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The KHL Discuss the Continental Hockey League (Kontinentalnaya Hokkeynaya Liga).

Medvedev wants to expand to 64 teams

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Old
06-17-2012, 03:05 AM
  #101
vorky
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EbencoyE

Do you understand that KHL does not want Champions League? Do you understand that european clubs does not have money to run Champions League without Russians? even players btw. Name me at least one collective sport with pan-european competition which does not include BEST euro league of that sport? Btw, I wanna watch WHA games today... where can I watch it? Does not exist?? Why? Because NHL was much better in past and ruined WHA? The same KHL and Europe - it is nonsense to establish contra-league to KHL in Europe, wont survive. KHL is too strong.

Give up idea of Champions League (without KHL) and find some kind of model how to cooperate with KHL. One condition - NO Champions League model.

I see 3 options for Europe:
1) Do nothing - so KHL will establish its clubs in Germany etc
2) Champions League without KHL - not survive
3) Merger KHL and Euro domestic leagues - will work as only one option

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06-17-2012, 03:16 AM
  #102
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EbencoyE

Dude, do you actually believe that the NHL is inferior to the Swedish Elite League in terms of sporting principle?

HAHA I guess Edmonton should have been relegated long ago, and we would have Hershey playing Toronto, great for local rivalries.

I cant make out if you are blatantly trolling or just displaying an extreme case of 'doublethink'

By the way, The MLS is expanding into Canada just fine, with 'artificial' teams and they're doing great

These so-called epic generational local rivalries are totally overrated. I dont know how primitive the fans of Europe are, but I would imagine that the average fan would rather his team be stacked with talent(inc. homegrown) playing against another competitive team for extremely exciting hockey albeit not a local rivalry, as opposed to some guys skating and playing lower level hockey against a team whose logos extract some sort of hatred from you or at least compellment to win for pride or geographical area.

Also people should realize that if your going to grow the sport, your expanding to people who dont know or have feelings toward rivalries. So to cater to a small amount of die-hard fans is not exactly an absolute decision.

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06-17-2012, 03:30 AM
  #103
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NHL survived, WHA not. Lets have a look to Europe (possible scenario??) - KHL will invite some clubs from new Champions League and Champions League will not survive.

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UEFA Champions League would go on without Spain I'm sure.
Ok, Would be UEFA Champions League so succesfull without two of 3 most famous euro clubs? I mean FC Barcelona and Real Mardid.

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you keep attacking the champions league idea because that is your only argument.
Please check my previous posts. I just say that Champions League without KHL wont be so succesfull as you may think. KHL will never support idea of Champions League (read Medvedev´s speech). So, only solution is to cooperate - but no Champions League model as soccer has. If you read all posts here, you will find out that it is possible (eurobasket model)

Try to check Slovan Bratislava´s forum. Majority of fans are happy to play KHL (against not traditional clubs, no rivarly), some of them still prefere czechslovak league but will attend KHL matches, no problem. Fans want to see better competition and KHL offers it


Last edited by vorky: 06-17-2012 at 03:41 AM.
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06-17-2012, 03:46 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
NHL survived, WHA not. Lets have a look to Europe (possible scenario??) - KHL will invite some clubs from new Champions League and Champions League will not survive.
WHA didn't survive, but they challenged the NHL for superiority. That is the point. European hockey and North American hockey are two different things. Teams aren't going to join the KHL just because they were successful internationally in a Champions tournament.

And considering the popularity of a Champions league over a closed KHL league by the fans (facebook poll) and those involved with the sport (Barcelona vote), it would be pretty idiotic for a team to leave for the KHL in the first place. It would be a very unpopular decision - at least in a big hockey country like Sweden or Switzerland. Slovan didn't get any backlash because the Slovakia league is a joke.

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Ok, Would be UEFA Champions League so succesfull without two of 3 most famous euro clubs? I mean FC Barcelona and Real Mardid.
Yes, of course. It is still the European championship with or without Spanish teams. If they choose not to compete, it has absolutely no barring on the competition. UEFA exists for Europe, not just Spain.

Especially if the KHL champion is going to play the Western European champion regardless. It makes no difference if that western European team comes from a western KHL division or a Champions League.

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06-17-2012, 03:52 AM
  #105
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EbencoyE

In my eyes it is pointless to continue this discussion. I wish you all best and have a nice day.

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06-17-2012, 05:38 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by NMF78 View Post
A hockey Champions League without Russian teams would be rather meaningless imo, it would just be secondary tournament to both the NHL and KHL.
agreed...it isn't a champions league if you don't include some of the best professional teams in hockey....

