what your team's fans say before jumping on someone defending his own team without even attacking your team. JayBo is becoming a great defensive shut down guy. He would be terrific to have in that role if we didn't have someone better and cheaper in that role already. He is not worth 6.68 million to simply be a shut down guy. Those are all valid reasons for not wanting him in Montreal and are not attacks on who he is or on the Flames as a team.

The stats help in the demonstration of why one or more players are better or worse than others. I do watch lots of hockey, and I do agree that JayBo is becoming a defensive beast. The stats do not lie or go against any aspect of that. The stats do help support what I have seen with my own eyes in regard to how well Gorges, Subban, and a healthy Markov play when compared to what JayBo has become.

I do regret the whole "jockstrap" comment, but look to what your fellow fan states before jumping on a Montreal fan for proving why JayBo would NOT be our "best" defenceman.
I think "best" is too subjective of a term.

But If Bouwmeester was traded to pretty much any team he would be playing against other teams top players and playing 25 minutes a night.

He might not be an elite shutdown defenseman and he is overpaid (not by as much as many make him out to be though) but with what is being tossed around to UFAs these days his contract looks better every day.

On Montreal he may or may not be the best, it wold depend what you value in a defenseman. It would be like here in Calgary. One faction thinks Giordano is the "best" because they value his physical game, shot blocking and visible emotion, others say Bouwmeester is the "best" because he plays the tough minutes effectively (very effectively if you consider he carried Butler who was WAY over his head in that role). I think the situation would end up being similar.

I find Bouwmeester gets very underrated on these boards because people have this false notion that the only thing he can do is skate well. They question his heart, which is crazy to me because he has to have a strong passion to never allow himself to miss a game in this long because every player suffers injuries. They also ignore the fact he has started playing a bit meaner the last couple years.

Another problem is people taking that stupid Peca video as gospel as if he speaks for every NHL player. The only reason a player would "enjoy" playing Bouwmeester is if they were afraid to be punished physically, which I truly believe Peca was after Tucker destroyed his knee.

As for the guy you quoted since I never saw his post, I would assume I have him on ignore and likely for good reason.

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Old
06-15-2012, 04:23 PM
  #128
Drydenwasthebest
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Originally Posted by Medium Rare View Post
I think "best" is too subjective of a term.

But If Bouwmeester was traded to pretty much any team he would be playing against other teams top players and playing 25 minutes a night.

He might not be an elite shutdown defenseman and he is overpaid (not by as much as many make him out to be though) but with what is being tossed around to UFAs these days his contract looks better every day.

On Montreal he may or may not be the best, it wold depend what you value in a defenseman. It would be like here in Calgary. One faction thinks Giordano is the "best" because they value his physical game, shot blocking and visible emotion, others say Bouwmeester is the "best" because he plays the tough minutes effectively (very effectively if you consider he carried Butler who was WAY over his head in that role). I think the situation would end up being similar.

I find Bouwmeester gets very underrated on these boards because people have this false notion that the only thing he can do is skate well. They question his heart, which is crazy to me because he has to have a strong passion to never allow himself to miss a game in this long because every player suffers injuries. They also ignore the fact he has started playing a bit meaner the last couple years.

Another problem is people taking that stupid Peca video as gospel as if he speaks for every NHL player. The only reason a player would "enjoy" playing Bouwmeester is if they were afraid to be punished physically, which I truly believe Peca was after Tucker destroyed his knee.

As for the guy you quoted since I never saw his post, I would assume I have him on ignore and likely for good reason.
I agree with a lot of your post. The bolded part is where we disagree because Subban and Gorges are the guys who play against the other team's top guys for us. JayBo would NOT supplant either of them in that role. He would be an incredible help shutting down players, but he would be doing it as our second pairing shutdown guy. That is why he is not worth it to our team due to his cap hit. Nothing is meant to demean or diminish JayBo as a player on your team, he is just not worth 6.68 milion to be a second pair guy on our team. Heck, Jackman or Allen are UFA who will do what JayBo can do and will not come close to getting 6.68 million this off season.

So, again, if we were to try and get JayBo, a large contract of some sort would have to be going back your way to ensure we could fit him into our team budget.

