HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Philadelphia Flyers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Offseason Thread 2012 II: Offseason Harder

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
06-16-2012, 02:20 PM
  #326
Spongolium*
Potato Magician
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Bridgend,UK
Country: Wales
Posts: 8,653
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Bure, Gretzky, Selanne, Jagr, Lemiuex, Lindross, and I'm guessing his dad?
Wow.

Spongolium* is offline  
Old
06-16-2012, 02:27 PM
  #327
SeanCWombBroom
DownieFaceSoftener
 
SeanCWombBroom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,787
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
On top of that, JVR is a powerforward which is something that in general takes longer to develop because his game style is based on a foundation where he is bigger and stronger than his opponents.
You're right about the development of power forwards. JVR seems to play very small (at least right now). He could use some snarl.

SeanCWombBroom is offline  
Old
06-16-2012, 02:31 PM
  #328
Jack de la Hoya
Registered User
 
Jack de la Hoya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Texas
Country: United States
Posts: 13,295
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
His point is that the factor of when a player breaks into the NHL is fairly overrated on HFBoards. (Then again, what isn't?)

The truth is that unless forwards are a rare breed, their development pattern in the NHL is normally as follows regardless of age as long as they are not like 24 or up when they first make the NHL. (There will obviously be exceptions, but I could definitely go and find many like cases for this. Remember I am discussing your average 1st round forward selection.)

Year 1: limited production, limited role
Year 3: much better production, second line role
Year 5: production as a true NHL vet, major role within organization

Age does not necessarily determine anything other than when the player is ready for the NHL. Normally they all go through the same process of adjusting to the size and speed of the game.

On top of that, JVR is a powerforward which is something that in general takes longer to develop because his game style is based on a foundation where he is bigger and stronger than his opponents.
Yeah, I understand, but if JVR is a powerforward, what would you call Kane? Both could benefit from a bit more "meanness" in their game, but otherwise they seem fairly similar. Kane could still afford to put on a bit of weight--but at 6'2 / 200 (and not yet 21), I don't think that's a stretch.

In other words, if two players have similar pedigrees, similar skill-sets, and similar playing styles, is it not reasonable to infer that the player who produced better at a younger age is a more valuable commodity?

For example, if your chart above is right, we should expect JVR to hit his baseline production next season (or perhaps the one that followed)--so around age 24-26. By the same logic, Kane will hit his baseline production next year or the year tat followed... at age 21-23.

If you assume the players carry that production through a similar age--e.g., their late 20s / early 30s (an unknown variable), then isn't it still likely that you will get "peak" production from the younger player for more years?

Basically, I'm looking for some explanation as to how we can reasonable expect JVR make significant advances in his development, but presume Kane will stagnate--I feel like I'm not following something here...

Jack de la Hoya is offline  
Old
06-16-2012, 02:34 PM
  #329
CS
Bryzgalov's Blueline
 
CS's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Lumberton, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 13,998
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DownieFaceSoftener View Post
You're right about the development of power forwards. JVR seems to play very small (at least right now). He could use some snarl.
JVR doesn't play small, he plays finesse, and snarl is not what he needs.

He's been bulking up, but he needs to play more like a bull in a china shop. And I'm not talking like he needs to take runs and bodycheck everyone that moves. What he needs to do is set a goal in his mind (the puck, or a way out if youre a bull) and ignore every other thing that gets in his way (opponents, or china if youre a bull). When JVR realizes that his incredible speed can couple with his size to muscle opponents and then skate right by them, he'll be one of if not the best powerforward in the NHL. He has all of the tools.

JVR is part of a group that's quickly becoming extinct, but he has the rare ability to keep up with a speed game.

Right now, he is like where Coburn was 2 years ago. Coburn could do no right. I said wait patiently, and now he is easily our second best defenseman behind Timonen.

Give JVR a chance. You won't regret it.

CS is offline  
Old
06-16-2012, 02:43 PM
  #330
CS
Bryzgalov's Blueline
 
CS's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Lumberton, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 13,998
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
Yeah, I understand, but if JVR is a powerforward, what would you call Kane? Both could benefit from a bit more "meanness" in their game, but otherwise they seem fairly similar. Kane could still afford to put on a bit of weight--but at 6'2 / 200 (and not yet 21), I don't think that's a stretch.

In other words, if two players have similar pedigrees, similar skill-sets, and similar playing styles, is it not reasonable to infer that the player who produced better at a younger age is a more valuable commodity?