64 teams seems perhaps a big and unmanageable but I like the idea of more consolidation to create more competitive leagues...sad thing is some clubs will either fold or be relegated to secondary leagues (hopefully with some form of promotion/relegation) simply because some smaller market teams won't be able to compete

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06-17-2012, 05:40 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by yunost View Post
EbencoyE

Dude, do you actually believe that the NHL is inferior to the Swedish Elite League in terms of sporting principle?

HAHA I guess Edmonton should have been relegated long ago, and we would have Hershey playing Toronto, great for local rivalries.

I cant make out if you are blatantly trolling or just displaying an extreme case of 'doublethink'

By the way, The MLS is expanding into Canada just fine, with 'artificial' teams and they're doing great

These so-called epic generational local rivalries are totally overrated. I dont know how primitive the fans of Europe are, but I would imagine that the average fan would rather his team be stacked with talent(inc. homegrown) playing against another competitive team for extremely exciting hockey albeit not a local rivalry, as opposed to some guys skating and playing lower level hockey against a team whose logos extract some sort of hatred from you or at least compellment to win for pride or geographical area.


Also people should realize that if your going to grow the sport, your expanding to people who dont know or have feelings toward rivalries. So to cater to a small amount of die-hard fans is not exactly an absolute decision.
The fact that there are no intense derbys or rivalries in North America for you to experience is a shame, but you are seriosley overestimating your knowlage about European sports culture and fan intrests. If I'm given a choice whether I want to see my team play in the NHL with Crosbys and Ovechkins on my as opposed to playing in FEL and encountering familiar teams and rivalries, I would pick the latter one, and so would a majority of European fans.

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06-17-2012, 06:11 AM
  #108
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There seems to be interest now though, so why not see if there is subsequent funding and sponsorship available?
There seemed to be interest in the 1990s and there seemed to be interest in the 2000s. But alright, let them go ahead. I'd love to see them succeed. I was just too enthusiastic about the European Hockey League back in the days to get my hopes up again.

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Originally Posted by EbencoyE View Post
Morozov? Old Europeans go back to their homelands all the time in the later years of their careers.
Morozov doesn't fit into that category. He was 27 or 28 when he said no to Pittsburgh and yes to Kazan.

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Originally Posted by EbencoyE View Post
Radulov? Funny, could have sworn I saw him in the Stanley Cup playoffs.
And before that, he played four years in the KHL because Ufa paid him better than the NHL did. Would have been unthinkable in 10 years ago.

Whether you like the KHL or not is your business. You prefer a Champions League model? Fine. But don't pretend the monetary upturn of Russian hockey has not brought back players from the NHL who wouldn't have returned otherwise.

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Originally Posted by EbencoyE View Post
But creating a simple competition is not hard to do at all. The problem is that the IIHF shoots for the stars from the very beginning without developing the league over time and letting history and prestige grow naturally.

It's not hard to put together a schedule and tell the teams involved to go have some fun. Problems arise when you try to make it a big deal before it's a big deal.
Could you please elaborate a bit more precisely? What exactly has the IIHF done wrong in the making of the European Hockey League and then in the making of the Champions Hockey League?

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Originally Posted by EbencoyE View Post
Which is why I made the comparison of the MLS expanding into Mexico and Brazil. Obviously that would never fly.
If you really believe in this analogy then you got no reason to fear KHL expansion anyway. No one in Mexico and Brazil would care for MLS expansion franchises? Well, then no one in the Czech Republic is going to care for Lev Praha. Let the KHL expand, their bad.

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Originally Posted by EbencoyE View Post
I also don't understand why anyone plays in the KHL when they are second to the NHL.... give me a break. Players don't care about that stuff. Winning a European Championship and a national championship in the same year for their hometown team will give them far more motivation to play in their own country over a few more dollars in artificial KHL.
Right, that's why all the best European players always stayed in Europe and never listened to North America=money calling from the 1970s on...
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Originally Posted by EbencoyE View Post
WHA didn't fail - it merged with the NHL. WHA owners made out like bandits from that. They merged because NHL was THREATENED by the WHA.
Again, who's delusional here? 14 teams in 75-76, down to 11 teams in 76-77, 8 teams in 77-78, 6 teams in 78-79. Because of the monetary issues, the WHA wanted to merge with the NHL, but the NHL owners voted against it in 1977. Economically, the WHA did fail.

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Originally Posted by EbencoyE View Post
All you care about is money though apparently.
...
but you don't, because all you care about is success of the KHL. it's obvious. you probably work for Gazprom, don't you?
Others might feel that you sounds like an IIHF spokesperson at times, but they keep their thoughts to themselves and don't argue ad personam here. Maybe you could do the same?


Last edited by Majik1987: 06-17-2012 at 11:09 AM. Reason: flaming
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06-17-2012, 07:12 AM
  #109
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You still haven't answered my questions.