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06-15-2012, 05:14 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
I agree with a lot of your post. The bolded part is where we disagree because Subban and Gorges are the guys who play against the other team's top guys for us. JayBo would NOT supplant either of them in that role. He would be an incredible help shutting down players, but he would be doing it as our second pairing shutdown guy. That is why he is not worth it to our team due to his cap hit. Nothing is meant to demean or diminish JayBo as a player on your team, he is just not worth 6.68 milion to be a second pair guy on our team. Heck, Jackman or Allen are UFA who will do what JayBo can do and will not come close to getting 6.68 million this off season.

So, again, if we were to try and get JayBo, a large contract of some sort would have to be going back your way to ensure we could fit him into our team budget.
We will have to agree to disagree, I know on my team I would much rather have Bouwmeester playing a shutdown role than Subban, but maybe its just me.

Irregardless Bouwmeester is likely more valuable to the Flames than he is to most other clubs and trading him for the sake of trading him is a stupid thing to do.

Also I have to say I am excited to have Bouwmeester play under a different coach. I think he is the Flame that will benefit most from Hartley.

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06-15-2012, 05:57 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Medium Rare View Post
We will have to agree to disagree, I know on my team I would much rather have Bouwmeester playing a shutdown role than Subban, but maybe its just me.

Irregardless Bouwmeester is likely more valuable to the Flames than he is to most other clubs and trading him for the sake of trading him is a stupid thing to do.

Also I have to say I am excited to have Bouwmeester play under a different coach. I think he is the Flame that will benefit most from Hartley.
Don't get me wrong, I prefer JayBo to Subban in a pure shutdown role as well. The issue is that Subban does so much more than just shutdown other players. I would love JayBo in a shutdown role, but not at the 6.68 million he makes.

I agree that Calgary should keep him, and he will greatly improve under Hartley. I think that, if any coach can help get Calgary into the playoffs, it will be Hartley. I was hoping Montreal would hire him. Calgary will love the guy. Good luck to one of my favorite Western Conference teams!

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06-15-2012, 06:01 PM
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
I agree with a lot of your post. The bolded part is where we disagree because Subban and Gorges are the guys who play against the other team's top guys for us. JayBo would NOT supplant either of them in that role. He would be an incredible help shutting down players, but he would be doing it as our second pairing shutdown guy. That is why he is not worth it to our team due to his cap hit. Nothing is meant to demean or diminish JayBo as a player on your team, he is just not worth 6.68 milion to be a second pair guy on our team. Heck, Jackman or Allen are UFA who will do what JayBo can do and will not come close to getting 6.68 million this off season.

So, again, if we were to try and get JayBo, a large contract of some sort would have to be going back your way to ensure we could fit him into our team budget.
You only say that because you are far more familiar with the players you see on a consistent basis, and that's fair to a certain degree. Likewise could be said for us here, as I would currently play both Giordano and Bouwmeester ahead of both Subban and Gorges in the depth if they were to be acquired by Calgary.

My reasoning would be as follows;
I would argue that Jay Bouwmeester would become your best "two way defender". His offense may have tried up slightly here in Calgary but he has still developed into our primary shutdown defender who can put up 30 points a season in that role. As of now I would definitely take Bouwmeester's stability on the top pairing over Subban's erratic and inconsistent play at this point in his young career. In regards to Gorges, I would put Bouwmeester ahead of him due to his ability to transition the puck and cover a ton of ice due to his skating ability. He simply has the larger toolbox to be a more productive player offensively.

It's extremely tough to say who is the better defensive player if you can't directly compare them to each other, and specifically in this case when they play such different styles. Bouwmeester relies upon his elite skating and strong positioning/stick work to keep defenders to the outside (for the most part) while Gorges utilizes his physical tools to a much larger degree and is also more willing to sacrifice his body. Like medium said previously it all comes down to how you specifically evaluate a players defensive ability.

I appreciate you listing reasons as to why you would not be interested in acquiring him however instead of posting the usual shortsighted drivel that plagues all things Bouwmeester.

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06-15-2012, 08:01 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by HighLifeMan View Post
You only say that because you are far more familiar with the players you see on a consistent basis, and that's fair to a certain degree. Likewise could be said for us here, as I would currently play both Giordano and Bouwmeester ahead of both Subban and Gorges in the depth if they were to be acquired by Calgary.

