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The Official Offseason Thread (Part VI) - "Kane? Nash? Ryan?"

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06-16-2012, 11:49 PM
  #1
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The Official Offseason Thread (Part VI) - "Kane? Nash? Ryan?"

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06-17-2012, 12:21 AM
  #2
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Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post

IMO MDZ is being sold short on these boards simply because the fanbase is willing to move him (in the right deal). The ONLY reason Rangers fans are willing to move him is that we already have McD and Staal on the big club and Erixon breathing down his neck. If MDZ was playing for a bottom 3rd team in the league, he'd be on the first pair - and their fanbase would be demanding a king's ransom for him. (Kinda like they want for Kane.)
DZ's sold short on these boards because he's been thrown into every proposal on the trade board for two years running. Last summer he was viewed as a throw in by half our fan base and this year he's somehow viewed as an extra piece that we don't really need.

I will say this--Erixon, at this point, isn't even breathing down Del Zotto's ankle, to say nothing of his neck. Erixon has a LONG way to go before he makes MDZ expendable. Also, I see a lot of people (not you BRFan, but more than a few others) running around saying that we should trade MDZ and replace him with Erixon, Shultz or "a top 4 PMD" like that's an easy thing to do. We've had PMD come up through the system who were highly regarded, only to flop in the NHL entirely (Pock, Sanguinetti) or fail to reach the lofty heights we had for them (Tyutin). We've signed (Redden, Kalinin, Gilroy) or traded for (Backman, Morris, Poti) one PMD after another. We haven't had a real one since Brian Leetch was traded. It's not so easy to just go out and "get" a top-4 PMD. We have one who is only 21 years old.

I'm not saying that Del Zotto shouldn't ever be considered in a move, but it just seems to me that too many people in our fanbase throw his name into trades without stopping to think about just what we have in him, and how difficult it is to get a player like that in the first place.

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06-17-2012, 12:23 AM
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So I just saw this...

Quote:
@EKane9Jets:

"Gonna be a great night out on the town. All the boys out tonight."
And I think to myself, man this guys out partying and we're fighting about him on a message board

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06-17-2012, 12:24 AM
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Per ny post, kreider stepan mcdonagh all off table for Nash. Guys like mdz, arte, Hagelin could be in play

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06-17-2012, 12:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Lundsanity30 View Post
Per ny post, kreider stepan mcdonagh all off table for Nash. Guys like mdz, arte, Hagelin could be in play
Could you post the link please?

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06-17-2012, 12:26 AM
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Originally Posted by smoneil View Post
DZ's sold short on these boards because he's been thrown into every proposal on the trade board for two years running. Last summer he was viewed as a throw in by half our fan base and this year he's somehow viewed as an extra piece that we don't really need.

I will say this--Erixon, at this point, isn't even breathing down Del Zotto's ankle, to say nothing of his neck. Erixon has a LONG way to go before he makes MDZ expendable. Also, I see a lot of people (not you BRFan, but more than a few others) running around saying that we should trade MDZ and replace him with Erixon, Shultz or "a top 4 PMD" like that's an easy thing to do. We've had PMD come up through the system who were highly regarded, only to flop in the NHL entirely (Pock, Sanguinetti) or fail to reach the lofty heights we had for them (Tyutin). We've signed (Redden, Kalinin, Gilroy) or traded for (Backman, Morris, Poti) one PMD after another. We haven't had a real one since Brian Leetch was traded. It's not so easy to just go out and "get" a top-4 PMD. We have one who is only 21 years old.

I'm not saying that Del Zotto shouldn't ever be considered in a move, but it just seems to me that too many people in our fanbase throw his name into trades without stopping to think about just what we have in him, and how difficult it is to get a player like that in the first place.
It's because this time it's Schultz and a lot of people think he is a shoo- in to NY. Idk why trade MDZ now? He's 21, and he is showing offensive potential...our only really "true" offensive Dman

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06-17-2012, 12:27 AM
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Originally Posted by smoneil View Post
DZ's sold short on these boards because he's been thrown into every proposal on the trade board for two years running. Last summer he was viewed as a throw in by half our fan base and this year he's somehow viewed as an extra piece that we don't really need.

