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06-16-2012, 06:04 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by LoveDaSwords View Post
5'11", 190 Andy McDonald was the #1 center on a cup winning team. He's comparable in size to Savard (although both are bigger than Ennis).
so he's 2 inches taller and 30 lbs heavier... and he played on one of the biggest teams around. not to mention Getzlaf was in beast mode in that post season, and was drawing significant respect and attention even at such a young age.

seriously, how many players on that cup team were under 6 foot AND under 200 lbs?

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06-16-2012, 06:22 PM
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I'm in the boat that thinks Ennis could have mild success as a "top-line" center, but not enough to be the guy on a cup-contending team.

I think he'd be a fantastic compliment to a deep-center team - one that Buffalo could have should they trade for Staal.

I think Galchenyuk has a much higher ceiling, though, and I believe he'd see success feasting on lesser checkers as well. In the short term, Ennis is probably...safer. But long-term, Galchenyuk and Staal would be perfect compliments to one another. Staal will always have better defensive chops but both are 200-foot players with unique skillsets.

That could be the Sedin/Kesler combination we've been looking for.

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06-16-2012, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by TehDoak View Post
After considering the makeup of our team, I really think a two way center who can play a shutdown role and play in all situations needs to be priority #1.

Whether it be overpaying for Staal or giving Stoll a retirement contract, it needs to happen.

Assuming Roy is gone via trade at some point.

Consider the following roles:

Ennis is an pure offensive role. A skate skate skate skate line with Foligno/Stafford.

The new shutdown line staring Leino-Shutdown Center-Pomniville OR a big rugged right winger in the Grier mold.

Vanek-Hodgson-Tropp/Big winger brought in Via trade (Clowe or Clutterbuck fit this mold). Vanek to start the season should still attract most of the other teams top checkers. This line should get near the same minutes of the Ennis line. Two good (not great) offensive lines should really make some hard matchups for other teams. On any given night, the Vanek-Hodgson line or the Foligno-Ennis-Stafford line should get some lower QOC to sneak in some offensive lopsided ness.

I'm on the Staal or bust train right now. If Staal ends up not working out, I'm ok with overpaying Stoll. I really am. But Jordan Staal fits this team. He's won a cup, he does the thankless work, and he has that quiet leadership that really goes un-noticed in Pittsburgh. And his tireless hard work is something that fits Lindy Ruff's system perfectly.

My ideal summer would be:

#1. Aquire Staal.
#2. Move Roy/Picks/whatever to fill whatever hole you made aquiring Staal (unless you had to include Ennis in the deal, than Roy stays to fill the role Ennis would have had)
#3. Add some toughness/grit via UFA. If you had a move a d-man to get Staal, Jackman might be someone you can take a look at.

I stopped reading after seeing "Stoll" and "retirement contract" in the same sentence.

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06-16-2012, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by tsujimoto74 View Post
I agree. It was a set-up that worked for Buffalo before, and we're one center away from being able to run that kind of model again. The 3C system doesn't just work for Pittsburgh because they have 2 of the best in the world -- it works because nobody has enough defensive lines to match up against that many lines with skill.
I'm sold on a Staal - Hodgson - Ennis 3 line model. It makes a lot of sense.

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06-16-2012, 06:30 PM
  #55
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++ Btw to those that say they would like a Hodgson/Vanek line to face the other teams top defenders. I hope you realize thats up to the other team.
I like to think of it as a pick-your-poison dilemma. It doesn't really matter who the opposition puts their top defenders against. One of the three lines is going to get easy minutes.

If I'm GM, the lines look like this come October:

Leino - Staal - Kennedy
Vanek- Hodgson - Clutterbuck
Foligno -Ennis -Stafford
Gerbe - McClement - Kaleta/Tropp

Which of the top nine gets the easy minutes?

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06-16-2012, 06:53 PM
  #56
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For the sake of the Ennis argument - all the even strength points he amassed since 3/10 @ Ottawa, when the FES line was assembled.