What is the alternative for you guys? What is better for Latvian hockey then the KHL?
Alternative for what exactly? KHL doesn't affect our hockey at all. Get this into your skull. KHL only affects only the thickness of the wallets of our ~15 best hockey players and that's it. If there were no Dinamo, some of them would still be playing in RSL, some in SEL, Switzerland or Finland. Would our hockey be worse off - no, better - again no. Our president of our hockey federation is still an idiot, our youth hockey program is in shambles, our NT is hopeless, etc.

Enlighten me, please, how our hockey would be dead without KHL? Give us finally some evidence to your claims, that KHL making all the difference in the world for our hockey.

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06-17-2012, 08:45 AM
  #110
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I am writing about Slovakia but it can be applicable for Latvia vs KHL (with or without).

Young players, even kids, can see a way of their development into profesional hockey players. They have an example of Slovan Bratislava, a team which can help them develop in better competition. Look, Marko Dano played for Dukla Trencin many years. He played for Dukla senior team in slovak league, now he has to choose a way - stay playing slovak league OR route of CHL leagues OR Slovan (KHL). Of course, he chose Slovan because it is best way how to develop. Slovak league is weak (latvia as well), so playing for Slovan is good opportunity for Dano to play against better competition while staying at home, in Slovakia.

MHL route is also good example for younger players, or less talented. It is better route than playing slovak U20 league. All players from Tatranski Vlci says it.

KHL can make "hockey boom" - more kids want to play hockey, more investors want to spend money. Good for hockey.

KHL can support developing programmes of Slovak hockey federation like NHL is doing with ADM BUT slovak federation must DO something and WANT support from KHL. If slovak (latvian) federation is not interesting in creating better development programmes or dont want KHL support, so it is its problem not KHL.

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06-17-2012, 08:47 AM
  #111
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Alternative for what exactly?
For kids? just for example. I'm thinking about, what exactly can KHL bring to Czech republic, without money. I hope for some good battles on the ice. I believe in international rivality effect. In fact, international rivality between Czech and Slovak is still local thing. I know that, the local rivalities in domestic leagues are important too. But, local rivality must still grow. How we can let it grow in domestic leagues?

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06-17-2012, 09:32 AM
  #112
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Alternative for what exactly? KHL doesn't affect our hockey at all. Get this into your skull. KHL only affects only the thickness of the wallets of our ~15 best hockey players and that's it. If there were no Dinamo, some of them would still be playing in RSL, some in SEL, Switzerland or Finland. Would our hockey be worse off - no, better - again no. Our president of our hockey federation is still an idiot, our youth hockey program is in shambles, our NT is hopeless, etc.

Enlighten me, please, how our hockey would be dead without KHL? Give us finally some evidence to your claims, that KHL making all the difference in the world for our hockey.
wouldnt be dead but there is obviously a positive benefit to having all of those guys play a) together and b) against better competition

there's obviously value to that in the development of younger players (playing in the khl vs. developing in a lesser quality league)

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06-17-2012, 09:54 AM
  #113
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Guys you don't understand, Latvia is an island impervious to effects from their surroundings. The money being poured into their junior programs means nothing. Their junior players having solid competition for the first time since the days of the USSR will not effect Latvian development in any way. Having their best players play at a level they couldn't even dream of a few years ago means nothing. Having a huge stadium filled with hockey fans means nothing. Being the most financially successful team in the KHL means nothing. Latvia is a country were they would get Turkmen Billionaire sponsorship even if they were playing pond hockey in people's back yards.

Am I doing it right Ozo?

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06-17-2012, 10:22 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Sokil View Post
wouldnt be dead but there is obviously a positive benefit to having all of those guys play a) together and b) against better competition
It sounds right but we have nothing to show for it in reality. You can polish turd only so much I guess. Our national team (along with Belarussians) almost got relegated from WC last year. Not to mentioning Kazakhstan actually getting relegated.

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Originally Posted by VladNYC View Post
Guys you don't understand, Latvia is an island impervious to effects from their surroundings. The money being poured into their junior programs means nothing. Their junior players having solid competition for the first time since the days of the USSR will not effect Latvian development in any way. Having their best players play at a level they couldn't even dream of a few years ago means nothing. Having a huge stadium filled with hockey fans means nothing. Being the most financially successful team in the KHL means nothing. Latvia is a country were they would get Turkmen Billionaire sponsorship even if they were playing pond hockey in people's back yards.
What extra money is being poured in our junior hockey? Where do you even get these ideas? You act like those 25 players would of been playing in some back yard in Latvia before they were assembled to play MHL They'd be playing abroad in any case.

And all this competative environment has clearly elevated our players to a new level, we are racking up medals in WC's left and right. This year we lost to Norway only by two goals, that bunch of hopeless SEL players never knew what hit them.

