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Summer Moves Part 3. All speculation here.

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Old
06-16-2012, 01:45 PM
  #976
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
That's BS in my opinion.

Go look through the box scores of each game since that line was united March 10th against Ottawa

Show me the 2 defensemen that were on the ice for every goal that the Ennis line was on the ice for (GF or GA)

Im not doing the leg work on this one... someone prove me wrong
I didnt write the thing.

Quote:
Tyler Ennis became the team's No. 1 center during the last 15 or so games. Starting him in the offensive zone
as much as possible is the right way to go. While holding down the No. 1 role, he was almost always paired
with Foligno and Stafford.
http://e9b8db0d-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites.g...attredirects=0

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06-16-2012, 01:51 PM
  #977
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That guy also thought that Myers should be the Sabres' shutdown defenseman because his GA/60 was under 2, but totally ignored the fact that it came against weak competition. The four other contributors to that writeup (correctly) called Ennis what he was, a mid-line offensive specialist who had a ton of success in that role.

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06-16-2012, 01:54 PM
  #978
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
it's just part of the dream scenario... after acquiring Staal... we move up for Galchenyuk...

Staal 23 yrs old
Hodgson 22 yrs old
Galchenyuk 18 yrs old

Overpay to put a new foundation in place?

Pominville and Adam for Staal and Kennedy
Roy, Armia, Weber for Bobby Ryan
Ennis, Pysyk, 12, 42, for Galchenyuk

Leino-Staal-Ryan
Vanek-Galchenyuk-Stafford
Foligno-Hodgson-Kennedy

If Regier could go forward with Staal, Galchenyuk, and Hodgson? As much as I like the way Ennis plays and his attitude, I'm all for it. Throw in 21 for Clutterbuck, and switch up the lines a bit.

Leino - Staal - Ryan
Vanek - Hodgson - Clutterbuck
Foligno - Galchenyuk - Stafford

And run them the same way Ruff did the lines in March.

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06-16-2012, 01:58 PM
  #979
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Holy cow?!?!?!?!

Really people?

Ennis is right now a ONE DIMENSIONAL PLAYER....offensive. This is the same stuff posted on the Staal thread. Please tell me how, or give me one instance in the history of the NHL where a 5'8' 150lb center was matched up and succeeded against the other teams top center????? Ennis lacks the muscle to be a defensive, two way player. That's fact.

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06-16-2012, 01:58 PM
  #980
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
i'm locked into the "Staal/Galchenyuk" Combo offseason... And everything aside from Myers is available in trade to make those 2 acquisitions.
I'm more locked into Staal, mentally. Staal - Hodgson - Ennis is a group I'd be happy with. Taking nothing away from Galchenyuk - I'd love for Buffalo to acquire him. I think it's a mistake for Columbus to pass on him. Regardless of the picks they could get, they should stay and take him. Which is why it makes sense for Buffalo to trade up as well. Though I can see Howson getting locked into Galchenyuk, as well, and just rejecting all offers.

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06-16-2012, 02:06 PM
  #981
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Once again, the final 6 weeks of a failed season, leaves the fan base over believing in the current roster

I love Ennis in the 2006 Derek Roy role (3rd line, easy minutes,etc) which is the role he was wildly successful in down the stretch this season. But that success has too many believing he is on a path to stardom as a top line center... he's not.

Ennis does NOT have all the tools. He's lacking tools in every area of the game.
Me too. Comparing to the 06-07 teams:

A Staal line would be similar to the Drury line, a two-way shutdown line that scored.

A Hodgson-Vanek line facing the best defensive pairing, like the Briere line.

FES playing like Roy's line did.

That would be too much for most teams to handle.

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06-16-2012, 02:11 PM
  #982
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I think.... *gasp* Ennis had sheltered minutes for some of his successful stint at the end of the year AND he has the potential to be an offensive #1 as he develops!

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06-16-2012, 02:21 PM
  #983
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SabresFanNorthPortFL View Post
Holy cow?!?!?!?!

Really people?

Ennis is right now a ONE DIMENSIONAL PLAYER....offensive. This is the same stuff posted on the Staal thread. Please tell me how, or give me one instance in the history of the NHL where a 5'8' 150lb center was matched up and succeeded against the other teams top center????? Ennis lacks the muscle to be a defensive, two way player. That's fact.
danny briere vs. everyone he has been matched against in the playoffs since 2006.

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06-16-2012, 02:34 PM
  #984
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SabresFanNorthPortFL View Post
Holy cow?!?!?!?!

Really people?