4/3 vs. Toronto. Leopold (Ennis, Foligno): Komisarek, Phaneuf
3/31 @ Toronto. Ennis (Stafford, Leopold): Schenn, Gardiner
3/31 @ Toronto. Stafford (Foligno, Ennis): Schenn, Gardiner
3/30 vs. Pittsburgh. Ennis (Sulzer, Weber): Michalek, Orpik
3/27 @ Washington. Stafford (Myers, Ennis): Schultz, Carlson
3/27 @ Washington. Stafford (Ennis, Regehr): Hamrlik, Green
3/23 @ New York Rangers. Stafford (Ennis, Foligno): Bickel, Erixon
3/23 @ New York Rangers. Ennis (Stafford, Foligno): Del Zotto, Staal
3/23 @ New York Rangers. Stafford (Ennis): Del Zotto, Staal
3/19 @ Tampa Bay. Foligno (Ennis, Stafford): Clark, Lee
3/17 @ Florida. Ennis (Stafford, Foligno): Campbell, Garrison
3/14 vs. Colorado. Foligno (Ennis, Stafford): O'Brien, Wilson
3/14 vs. Colorado. Foligno (Stafford, Ennis): Johnson, Hunwick
3/14 vs. Colorado. Sulzer (Boyes, Ennis): O'Brien, Hunwick
3/12 vs. Montreal. Ennis (Stafford, Foligno): Emelin, Markov
3/12 vs. Montreal. Ennis (Stafford, Sulzer): Emelin, Markov
3/10 @ Ottawa. Ennis (Leopold, Leino): Kuba, Karlsson

I don't see a consistent pattern but I do think it leans in favor of the theory that Ennis was successful because he was playing sheltered minutes (which doesn't mean he can't develop into a player who has success against better checkers). His 3-point game against Colorado and 2-point game against Montreal are noted.

All stats pulled from NHL.com game summaries.

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06-16-2012, 07:08 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
yes, i would say that is a pretty silly definition of remarkable

ps who did you put him ahead of Stepan or Henrique? since obviously, Stammer and Eberle are 1 and 2.
Stepan.

And in regard to Savard, the team was incredibly successful once it was a good team. It's the same reason Steven Stamkos couldn't carry his team into the playoffs this year.

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06-16-2012, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Loods View Post
For the sake of the Ennis argument - all the even strength points he amassed since 3/10 @ Ottawa, when the FES line was assembled.

4/3 vs. Toronto. Leopold (Ennis, Foligno): Komisarek, Phaneuf
3/31 @ Toronto. Ennis (Stafford, Leopold): Schenn, Gardiner
3/31 @ Toronto. Stafford (Foligno, Ennis): Schenn, Gardiner
3/30 vs. Pittsburgh. Ennis (Sulzer, Weber): Michalek, Orpik
3/27 @ Washington. Stafford (Myers, Ennis): Schultz, Carlson
3/27 @ Washington. Stafford (Ennis, Regehr): Hamrlik, Green
3/23 @ New York Rangers. Stafford (Ennis, Foligno): Bickel, Erixon
3/23 @ New York Rangers. Ennis (Stafford, Foligno): Del Zotto, Staal
3/23 @ New York Rangers. Stafford (Ennis): Del Zotto, Staal
3/19 @ Tampa Bay. Foligno (Ennis, Stafford): Clark, Lee
3/17 @ Florida. Ennis (Stafford, Foligno): Campbell, Garrison
3/14 vs. Colorado. Foligno (Ennis, Stafford): O'Brien, Wilson
3/14 vs. Colorado. Foligno (Stafford, Ennis): Johnson, Hunwick
3/14 vs. Colorado. Sulzer (Boyes, Ennis): O'Brien, Hunwick
3/12 vs. Montreal. Ennis (Stafford, Foligno): Emelin, Markov
3/12 vs. Montreal. Ennis (Stafford, Sulzer): Emelin, Markov
3/10 @ Ottawa. Ennis (Leopold, Leino): Kuba, Karlsson

I don't see a consistent pattern but I do think it leans in favor of the theory that Ennis was successful because he was playing sheltered minutes (which doesn't mean he can't develop into a player who has success against better checkers). His 3-point game against Colorado and 2-point game against Montreal are noted.
I'm not sure why you come to that conclusion? I count 9 out of 17 of those points where I'd consider the defenders the top pairing for the opponent. If that's the case, it's indicative that opponents rolled D pairs against the three scoring lines, not that FES feasted on matchup problems.