Having a huge stadium (which was there since 2006 just to be clear) being half-full every games makes a great difference too and we are reaping unknown benefits all the time. Lets not forget to mention that Dinamo Riga and no other club in the galaxy is the one which is loosing the least amount of money in whole KHL.

You can laugh at my points, but you haven't provided a single evidence to back up your statements about KHL helping (let alone saving ) our hockey.


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06-17-2012, 11:50 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by VladNYC View Post
Guys you don't understand, Latvia is an island impervious to effects from their surroundings. The money being poured into their junior programs means nothing. Their junior players having solid competition for the first time since the days of the USSR will not effect Latvian development in any way. Having their best players play at a level they couldn't even dream of a few years ago means nothing. Having a huge stadium filled with hockey fans means nothing. Being the most financially successful team in the KHL means nothing. Latvia is a country were they would get Turkmen Billionaire sponsorship even if they were playing pond hockey in people's back yards.

Am I doing it right Ozo?
I will never laugh from Latvian fans. They are one of the best in Europe IMO. Of course i will ever laugh from Russian megalomaniac idea's. It was my point. This kind of rivalries, we all (include EbencoyE) need.


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06-17-2012, 12:39 PM
  #116
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The myth about other European leagues/clubs benefiting from KHL is also going out the window as more and more players are demanding KHL clauses in their contracts which guarantee them exit WITHOUT COMPENSATION. E.g. Janne Lahti signed with KHL team while having one year left of his contract with Jokerit. Because of his clause, Jokerit got nothing. He's not the only one with such a clause (some have 100K euro as the sum)and certainly won't be the last.


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06-17-2012, 12:48 PM
  #117
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The myth about other European leagues benefiting from KHL is also going out the window as more and more players are demanding KHL clauses in their contracts which guarantee them exit WITHOUT COMPENSATION. E.g. Janne Lahti signed with KHL team while having one year left of his contract with Jokerit. Because of his clause, Jokerit got nothing. He's not the only one with such a clause (some have 100K euro as the sum)and certainly won't be the last.
that is problem of euro clubs that accept these KHL clauses. KHL helps countries which have its KHL team, not Sweden or Finland. If Finland joins KHL, then KHL will help your country. Look, there is a deal among HC LEV Prague and Czech hockey federation that HC LEV will pay a sum for every player who is signed from czech club (he can have valid contract, be without contract or have out clause). I can imagine similar agreement among finnish KHL team and finnish ice hockey federation.

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06-17-2012, 01:23 PM
  #118
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The myth about other European leagues benefiting from KHL is also going out the window
Who said that KHL is benefiting European leagues?

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that is problem of euro clubs that accept these KHL clauses.
Just like the NHL clauses. Don't complain about the NHL bullying European Leagues when the KHL acts just the same.

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06-17-2012, 01:39 PM
  #119
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Also, I really don't think that you can expect to see this in the time-frame that Medvedev set out or infact, in the coming years due to the Euro crisis.

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06-17-2012, 01:47 PM
  #120
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that is problem of euro clubs that accept these KHL clauses.
Players hold all the cards, they're not signing new contracts without them anymore. Clubs can't afford to lose their key players because of it.

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06-17-2012, 02:33 PM
  #121
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Just like the NHL clauses. Don't complain about the NHL bullying European Leagues when the KHL acts just the same.
there is a big difference. KHL pays for euro players as much money as domestic euro club wants. NHL pays for euro players as much money as NHL wants

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06-17-2012, 02:35 PM
  #122
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Players hold all the cards, they're not signing new contracts without them anymore. Clubs can't afford to lose their key players because of it.
ok, so increase budgets, join KHL, make the same league (economically). Look, HC LEV Prague joined KHL, F Vrana was RFA of Amur Khabarovsk, so Amur had right to sign him but HC LEV gave him more money.

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06-17-2012, 02:58 PM
  #123
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there is a big difference. KHL pays for euro players as much money as domestic euro club wants. NHL pays for euro players as much money as NHL wants
No they don't, KHL clauses. No player signing a new contract these days doesn't have one.


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06-17-2012, 03:54 PM
  #124
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No they don't, KHL clauses. No player singing a new contract doesn't have one.
I've said this multiple times, NHL's monopoly will simply turn into shared duopoly with KHL. It will be great for fans with their teams in the K, but for the rest of teams, you'll get as much glory and media atention as AHL teams.

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06-17-2012, 04:44 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
that is problem of euro clubs that accept these KHL clauses. KHL helps countries which have its KHL team, not Sweden or Finland. If Finland joins KHL, then KHL will help your country. Look, there is a deal among HC LEV Prague and Czech hockey federation that HC LEV will pay a sum for every player who is signed from czech club (he can have valid contract, be without contract or have out clause). I can imagine similar agreement among finnish KHL team and finnish ice hockey federation.
This is nice on paper, but the real effect is very little and you know that

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