My reasoning would be as follows;
I would argue that Jay Bouwmeester would become your best "two way defender". His offense may have tried up slightly here in Calgary but he has still developed into our primary shutdown defender who can put up 30 points a season in that role. As of now I would definitely take Bouwmeester's stability on the top pairing over Subban's erratic and inconsistent play at this point in his young career. In regards to Gorges, I would put Bouwmeester ahead of him due to his ability to transition the puck and cover a ton of ice due to his skating ability. He simply has the larger toolbox to be a more productive player offensively.

It's extremely tough to say who is the better defensive player if you can't directly compare them to each other, and specifically in this case when they play such different styles. Bouwmeester relies upon his elite skating and strong positioning/stick work to keep defenders to the outside (for the most part) while Gorges utilizes his physical tools to a much larger degree and is also more willing to sacrifice his body. Like medium said previously it all comes down to how you specifically evaluate a players defensive ability.

I appreciate you listing reasons as to why you would not be interested in acquiring him however instead of posting the usual shortsighted drivel that plagues all things Bouwmeester.
I am more than happy complimenting JayBo and Calgary. I like both. I also have no issue with how you view your players and ours. I do think Subban and Gorges are better, but it is arguable in either case. Thanks for the fun discussion.

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06-15-2012, 10:40 PM
  #133
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Why would Mtl want Jbo? Subban+Gorges is an excellent top pairing and they have prospects like Bealieu who can fill out the top 4.
In what Universe is Gorges in a top pairing? We have Subban but then with Markov we don't know the shape he is going to be in. Diaz and Weber are useless, Emelin not ready for top spot. As for a Beaulieu, he'll be in Hamilton. We need defensemen bad.

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06-16-2012, 02:53 AM
  #134
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I think Washington and Calgary could be good trading partners if Jay-bo is involved.

Something like:

Calgary:
RFA rights to John Carlson
Marcus Johansson

Washington:
Bouwmeester
UFA Rights to Jokinen

Calgary improves their offensive production from their d and gets depth at center (not to mention younger all round)
Washington solidifies their secondary scoring and a stabilizing force on d

Seems like a win-win, especially if Washington is in "win now" mode, which they seem to be.

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06-16-2012, 02:57 AM
  #135
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we really have no need for another winger. we we need a top 6 centerman, I don't see the Flames asking for any less.
good luck with that. He isnt worth any of our top 6 centermen

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06-16-2012, 01:49 PM
  #136
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A few Twitter accounts are saying Montreal trying to acquire Jackman and sign him. Creasy among others.

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06-16-2012, 01:50 PM
  #137
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A few Twitter accounts are saying Montreal trying to acquire Jackman and sign him. Creasy among others.
Ric, or Barrett ? Any reliable twitters ?

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06-16-2012, 01:55 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Rockmorton View Post
I think Washington and Calgary could be good trading partners if Jay-bo is involved.

Something like:

Calgary:
RFA rights to John Carlson
Marcus Johansson

Washington:
Bouwmeester
UFA Rights to Jokinen

Calgary improves their offensive production from their d and gets depth at center (not to mention younger all round)
Washington solidifies their secondary scoring and a stabilizing force on d

Seems like a win-win, especially if Washington is in "win now" mode, which they seem to be.

To me, the deal seems awful.

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06-16-2012, 02:01 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by Left Circle OneTimer View Post
good luck with that. He isnt worth any of our top 6 centermen
I never said he was worth it did I? In fact I never commented on his "worth" at all.

Just expressing that trading Bouwmeester away from our weak defense for a wings (which is our biggest strength) doesn't make sense.

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06-16-2012, 02:03 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by HighLifeMan View Post
You only say that because you are far more familiar with the players you see on a consistent basis, and that's fair to a certain degree. Likewise could be said for us here, as I would currently play both Giordano and Bouwmeester ahead of both Subban and Gorges in the depth if they were to be acquired by Calgary.

My reasoning would be as follows;
I would argue that Jay Bouwmeester would become your best "two way defender". His offense may have tried up slightly here in Calgary but he has still developed into our primary shutdown defender who can put up 30 points a season in that role. As of now I would definitely take Bouwmeester's stability on the top pairing over Subban's erratic and inconsistent play at this point in his young career. In regards to Gorges, I would put Bouwmeester ahead of him due to his ability to transition the puck and cover a ton of ice due to his skating ability. He simply has the larger toolbox to be a more productive player offensively.