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06-16-2012, 07:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loods View Post
I'm in the boat that thinks Ennis could have mild success as a "top-line" center, but not enough to be the guy on a cup-contending team.

I think he'd be a fantastic compliment to a deep-center team - one that Buffalo could have should they trade for Staal.

I think Galchenyuk has a much higher ceiling, though, and I believe he'd see success feasting on lesser checkers as well. In the short term, Ennis is probably...safer. But long-term, Galchenyuk and Staal would be perfect compliments to one another. Staal will always have better defensive chops but both are 200-foot players with unique skillsets.

That could be the Sedin/Kesler combination we've been looking for.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
I stopped reading after seeing "Stoll" and "retirement contract" in the same sentence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Der Jaeger View Post
I'm sold on a Staal - Hodgson - Ennis 3 line model. It makes a lot of sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Der Jaeger View Post
I like to think of it as a pick-your-poison dilemma. It doesn't really matter who the opposition puts their top defenders against. One of the three lines is going to get easy minutes.

If I'm GM, the lines look like this come October:

Leino - Staal - Kennedy
Vanek- Hodgson - Clutterbuck
Foligno -Ennis -Stafford
Gerbe - McClement - Kaleta/Tropp

Which of the top nine gets the easy minutes?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loods View Post
For the sake of the Ennis argument - all the even strength points he amassed since 3/10 @ Ottawa, when the FES line was assembled.

4/3 vs. Toronto. Leopold (Ennis, Foligno): Komisarek, Phaneuf
3/31 @ Toronto. Ennis (Stafford, Leopold): Schenn, Gardiner
3/31 @ Toronto. Stafford (Foligno, Ennis): Schenn, Gardiner
3/30 vs. Pittsburgh. Ennis (Sulzer, Weber): Michalek, Orpik
3/27 @ Washington. Stafford (Myers, Ennis): Schultz, Carlson
3/27 @ Washington. Stafford (Ennis, Regehr): Hamrlik, Green
3/23 @ New York Rangers. Stafford (Ennis, Foligno): Bickel, Erixon
3/23 @ New York Rangers. Ennis (Stafford, Foligno): Del Zotto, Staal
3/23 @ New York Rangers. Stafford (Ennis): Del Zotto, Staal
3/19 @ Tampa Bay. Foligno (Ennis, Stafford): Clark, Lee
3/17 @ Florida. Ennis (Stafford, Foligno): Campbell, Garrison
3/14 vs. Colorado. Foligno (Ennis, Stafford): O'Brien, Wilson
3/14 vs. Colorado. Foligno (Stafford, Ennis): Johnson, Hunwick
3/14 vs. Colorado. Sulzer (Boyes, Ennis): O'Brien, Hunwick
3/12 vs. Montreal. Ennis (Stafford, Foligno): Emelin, Markov
3/12 vs. Montreal. Ennis (Stafford, Sulzer): Emelin, Markov
3/10 @ Ottawa. Ennis (Leopold, Leino): Kuba, Karlsson

I don't see a consistent pattern but I do think it leans in favor of the theory that Ennis was successful because he was playing sheltered minutes (which doesn't mean he can't develop into a player who has success against better checkers). His 3-point game against Colorado and 2-point game against Montreal are noted.

All stats pulled from NHL.com game summaries.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatal System Ehrhoff View Post
Stepan.

And in regard to Savard, the team was incredibly successful once it was a good team. It's the same reason Steven Stamkos couldn't carry his team into the playoffs this year.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatal System Ehrhoff View Post
I'm not sure why you come to that conclusion? I count 9 out of 17 of those points where I'd consider the defenders the top pairing for the opponent. If that's the case, it's indicative that opponents rolled D pairs against the three scoring lines, not that FES feasted on matchup problems.