For example, if your chart above is right, we should expect JVR to hit his baseline production next season (or perhaps the one that followed)--so around age 24-26. By the same logic, Kane will hit his baseline production next year or the year tat followed... at age 21-23.

If you assume the players carry that production through a similar age--e.g., their late 20s / early 30s (an unknown variable), then isn't it still likely that you will get "peak" production from the younger player for more years?

Basically, I'm looking for some explanation as to how we can reasonable expect JVR make significant advances in his development, but presume Kane will stagnate--I feel like I'm not following something here...
Their game is predicated on different things. That's the intrinsic problem with your theory.

Kane's game has always been straight finesse. He doesn't have the muscle or size to go through people. Throwing around height and weight does not come close to telling the entire story.

JVR's game is more dependent on cutting to the net/slot with speed, muscling out a defenseman, and making a hockey play whether it be a shot on net or a pass to set up a teammate.

Kane's game is more dependent on the outside and speed. JVR uses a combination, but what we'd like is for him to play with a little more bull and a little less Patrick Kane.

Part of the blame also falls on Laviolette's system which is predicated on speed to the outside. Kane would destroy all comers in our system. Though JVR has the wheels to easily play Laviolette's system, it doesn't necessarily use him to his full potential. That said, it's up to JVR to figure out how to adjust himself to use all of his tools within the system. It's a very possible endeavor, and I'd honestly be shocked if he doesn't start doing well right out of the gate next season.


Last edited by CS: 06-16-2012 at 02:48 PM.
CS is offline  
Old
06-16-2012, 02:44 PM
  #331
DrinkFightFlyers
Grave Before Shave
 
DrinkFightFlyers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 12,537
vCash: 155
Send a message via AIM to DrinkFightFlyers
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
Wow.
Haha, come on its decade old grainy photo. Cut me some slack.

DrinkFightFlyers is offline  
Old
06-16-2012, 03:57 PM
  #332
sobrien
RAFFLCOPTER
 
sobrien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: South Jersey/Memphis
Country: United States
Posts: 6,609
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Their game is predicated on different things. That's the intrinsic problem with your theory.

Kane's game has always been straight finesse. He doesn't have the muscle or size to go through people. Throwing around height and weight does not come close to telling the entire story.

JVR's game is more dependent on cutting to the net/slot with speed, muscling out a defenseman, and making a hockey play whether it be a shot on net or a pass to set up a teammate.

Kane's game is more dependent on the outside and speed. JVR uses a combination, but what we'd like is for him to play with a little more bull and a little less Patrick Kane.

Part of the blame also falls on Laviolette's system which is predicated on speed to the outside. Kane would destroy all comers in our system. Though JVR has the wheels to easily play Laviolette's system, it doesn't necessarily use him to his full potential. That said, it's up to JVR to figure out how to adjust himself to use all of his tools within the system. It's a very possible endeavor, and I'd honestly be shocked if he doesn't start doing well right out of the gate next season.
.....I thought we were talking about Evander Kane? I was reading this whole thing scratching my head wondering why you think Evander Kane plays a finesse game dude almost gets 200 hits a year. Comparing Evander and JvR.

sobrien is offline  
Old
06-16-2012, 03:59 PM
  #333
Jack de la Hoya
Registered User
 
Jack de la Hoya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Texas
Country: United States
Posts: 13,295
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
.....I thought we were talking about Evander Kane? I was reading this whole thing scratching my head wondering why you think Evander Kane plays a finesse game dude almost gets 200 hits a year. Comparing Evander and JvR.
...I was going to mention it, but I figured it best to let things lie for civility's sake.

If anything, Kane is more physical than JVR, not less.

Jack de la Hoya is offline  
Old
06-16-2012, 04:01 PM
  #334
sobrien
RAFFLCOPTER
 
sobrien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: South Jersey/Memphis
Country: United States
Posts: 6,609
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
...I was going to mention it, but I figured it best to let things lie for civility's sake.

If anything, Kane is more physical than JVR, not less.
Evander, yes, by far. Though I still see JvR with more of a pure offensive skillset in the future. Both would be nice to have if we could swing that

sobrien is offline  
Old
06-16-2012, 04:02 PM
  #335
Giroux 4 MVP
Girøux #28
 
Giroux 4 MVP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 308
vCash: 500
JVR plays physical in one of every 30 games or so I would say


Last edited by Giroux 4 MVP: 06-16-2012 at 04:07 PM.
Giroux 4 MVP is offline  
Old
06-16-2012, 04:04 PM
  #336
BernieParent
Registered User
 
BernieParent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Montreal, QC
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,118
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Haha, come on its decade old grainy photo. Cut me some slack.
Howe embarrassing.