I will say this--Erixon, at this point, isn't even breathing down Del Zotto's ankle, to say nothing of his neck. Erixon has a LONG way to go before he makes MDZ expendable. Also, I see a lot of people (not you BRFan, but more than a few others) running around saying that we should trade MDZ and replace him with Erixon, Shultz or "a top 4 PMD" like that's an easy thing to do. We've had PMD come up through the system who were highly regarded, only to flop in the NHL entirely (Pock, Sanguinetti) or fail to reach the lofty heights we had for them (Tyutin). We've signed (Redden, Kalinin, Gilroy) or traded for (Backman, Morris, Poti) one PMD after another. We haven't had a real one since Brian Leetch was traded. It's not so easy to just go out and "get" a top-4 PMD. We have one who is only 21 years old.

I'm not saying that Del Zotto shouldn't ever be considered in a move, but it just seems to me that too many people in our fanbase throw his name into trades without stopping to think about just what we have in him, and how difficult it is to get a player like that in the first place.
Fair enough - and if he'd shown any aptitude to play the right side, I might be less open to the possibility. As it is, he's much better on the left and I don't see where he gets the ice time. So, that makes him expendable (again, only in the right deal), in my mind.

Furthermore, I think McD has massive untapped potential as a puck moving d-man, which we saw glimpses of in the playoffs. Can't wait to see him playing with full confidence on BOTH sides of the ice starting from game 1 (whenever that may be) next year...

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06-17-2012, 12:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Jabroni1994 View Post
Could you post the link please?
On my phone. I'll try. http://m.nypost.com/p/sports/rangers...5DU7297YL5PVlN

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06-17-2012, 12:48 AM
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We're not getting Kane without giving up Kreider. There will be a team out there willing to give up their top prospect for Kane. Guaranteed.

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06-17-2012, 12:53 AM
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We're not getting Kane without giving up Kreider. There will be a team out there willing to give up their top prospect for Kane. Guaranteed.
Leafs

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06-17-2012, 01:06 AM
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We are not trading Kreider period. End of story. Dont even mention his name to say he's untouchable. And we're not dealing hagelin either. Torts loves his game. His speed and stamina is too much of an asset to the way Torts wants the team to play. Get pucks deep, get in quick on the forecheck, win the puck and either start cycling or make a quick pass to an open man. Hagelin is still so young and is already getting looks in all situations. He is too valuable to the coaching strategy going forward.

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06-17-2012, 01:06 AM
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We are not trading Kreider period. End of story. Dont even mention his name to say he's untouchable. And we're not dealing hagelin either. Torts loves his game. His speed and stamina is too much of an asset to the way Torts wants the team to play. Get pucks deep, get in quick on the forecheck, win the puck and either start cycling or make a quick pass to an open man. Hagelin is still so young and is already getting looks in all situations. He is too valuable to the coaching strategy going forward.
I agree. Therefore, we are not getting Kane.

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06-17-2012, 01:07 AM
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Leafs
Probably, haha, I can see that. Someone will give up more than we are willing to and we will not get him.

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06-17-2012, 01:10 AM
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Originally Posted by RGY View Post
We are not trading Kreider period. End of story. Dont even mention his name to say he's untouchable. And we're not dealing hagelin either. Torts loves his game. His speed and stamina is too much of an asset to the way Torts wants the team to play. Get pucks deep, get in quick on the forecheck, win the puck and either start cycling or make a quick pass to an open man. Hagelin is still so young and is already getting looks in all situations. He is too valuable to the coaching strategy going forward.

Not saying I would trade Hagelin for peanuts, but he's not exactly "so young." He's almost 24 years old. By the time Dubi and Cally were 23, they were working on their 3rd NHL seasons. Anisimov just finished his 3rd year with the team, and he's only a few months older than Hagelin. Obviously, Hags will still likely improve, but this isn't a case of a 18 or 19 year old kid putting up a good rookie season. I don't know if I would give up Kreider for Kane. There's no way in hell I'd refuse a Kane trade over Hagelin.

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06-17-2012, 01:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smoneil View Post
DZ's sold short on these boards because he's been thrown into every proposal on the trade board for two years running. Last summer he was viewed as a throw in by half our fan base and this year he's somehow viewed as an extra piece that we don't really need.