Ennis is right now a ONE DIMENSIONAL PLAYER....offensive. This is the same stuff posted on the Staal thread. Please tell me how, or give me one instance in the history of the NHL where a 5'8' 150lb center was matched up and succeeded against the other teams top center????? Ennis lacks the muscle to be a defensive, two way player. That's fact.
Please, he has been 150lbs for 5 years from 18 to 23 he is still 150lbs? And he doesnt play small, he wins a lot of battles.

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06-16-2012, 02:57 PM
  #985
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Time to expose some stainless steel testicles.

Trade up to #2.

Trade up to #3.

Draft Yakupov and Galchenyuk. Murray is most likely going #1.

I know this is a total pipe dream. But we have the assets to pull it off. We don't have the balls, unfortunately.

To Columbus: Vanek, Roy, #21 (Taking some money back is probably necessary. I'd also include Catenacci if necessary)

To Montreal: Stafford, Pysyk, #12

To Buffalo: #2 and #3

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06-16-2012, 03:12 PM
  #986
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Originally Posted by heartsabres View Post
WAS? whats with the was?

With Jame´s definition we wont know who the second line center is until after the game and we look at the stats sheet.

When I watch a hockey game I believe who is the second line center is who Lindy Ruff puts out there not only the most after the first line center but different situations when the first line center is unavailable. Of course there are other factors such as your third or fourth line center being a better faceoff man or playing short handed but I believe the best players usually get the most ice time but like I said there are situations that call for different.

If the sabres have 2 scoring lines next year and two checking lines Ennis would be a top 6 if they roll three scoring lines then where Ennis Starts the season and where Ennis finishes the season could be anywhere from first line to third line but I believe he has the talent that Lindy Ruff will rely on.
Foligno-Ennis-Stafford was the 3rd line after March 10th when they were put together...

If you Disagree... then tell me what Line was Thomas Vanek on, and what line was Jason Pominville on?
(Leino-Roy-Pommer and Vanek-Hodgson-Tropp were the other 2 lines)

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06-16-2012, 03:25 PM
  #987
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Foligno-Ennis-Stafford was the 3rd line after March 10th when they were put together...

If you Disagree... then tell me what Line was Thomas Vanek on, and what line was Jason Pominville on?
(Leino-Roy-Pommer and Vanek-Hodgson-Tropp were the other 2 lines)
What exactly are you basing this on?

Ennis averaged 18+min a night after that line was put together. Thats with no PK ice time and playing on the 2nd PP unit.

Whereas Hodgson averaged 17:30 with PK ice time and a good chunk of time on the top PP unit.

Vanek averaged 16:30 in ice time from that day forward and was one of our PP ice time leaders. For the season he averaged 1min more than Ennis on the PP.


Ennis definately didn't center our top line, that would be the Leino/Roy/Pommer line. But I thought it was understood that the Hodgson line was the 3rd line. They played slightly less than either of the other two lines.


++ Btw to those that say they would like a Hodgson/Vanek line to face the other teams top defenders. I hope you realize thats up to the other team.


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06-16-2012, 03:33 PM
  #988
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Originally Posted by Fatal System Ehrhoff View Post
I think.... *gasp* Ennis had sheltered minutes for some of his successful stint at the end of the year AND he has the potential to be an offensive #1 as he develops!
Depends what you mean by #1...
Play top minutes? sure...
Be a #1 on a contender? nope...

I guess my question (since i respect your opinion), is what did Ennis do to make you believe he can be a #1 on a contender?

I just don't see enough to believe that he'll survive a series where he sees Chara-Boychuck-Marchand-Begeron-Seguin on a shift to shift basis...or McDonagh-Girardi-Callahan-Richards-Dubinsky.... I think he would get dominated at both ends of the ice.

I don't think he has the chops defensively to play center, on a contender... and I think he lacks the size and strength to physically compete against shut down pairings and elite 2 way playoff lines.


Last edited by Jame: 06-16-2012 at 03:50 PM.
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06-16-2012, 03:33 PM
  #989
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Originally Posted by Der Jaeger View Post
Me too. Comparing to the 06-07 teams:

A Staal line would be similar to the Drury line, a two-way shutdown line that scored.

A Hodgson-Vanek line facing the best defensive pairing, like the Briere line.

FES playing like Roy's line did.

That would be too much for most teams to handle.
I agree. It was a set-up that worked for Buffalo before, and we're one center away from being able to run that kind of model again. The 3C system doesn't just work for Pittsburgh because they have 2 of the best in the world -- it works because nobody has enough defensive lines to match up against that many lines with skill.

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06-16-2012, 03:44 PM
  #990
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Originally Posted by liquid swords View Post
danny briere vs. everyone he has been matched against in the playoffs since 2006.
Briere has been in a support role in Philly... and has feasted in the playoffs playing in a very similar role as to the one Ennis was in at the end of the season.