The first thing that jumped out at me from that pic is, "Wow, is Mario Lemieux ever tall!"

I hope that, should no trade go through, a healthy van Riemsdyk takes the mountain of speculation and uses it as a challenge to show the Flyers why he deserves to be part of this team's top 6.

BernieParent is offline  
Old
06-16-2012, 04:06 PM
  #337
Jack de la Hoya
Registered User
 
Jack de la Hoya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Texas
Country: United States
Posts: 13,295
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
Evander, yes, by far. Though I still see JvR with more of a pure offensive skillset in the future. Both would be nice to have if we could swing that
We probably could--but it would cost Schenn + or Couturier +.

Just to play it out...assuming it is Couturier + a pick:

Hartnell-Giroux-Jagr / Voracek
JVR-Briere-Read / Voracek
Kane-Schenn-Simmonds
Wellwood-Talbot-Rinaldo / Read

That is by far the single sexiest 3rd line that I have ever seen...but I would still hate to lose Couturier.

Jack de la Hoya is offline  
Old
06-16-2012, 04:09 PM
  #338
Giroux 4 MVP
Girøux #28
 
Giroux 4 MVP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 308
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
We probably could--but it would cost Schenn + or Couturier +.

Just to play it out...assuming it is Couturier + a pick:

Hartnell-Giroux-Jagr / Voracek
JVR-Briere-Read / Voracek
Kane-Schenn-Simmonds
Wellwood-Talbot-Rinaldo / Read

That is by far the single sexiest 3rd line that I have ever seen...but I would still hate to lose Couturier.
Why the hell would he play third line that's stupid

Giroux 4 MVP is offline  
Old
06-16-2012, 04:09 PM
  #339
CS
Bryzgalov's Blueline
 
CS's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Lumberton, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 13,998
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
.....I thought we were talking about Evander Kane? I was reading this whole thing scratching my head wondering why you think Evander Kane plays a finesse game dude almost gets 200 hits a year. Comparing Evander and JvR.
I thought we were talking about Patrick Kane in the post I quoted.

No wonder I was like, "wtf is this guy talking about?"

Yes, Evander Kane plays much more of the style that we would like to see out of JVR. Which is why I'd be okay moving JVR for EVANDER KANE.

(I don't know why I thought he had switched to Patrick Kane, but for some reason that's where my mind went.)

CS is offline  
Old
06-16-2012, 04:12 PM
  #340
Jack de la Hoya
Registered User
 
Jack de la Hoya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Texas
Country: United States
Posts: 13,295
vCash: 500
Delete

Jack de la Hoya is offline  
Old
06-16-2012, 04:14 PM
  #341
Jack de la Hoya
Registered User
 
Jack de la Hoya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Texas
Country: United States
Posts: 13,295
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
I thought we were talking about Patrick Kane in the post I quoted.

No wonder I was like, "wtf is this guy talking about?"

Yes, Evander Kane plays much more of the style that we would like to see out of JVR.
...and my faith in your analytical / evaluative powers is restored.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giroux 4 MVP View Post
Why the hell would he play third line that's stupid
Re-arrange however you would like. One of Kane, Hartnell, and JVR would be on the 3rd line in this scenario--as would one of Briere and Schenn, and one of Read / Voracek and Simmonds.

Kane-Schenn-Simmonds just seemed like a nice combination. Obviously it wouldn't be a traditional "checking" third line...but we haven't had one of those for quite some time anyway.

Jack de la Hoya is offline  
Old
06-16-2012, 04:15 PM
  #342
CS
Bryzgalov's Blueline
 
CS's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Lumberton, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 13,998
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
Re-arrange however you would like. One of Kane, Hartnell, and JVR would be on the 3rd line in this scenario--as would one of Briere and Schenn, and one of Read / Voracek and Simmonds.

Kane-Schenn-Simmonds just seemed like a nice combination. Obviously it wouldn't be a traditional "checking" third line...but we haven't had one of those for quite some time anyway.
Kane - Schenn - Simmonds would be absolutely deadly. I don't care where the line is playing.

As you noted, we don't have traditional 1-2-3-4 lines in Philadelphia. We haven't for a while.

CS is offline  
Old
06-16-2012, 04:28 PM
  #343
SeanCWombBroom
DownieFaceSoftener
 
SeanCWombBroom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,787
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
JVR doesn't play small, he plays finesse, and snarl is not what he needs.
I'm confused by a "finesse" "bull in a china shop".