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06-16-2012, 07:40 PM
  #60
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it's always the same thing around here. If you don't give some arbitrary praise and title, and instead do actual analsyis, then you must be a hater

Ennis was AWESOME in the last 6 weeks. The Sabres learned that he could BOTH play center AND Dominate in a specific role. But He was NOT a #1 center, and did NOT demonstrate any reason to believe he could be one

Same with Myers. I think he's going to be a franchise all around #1, Norris Caliber defender... but his role was reduced last season, and Sekera had a significantly better year statistically... but NOPE... not according to some posters who have an epic level of homerism accompanying their analysis.
Personally, I love Ennis in the mis-match role, as the guy who can feast on weaker competition or getting offensive zone starts. He's going to generate offense off that when they get that matchup. And if someone adjusts to stop him... that leaves either Pominville or Vanek's lines with lesser competition and we have seen Vanek in particular slice up scrub d-men. What Ruff did with Ennis is actually what Vignault did with Hodgson during what Gillis called "building his value" -- CoHo picked up O-zone starts against the non-Sedin checking units and he feasted on them. Essentially, Buffalo can use one or the other in that role, depending on who the other team is trying to stop.

And that comes back to who are going to take the d-zone starts and I think you and I are in agreement about Staal as THE guy who would make that set-up tick. Right now, Roy doesn't have the checking chops to make it happen. Hodgson might be the guy, based on positioning, smarts and such, but he's not there yet.

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06-16-2012, 07:47 PM
  #61
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Old Thread closed, copied the last two pages of it to keep the conversation about role and value as pertains to trading going.

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06-16-2012, 08:04 PM
  #62
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Shifting gears for a moment, Evander Kane.... hinted at on the Trade Board that he might not want to re-up with the 'Peg. He's got that Iginla sort of power game in the making and he's going to command a considerable return.... but he would make the Sabres top 6 much, much harder to face if he's on the wing or if they try playing him in the middle (not his best position currently).

If Regier's kicking the tires out there, Kane's a 20-year old power player, the sort to plug into the younger core and grow toward their big shiny aspirations together.

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06-16-2012, 08:13 PM
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Simply put, Kane is my #1 dream acquisition for this offseason, and based upon what WPG's looking for I think a package centered around Stafford++ would really appeal to them. Not only are the Jets looking for young talent, but also cheap contracts and organization control.

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06-16-2012, 08:13 PM
  #64
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Time to expose some stainless steel testicles.

Trade up to #2.

Trade up to #3.

Draft Yakupov and Galchenyuk. Murray is most likely going #1.

I know this is a total pipe dream. But we have the assets to pull it off. We don't have the balls, unfortunately.

To Columbus: Vanek, Roy, #21 (Taking some money back is probably necessary. I'd also include Catenacci if necessary)

To Montreal: Stafford, Pysyk, #12

To Buffalo: #2 and #3
I was thinking about this idea too. Except: To Columbus-Vanek, Psysk, Brennan, #12, Gerbe

To Montreal-Roy, #12, Both 2nds, Leopold

Then sign Parise

Our team in 3 years-
Foligno-Galchenyuk-Armia
Parise-Ennis-Stafford
Pominville-Hodgson-Leino
Tropp-McCormick/xxx-Kaleta

Myers-Murray
Errhoff-McNabe
Sekera-Gauthier Ludec

Fun to dream

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06-16-2012, 08:50 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Fatal System Ehrhoff View Post
I'm not sure why you come to that conclusion? I count 9 out of 17 of those points where I'd consider the defenders the top pairing for the opponent. If that's the case, it's indicative that opponents rolled D pairs against the three scoring lines, not that FES feasted on matchup problems.
which 9?
I counted 5

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06-16-2012, 08:54 PM
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Personally, I love Ennis in the mis-match role, as the guy who can feast on weaker competition or getting offensive zone starts. He's going to generate offense off that when they get that matchup. And if someone adjusts to stop him... that leaves either Pominville or Vanek's lines with lesser competition and we have seen Vanek in particular slice up scrub d-men. What Ruff did with Ennis is actually what Vignault did with Hodgson during what Gillis called "building his value" -- CoHo picked up O-zone starts against the non-Sedin checking units and he feasted on them. Essentially, Buffalo can use one or the other in that role, depending on who the other team is trying to stop.