Claude Giroux was taking the top line shifts, and Couturier was taking the tough defensive matchups (he shadowed the Malkin/Neal line the entire series. Briere got to feast on easy minutes...

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06-16-2012, 03:49 PM
  #991
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What exactly are you basing this on?

Ennis averaged 18+min a night after that line was put together. Thats with no PK ice time and playing on the 2nd PP unit.

Whereas Hodgson averaged 17:30 with PK ice time and a good chunk of time on the top PP unit.

Vanek averaged 16:30 in ice time from that day forward and was one of our PP ice time leaders. For the season he averaged 1min more than Ennis on the PP.


Ennis definately didn't center our top line, that would be the Leino/Roy/Pommer line. But I thought it was understood that the Hodgson line was the 3rd line. They played slightly less than either of the other two lines.

++ Btw to those that say they would like a Hodgson/Vanek line to face the other teams top defenders. I hope you realize thats up to the other team.
I'm basing it on role, matchups, QoC, zone starts, etc.... not time on ice.

I'm basing it on the Drury line being the #2 line in the co caps days, and Roy being the #3 line... even though the Roy line saw more ES ice time.

We can debate the Hodgson vs Ennis roles, (we agree on the Roy line being #1). But if you rely on ice time as the primary factor... then we disagree in definition and can leave it at that.

(This is no different then the Campbell vs Lydallinder arguments of the past..."who is the #1 pair"??? One plays more minutes, the other has the shutdown matchup)

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06-16-2012, 04:13 PM
  #992
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Depends what you mean by #1...
Play top minutes? sure...
Be a #1 on a contender? nope...

I guess my question (since i respect your opinion), is what did Ennis do to make you believe he can be a #1 on a contender?
As he is right now? He's still got a ways to go. But given the transition back to what his natural position is and the flashes of outright incredible offensive talent that I don't think anyone will debate, I'd argue that with proper coaching and training he has the potential to develop his offensive game to that of a #1 (in the same way that Thornton/Spezza are pretty much offensive specialists with acceptable D). That is not to say that he'll be as good as Spezza, much less Thornton, but his skills at 22 are remarkable.

Quote:
I just don't see enough to believe that he'll survive a series where he sees Chara-Boychuck-Marchand-Begeron-Seguin on a shift to shift basis...or McDonagh-Girardi-Callahan-Richards-Dubinsky.... I think he would get dominated at both ends of the ice.
Right now? I think you underestimate him in the offensive zone, but overall I'd agree with you. A year from now, though? Two or three? I don't think his skills and development have plateaued.

Quote:
I don't think he has the chops defensively to play center, on a contender... and I think he lacks the size and strength to physically compete against shut down pairings and elite 2 way playoff lines.
His size is and will always be a disadvantage. But Savard was 5'10'' 180lbs for a while and was able to have a couple excellent years while playing acceptable at worst D. Ennis has had a similar start to his NHL career and I'd be thrilled to see him match it.

e: To be clear, that's what I view his ceiling as. It's on coaching and his own drive, I guess

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06-16-2012, 04:15 PM
  #993
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Just conceptually from an NHL coaching perspective, if FES starts ripping up teams while VHP is kept in check, teams won't just accept that over the course of a season. I find it hard to believe that for 20 or so games coaches looked at the numbers FES was putting up and said to themselves, "screw it, just lock down Vanek!"

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06-16-2012, 04:30 PM
  #994
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After considering the makeup of our team, I really think a two way center who can play a shutdown role and play in all situations needs to be priority #1.

Whether it be overpaying for Staal or giving Stoll a retirement contract, it needs to happen.

Assuming Roy is gone via trade at some point.

Consider the following roles:

Ennis is an pure offensive role. A skate skate skate skate line with Foligno/Stafford.

The new shutdown line staring Leino-Shutdown Center-Pomniville OR a big rugged right winger in the Grier mold.

Vanek-Hodgson-Tropp/Big winger brought in Via trade (Clowe or Clutterbuck fit this mold). Vanek to start the season should still attract most of the other teams top checkers. This line should get near the same minutes of the Ennis line. Two good (not great) offensive lines should really make some hard matchups for other teams. On any given night, the Vanek-Hodgson line or the Foligno-Ennis-Stafford line should get some lower QOC to sneak in some offensive lopsided ness.

I'm on the Staal or bust train right now. If Staal ends up not working out, I'm ok with overpaying Stoll. I really am. But Jordan Staal fits this team. He's won a cup, he does the thankless work, and he has that quiet leadership that really goes un-noticed in Pittsburgh. And his tireless hard work is something that fits Lindy Ruff's system perfectly.