I will say this--Erixon, at this point, isn't even breathing down Del Zotto's ankle, to say nothing of his neck. Erixon has a LONG way to go before he makes MDZ expendable. Also, I see a lot of people (not you BRFan, but more than a few others) running around saying that we should trade MDZ and replace him with Erixon, Shultz or "a top 4 PMD" like that's an easy thing to do. We've had PMD come up through the system who were highly regarded, only to flop in the NHL entirely (Pock, Sanguinetti) or fail to reach the lofty heights we had for them (Tyutin). We've signed (Redden, Kalinin, Gilroy) or traded for (Backman, Morris, Poti) one PMD after another. We haven't had a real one since Brian Leetch was traded. It's not so easy to just go out and "get" a top-4 PMD. We have one who is only 21 years old.

I'm not saying that Del Zotto shouldn't ever be considered in a move, but it just seems to me that too many people in our fanbase throw his name into trades without stopping to think about just what we have in him, and how difficult it is to get a player like that in the first place.
If MDZ's value is good on the market and you can get a top 3 forward moving him, Dubinsky and maybe a "high" pick (which, unless Hank gets hurt or something, isn't going to be that high) and a mid level prospect/later round pick, you do it in a heartbeat. The biggest problem is Anaheim (Bobby Ryan) and Columbus (Rick Nash) already have players that bring the offense or are expected to bring the offense he already does (Cam Fowler for Anaheim, Wisnewski and JJ for Columbus). Both probably won't settle for MDZ and will demand Staal or McDonagh.

Obviously MDZ's upside is much better, but I don't think you lose much if you put Stralman in at 3rd LD and on the powerplay. In fact I think Stralman is slightly better on the powerplay.

MDZ should not be in our top 4 next season unless McDonagh or Staal get hurt. He looked bad on the right side, and so did Stralman. We cannot go into the season expecting them to play as the 2nd right defenseman unless there are some sort of injuries. That is our second biggest need going into the off-season next to a scoring forward.

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06-17-2012, 01:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smoneil View Post
Not saying I would trade Hagelin for peanuts, but he's not exactly "so young." He's almost 24 years old. By the time Dubi and Cally were 23, they were working on their 3rd NHL seasons. Anisimov just finished his 3rd year with the team, and he's only a few months older than Hagelin. Obviously, Hags will still likely improve, but this isn't a case of a 18 or 19 year old kid putting up a good rookie season. I don't know if I would give up Kreider for Kane. There's no way in hell I'd refuse a Kane trade over Hagelin.
Hagelin's young in terms of experience. He played the full tour in college. I always kind of put an asterisk next to those guys in terms of youth.

I'd prefer to send Dubinsky the other way if possible...and in a lot of cases these deals will need Dubinsky's cap number going the other way if we want to sign some help on defense.

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06-17-2012, 01:20 AM
  #17
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If MDZ's value is good on the market and you can get a top 3 forward moving him, Dubinsky and maybe a "high" pick (which, unless Hank gets hurt or something, isn't going to be that high) and a mid level prospect/later round pick, you do it in a heartbeat. The biggest problem is Anaheim (Bobby Ryan) and Columbus (Rick Nash) already have players that bring the offense or are expected to bring the offense he already does (Cam Fowler for Anaheim, Wisnewski and JJ for Columbus). Both probably won't settle for MDZ and will demand Staal or McDonagh.

Obviously MDZ's upside is much better, but I don't think you lose much if you put Stralman in at 3rd LD and on the powerplay. In fact I think Stralman is slightly better on the powerplay.

MDZ should not be in our top 4 next season unless McDonagh or Staal get hurt. He looked bad on the right side, and so did Stralman. We cannot go into the season expecting them to play as the 2nd right defenseman unless there are some sort of injuries. That is our second biggest need going into the off-season next to a scoring forward.
Stralman is a cast off. He did well this season, but there's a reason he's been jettisoned off of some of the worst teams in the league. He's nowhere near the quality of MDZ.

I agree that Del Zotto would be on the 3rd pair LD. I also agree that he (and every one of our key three LD) don't switch well to their opposite side. I DISagree with the idea that this makes Del Zotto expendable. The team needs two defense-first right sided guys--one to pair with Staal and another (preferably a veteran) to pair with Del Zotto. If they can do that, then that will be where DZ's minutes will come from--right now, McD and Girardi play too damned much. Having three D-Pairs that can actually play will allow Torts to balance the minutes a little better (and maybe work McD onto the powerplay with Del Zotto).

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06-17-2012, 01:23 AM
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Hagelin's young in terms of experience. He played the full tour in college. I always kind of put an asterisk next to those guys in terms of youth.