And that comes back to who are going to take the d-zone starts and I think you and I are in agreement about Staal as THE guy who would make that set-up tick. Right now, Roy doesn't have the checking chops to make it happen. Hodgson might be the guy, based on positioning, smarts and such, but he's not there yet.
We are on the same page

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06-16-2012, 09:00 PM
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which 9?
I counted 5
Schenn
Schenn
Orpik
Green/Carlson, one of them counts
Staal
Staal
Campbell
Johnson
Karlsson

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06-16-2012, 09:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatal System Ehrhoff View Post
Schenn
Schenn
Orpik
Green/Carlson, one of them counts
Staal
Staal
Campbell
Johnson
Karlsson
Schenn, Green, Campbell and Karlsson are all debateable.

None are guys you put on the ice to shut opponents down.

Michalek/Orpik, Schultz/Carlson, MDZ/Staal (arguable...I assume McDonagh/Girardi) and Johnson/Hunwick (though I'm iffy here - don't know much about COL) are the only ones I'd consider the opponents "shutdown" pair in that game.

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06-16-2012, 09:06 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatal System Ehrhoff View Post
Simply put, Kane is my #1 dream acquisition for this offseason, and based upon what WPG's looking for I think a package centered around Stafford++ would really appeal to them. Not only are the Jets looking for young talent, but also cheap contracts and organization control.
Roy, Armia, 21st
for
Kane

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06-16-2012, 09:12 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatal System Ehrhoff View Post
Schenn
Schenn

Orpik
Green/Carlson, one of them counts
Staal
Staal

Campbell
Johnson
Karlsson

uh... mcdonagh/girardi says hello

and sorry, it's the phaneuf pairing that got the #1/shutdown minutes. Schenn was 4th in QoC and only played 16 minutes a game...

i didn't count johnson... but not worth nitpicking

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06-16-2012, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Loods View Post
Schenn, Green, Campbell and Karlsson are all debateable.

None are guys you put on the ice to shut opponents down.

Michalek/Orpik, Schultz/Carlson, MDZ/Staal (arguable...I assume McDonagh/Girardi) and Johnson/Hunwick (though I'm iffy here - don't know much about COL) are the only ones I'd consider the opponents "shutdown" pair in that game.
Schenn's really the best option TO has, no? And if not Green's pair then it is Carlson's, because it's sure as hell not Wideman's pair in Washington.

Long story short, whether or not these guys are great, I think they're the best options their teams have.

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06-16-2012, 09:17 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Fatal System Ehrhoff View Post
Schenn's really the best option TO has, no? And if not Green's pair then it is Carlson's, because it's sure as hell not Wideman's pair in Washington.

Long story short, whether or not these guys are great, I think they're the best options their teams have.
I included Carlson.

I'm not arguing the Ennis stuff either way. I think he's a very good player with a great deal of potential. If he's successful playing sheltered minutes then there's no reason to go away from it. Likewise, if he's successful against shutdown pairs, wonderful. We have us a great player.

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06-16-2012, 09:23 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post

uh... mcdonagh/girardi says hello

and sorry, it's the phaneuf pairing that got the #1/shutdown minutes. Schenn was 4th in QoC and only played 16 minutes a game...

i didn't count johnson... but not worth nitpicking
The only reason Staal didn't get his minutes is that he came back late into the year from serious injury and was worked in slowly. He's a better defensive defenseman than either M/G on his game.

Schenn was a slipup on my part, you're right. 9 into 8.

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06-16-2012, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Loods View Post
I included Carlson.

I'm not arguing the Ennis stuff either way. I think he's a very good player with a great deal of potential. If he's successful playing sheltered minutes then there's no reason to go away from it. Likewise, if he's successful against shutdown pairs, wonderful. We have us a great player.
I conflated Jame's 5 with your list, confusing myself :S.

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06-16-2012, 09:25 PM
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Roy, Armia, 21st
for
Kane
I doubt WPG has much interest in an impending UFA team cancer.

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