My ideal summer would be:

#1. Aquire Staal.
#2. Move Roy/Picks/whatever to fill whatever hole you made aquiring Staal (unless you had to include Ennis in the deal, than Roy stays to fill the role Ennis would have had)
#3. Add some toughness/grit via UFA. If you had a move a d-man to get Staal, Jackman might be someone you can take a look at.

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06-16-2012, 04:30 PM
  #995
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danny briere vs. everyone he has been matched against in the playoffs since 2006.
Wrong. He is offensive too. Please tell me you believe Briere is on the ice with 30 seconds left and up by one????? Briere has never been confused with a defensive center.

No disrespect to Briere but he's on the ice to score goals, and there is nothing wrong with that but he's not matched up with Malkin in the defensive zone.

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06-16-2012, 04:44 PM
  #996
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Originally Posted by Fatal System Ehrhoff View Post
As he is right now? He's still got a ways to go. But given the transition back to what his natural position is and the flashes of outright incredible offensive talent that I don't think anyone will debate, I'd argue that with proper coaching and training he has the potential to develop his offensive game to that of a #1 (in the same way that Thornton/Spezza are pretty much offensive specialists with acceptable D). That is not to say that he'll be as good as Spezza, much less Thornton, but his skills at 22 are remarkable.
that's a little hyperbolic for my tastes... "remarkable"? really? I mean what couturier did against malkin was remarkable... what RNH did at 18 was pretty darn impressive. but seriously... Ennis is in his 3rd pro season, and had an impressive 6 week stretch for sure... but remarkable?

please, someone show me the defensive pairing on the ice every time he put up a point from March 10th to the end of the season..


Quote:
Right now? I think you underestimate him in the offensive zone, but overall I'd agree with you. A year from now, though? Two or three? I don't think his skills and development have plateaued.

His size is and will always be a disadvantage. But Savard was 5'10'' 180lbs for a while and was able to have a couple excellent years while playing acceptable at worst D. Ennis has had a similar start to his NHL career and I'd be thrilled to see him match it.
There are very few players who develop into bonafide top liners at his size... it's a simple fact that will not change. maybe he's the next st louis, who knows.

Savard is another very good example... how many contenders was he a part of?

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06-16-2012, 04:57 PM
  #997
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
that's a little hyperbolic for my tastes... "remarkable"? really? I mean what couturier did against malkin was remarkable... what RNH did at 18 was pretty darn impressive. but seriously... Ennis is in his 3rd pro season, and had an impressive 6 week stretch for sure... but remarkable?

please, someone show me the defensive pairing on the ice every time he put up a point from March 10th to the end of the season..
It's unusual for a player to do what he did at his age. I'd say he's right now the 4th best forward in his draft class, and 11th best forward out of 08-11 at this point. I'd call that a remarkable player, but I understand if you and I have different metrics for a word like that .


Quote:
There are very few players who develop into bonafide top liners at his size... it's a simple fact that will not change. maybe he's the next st louis, who knows.

Savard is another very good example... how many contenders was he a part of?
The only time Savard was on a half-competent team he had his brains knocked out of his skull.

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06-16-2012, 05:14 PM
  #998
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Originally Posted by Fatal System Ehrhoff View Post
It's unusual for a player to do what he did at his age. I'd say he's right now the 4th best forward in his draft class, and 11th best forward out of 08-11 at this point. I'd call that a remarkable player, but I understand if you and I have different metrics for a word like that .
yes, i would say that is a pretty silly definition of remarkable

ps who did you put him ahead of Stepan or Henrique? since obviously, Stammer and Eberle are 1 and 2.

Quote:
The only time Savard was on a half-competent team he had his brains knocked out of his skull.
or maybe your team won't be competent with a mini #1 center?

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06-16-2012, 05:47 PM
  #999
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yes, i would say that is a pretty silly definition of remarkable

ps who did you put him ahead of Stepan or Henrique? since obviously, Stammer and Eberle are 1 and 2.



or maybe your team won't be competent with a mini #1 center?
5'11", 190 Andy McDonald was the #1 center on a cup winning team. He's comparable in size to Savard (although both are bigger than Ennis).

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06-16-2012, 06:04 PM
  #1000
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5'11", 190 Andy McDonald was the #1 center on a cup winning team. He's comparable in size to Savard (although both are bigger than Ennis).
so he's 2 inches taller and 30 lbs heavier... and he played on one of the biggest teams around. not to mention Getzlaf was in beast mode in that post season, and was drawing significant respect and attention even at such a young age.

seriously, how many players on that cup team were under 6 foot AND under 200 lbs?

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