I'd prefer to send Dubinsky the other way if possible...and in a lot of cases these deals will need Dubinsky's cap number going the other way if we want to sign some help on defense.
For me it depends on the player coming back. I'd have no problem giving up Hags or Dubi for Ryan or Kane. Frankly, I just don't want Nash, so I wouldn't want either of those two guys included in a trade.

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06-17-2012, 01:23 AM
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I would love to add Kane into the mix. I think who ever brought up the Kessel deal made a great point in stating that there's an established precedent for a deal of this type.

Let's not forget Kane is an RFA that is rumored not to be negiotiating. The Meszaros to Tampa deal was also similar. Kane is no franchise player, whether he turns into one or not remains to be seen. Both the Meszaros and Kessel deal brought back three pieces, including first round picks.

Both these deals were made with the players each threatening to sign offer sheets, similar to Kane, if Kane wants out of the 'Peg, then that less leverage for the Jets. Hopefully these rumors are valid, and the jets are getting themselves lubed up for a sacrilegious Slats special.

What I would like to see:
Dubinsky, St. Croix, '12 1st., '13 2nd.

I'd do that in a ****ing heartbeat.

I'd even swap St. Croix with Miller. Or AA for Dubi.

Evander's one of my favorite young players in the league. Him on a line with Kreider would be downright scary.

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06-17-2012, 01:30 AM
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DZ 3rd pair on defense?

Anyone saying DZ is untouchable must believe he'll be playing 1st pair D within a year 2 or I'm really confused.

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06-17-2012, 01:30 AM
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We're not getting Kane without giving up Kreider. There will be a team out there willing to give up their top prospect for Kane. Guaranteed.
Not true. If Kane is refusing to sign, Winnipeg loses significant leverage. As someone else just posted, a solid roster player, top prospect, and draft picks would be enough.

I absolutely make that trade. If Kane is actually available, he'd be my number one target even if Ryan was on the table.

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06-17-2012, 01:31 AM
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I'd do that in a ****ing heartbeat.

I'd even swap St. Croix with Miller. Or AA for Dubi.

Evander's one of my favorite young players in the league. Him on a line with Kreider would be downright scary.
While I hope he proves me wrong, I really don't think Anisimov will ever be a better player than Dubinsky. I've been waiting for him to break out for two seasons, but he seems too comfortable in his style of play. When he first came up, I was hoping he'd turn into a player like Savard or Carter. After three seasons, he really reminds me more of Nemchinov and Sundstrom. A useful player to have, but not a real game-changer (something Dubinsky has shown the potential to be). Again, I hope AA proves me wrong, as I had REALLY high hopes for him a couple of years ago, but all I see out of him these days is a Sundstrom clone.

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06-17-2012, 01:31 AM
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Quick question on Kane:

Regardless of where he ends up playing next year, any guesses on what his contract/cap hit would be looking like?

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06-17-2012, 01:35 AM
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While I hope he proves me wrong, I really don't think Anisimov will ever be a better player than Dubinsky. I've been waiting for him to break out for two seasons, but he seems too comfortable in his style of play. When he first came up, I was hoping he'd turn into a player like Savard or Carter. After three seasons, he really reminds me more of Nemchinov and Sundstrom. A useful player to have, but not a real game-changer (something Dubinsky has shown the potential to be). Again, I hope AA proves me wrong, as I had REALLY high hopes for him a couple of years ago, but all I see out of him these days is a Sundstrom clone.
100% agree. AA is solid, that's it. Won't hurt you, but won't make a real positive difference either. Seems to be just very average, or solid like I said. I have no love for him, and wouldn't blink twice if he were moved in the right deal.

Only reason I used Dubi was because of the cap hit. Otherwise I'd prefer to hang on to him.

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06-17-2012, 01:35 AM
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DZ 3rd pair on defense?

Anyone saying DZ is untouchable must believe he'll be playing 1st pair D within a year 2 or I'm really confused.
Who really knows where they'll be playing in 2 years? Last offseason, if you were to tell me that Staal/Girardi and McD/Sauer would be broken up, I'd have laughed. If you told me that McD would force Staal to 2nd pair LD, I'd have thought you were drunk.

I think the left side will look like McD, Staal and MDZ to start the season, and where it goes from there will depend on their play. If Del Zotto takes another step forward like he did this past season (who saw 40+ points and a +20 out of him at the start of the year?) he'll find his way up the pairings.

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