It was, hurt or not, shameful as **** to watch him get worked on the boards this year and be the weakest attacker in a scrum with a body his size.

Not every play is going to a play wherein he can out skate and out muscle guys to pucks. He'll need to pound.

He can and does shy away from contact. Finesse does diddly on a forecheck with guys clutching and grabbing.

SeanCWombBroom is offline  
Old
06-16-2012, 04:30 PM
  #344
DrinkFightFlyers
Grave Before Shave
 
DrinkFightFlyers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 12,537
vCash: 155
Send a message via AIM to DrinkFightFlyers
Quote:
Originally Posted by BernieParent View Post
Howe embarrassing.

DrinkFightFlyers is offline  
Old
06-16-2012, 04:37 PM
  #345
CS
Bryzgalov's Blueline
 
CS's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Lumberton, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 13,998
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DownieFaceSoftener View Post
I'm confused by a "finesse" "bull in a china shop".
He plays soft most of the time. He wants to use his speed/skating and work to the outside.

He needs to make the push inside more. That doesn't mean he needs to hit people, but he needs to understand he has the size and power to muscle people out of his way. He shows flashes of that, but if he hits his prime as he should, it will be a constant thing with him. Not only will he be a true powerforward, he will be one with speed and hands. That's a scary thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DownieFaceSoftener View Post
It was, hurt or not, shameful as **** to watch him get worked on the boards this year and be the weakest attacker in a scrum with a body his size.

Not every play is going to a play wherein he can out skate and out muscle guys to pucks. He'll need to pound.

He can and does shy away from contact. Finesse does diddly on a forecheck with guys clutching and grabbing.
Exactly. He needs to push throw contact, not go around it as he generally does. As Coburn does, he tends to rely too much on his skating when he should use both skating and size together.

CS is offline  
Old
06-16-2012, 04:43 PM
  #346
mypunkrock
Registered User
 
mypunkrock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Downtown Phoenix, AZ
Country: United States
Posts: 2,421
vCash: 500
If we could sign Jason Garrison, I'd be happy.

Jvr - Roo - Voracek
Hartnell - Schenn - Simmonds
Read - Couturier - Briere
Wellwood - Talbot - Someone not named Rinaldo or Sestito or Shelley


Kimmo - Coburn
Carle - Mez
Grossman - Garrison
Lilja - Bourdon
Manning

Bryz
Bob

Still have cap space. Fourth line spot preferable goes to a Lappy or Talbot esque player. We'd still have at least 3 mil in cap space, plus Pronger LTIR funds, and room to negotiate in future years with our RFA's.

Thoughts?

mypunkrock is offline  
Old
06-16-2012, 04:45 PM
  #347
Giroux 4 MVP
Girøux #28
 
Giroux 4 MVP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 308
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mypunkrock View Post
If we could sign Jason Garrison, I'd be happy.

Jvr - Roo - Voracek
Hartnell - Schenn - Simmonds
Read - Couturier - Briere
Wellwood - Talbot - Someone not named Rinaldo or Sestito or Shelley


Kimmo - Coburn
Carle - Mez
Grossman - Garrison
Lilja - Bourdon
Manning

Bryz
Bob

Still have cap space. Fourth line spot preferable goes to a Lappy or Talbot esque player. We'd still have at least 3 mil in cap space, plus Pronger LTIR funds, and room to negotiate in future years with our RFA's.

Thoughts?
Nothing wrong with sestito

Giroux 4 MVP is offline  
Old
06-16-2012, 05:38 PM
  #348
VanSciver
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,302
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post

Right now, he is like where Coburn was 2 years ago. Coburn could do no right. I said wait patiently, and now he is easily our second best defenseman behind Timonen.

.
Easily the 2nd best defenseman behind Timonen? That's a matter of opinion. Carle is a better all around defenseman then Coburn is.

VanSciver is offline  
Old
06-16-2012, 05:59 PM
  #349
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
Beefitor
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Centreville
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 37,818
vCash: 156
No. I take coburn over Carle 52 days a week

Beef Invictus is offline  
Old
06-16-2012, 05:59 PM
  #350
Giroux 4 MVP
Girøux #28
 
Giroux 4 MVP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 308
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
Easily the 2nd best defenseman behind Timonen? That's a matter of opinion. Carle is a better all around defenseman then Coburn is.
1000% false

Giroux 4 MVP is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:15 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.