It's extremely tough to say who is the better defensive player if you can't directly compare them to each other, and specifically in this case when they play such different styles. Bouwmeester relies upon his elite skating and strong positioning/stick work to keep defenders to the outside (for the most part) while Gorges utilizes his physical tools to a much larger degree and is also more willing to sacrifice his body. Like medium said previously it all comes down to how you specifically evaluate a players defensive ability.

I appreciate you listing reasons as to why you would not be interested in acquiring him however instead of posting the usual shortsighted drivel that plagues all things Bouwmeester.
This is not true at all. In the first 25-30 games of the season that may have been the case last year but after that he was a ROCK. Basically no one could get passed him unless they dumped the puck and if they tried to beat him to the outside along the boards he would slam them into it or attempt an open ice highlight reel hit which would make them lose the puck immediately upon knowing his intentions. That's also where his ice time shot up to 25-28 minutes on a game to game basis. I'll take Subban 10 out of 10 times over JayBo, and also 98% of other defensemen in this league as both a shutdown D-man and as a PPQB.

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06-16-2012, 02:05 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by Analyzer View Post
Ric, or Barrett ? Any reliable twitters ?
Blues Barrett Jackman. Not sure how reliable source is. Sounds like an Eklund type looking at his back twits but you never know. Do a search Creasy and twitter..you should find it

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06-16-2012, 02:08 PM
  #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmorton View Post
I think Washington and Calgary could be good trading partners if Jay-bo is involved.

Something like:

Calgary:
RFA rights to John Carlson
Marcus Johansson

Washington:
Bouwmeester
UFA Rights to Jokinen

Calgary improves their offensive production from their d and gets depth at center (not to mention younger all round)
Washington solidifies their secondary scoring and a stabilizing force on d

Seems like a win-win, especially if Washington is in "win now" mode, which they seem to be.
As a Calgary fan I take that and run.

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06-16-2012, 02:15 PM
  #143
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As a Calgary fan I take that and run.
My thoughts to, don't know if the Caps do that but I would.

Then we use the cap space to sign Semin.

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06-16-2012, 02:29 PM
  #144
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I would have no interest in JayBo for the Habs unless Kaberle was going the other way, at least.

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06-16-2012, 03:36 PM
  #145
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Bouw ran from the cameras in Florida, there's no way he could handle Montreal's pressure.

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06-16-2012, 04:09 PM
  #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmorton View Post
I think Washington and Calgary could be good trading partners if Jay-bo is involved.

Something like:

Calgary:
RFA rights to John Carlson
Marcus Johansson

Washington:
Bouwmeester
UFA Rights to Jokinen

Calgary improves their offensive production from their d and gets depth at center (not to mention younger all round)
Washington solidifies their secondary scoring and a stabilizing force on d

Seems like a win-win, especially if Washington is in "win now" mode, which they seem to be.
Holy crap, send this to the GMs. Get this done. Right now.

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06-16-2012, 04:35 PM
  #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmorton View Post
I think Washington and Calgary could be good trading partners if Jay-bo is involved.

Something like:

Calgary:
RFA rights to John Carlson
Marcus Johansson

Washington:
Bouwmeester
UFA Rights to Jokinen

Calgary improves their offensive production from their d and gets depth at center (not to mention younger all round)
Washington solidifies their secondary scoring and a stabilizing force on d

Seems like a win-win, especially if Washington is in "win now" mode, which they seem to be.
What is this? The Caps give up the two pieces with the most worth.

Carlson has played two full seasons and outscored Bouwmeester in both. Not to mention he's younger at a lower hit.

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06-16-2012, 04:53 PM
  #148
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JBouw had the toughest defensive starts on Calgary's blueline last year. I think if he was relied on more as a two-way PMD without giving him the "shutdown minutes" he would do really well.

I'd like him on Philly if his cap-hit wasn't that high. Spending $13mil on a Timonen-Bouwmeester pairing would be brutal especially with our other defensemen making $3.5mil+. Just one of those things where it could work if he made more like $5mil..

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06-18-2012, 05:13 AM
  #149
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Originally Posted by viper0220 View Post
Eklund saying Philly and Montreal really interested in Jay Bouwmeester.

"The Flyers, Canadiens, Capitals, and Hurricanes all may have interest in Jay Bouwmeester".

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Eklun...s-Iggy/1/44944


Eklund is a loser his rumours are plain stupidity.

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