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(CHI) Hjalmarsson for Smith (OTT)

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Old
06-17-2012, 12:20 AM
  #76
bacon25
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Sens should keep Zack Smith, he has the potential to be the next Jordan Staal (take that for what it is worth). However they do need some D, if this does happen, I will be sad to see him go.

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06-17-2012, 02:03 AM
  #77
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If the Hawks are looking for a third line centre then Smith is your man. The Oilers have ruined Gagner: that organization killed any investment they made since 2006. Hopefully they can turn it around now that Hockey Canada has allowed the Oilers to use them as farm team!

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Old
06-17-2012, 09:30 AM
  #78
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hawk fans...you will love smith..trust me


once he gets more experience he will consistently be a threat. he is a playoff type player

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06-17-2012, 09:55 AM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bacon25 View Post
Sens should keep Zack Smith, he has the potential to be the next Jordan Staal (take that for what it is worth). However they do need some D, if this does happen, I will be sad to see him go.
Don't mean to be rude, but in my opinion there is no chance he develops into anything even close to Jordan Staal. He is a hard-working 3rd/4th line 35ish point potential, will hit, fight, and do what it takes to win.

Jordan Staal is leagues ahead of Smith even if Smith develops perfectly.

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hawk fans...you will love smith..trust me


once he gets more experience he will consistently be a threat. he is a playoff type player
I think most teams would like to have Smith on their team, but the thing is, he sucked really badly in the playoffs. I'd say (adjusted for what I expect out of them obviously) he was our worst player in the playoffs. He stopped hitting, stopped playing with grit, stopped doing anything really.

Now it was only 1 round so I'm not saying this is forever true, but I was very underwhelmed with his performance in those 7 games.

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Old
06-17-2012, 10:05 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Sureves View Post
Don't mean to be rude, but in my opinion there is no chance he develops into anything even close to Jordan Staal. He is a hard-working 3rd/4th line 35ish point potential, will hit, fight, and do what it takes to win.

Jordan Staal is leagues ahead of Smith even if Smith develops perfectly.
No kidding.

Staal's downside has demonstrably been higher than what we've so far seen of Smith's upside, and Staal's actually a few months younger.


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I think most teams would like to have Smith on their team, but the thing is, he sucked really badly in the playoffs. I'd say (adjusted for what I expect out of them obviously) he was our worst player in the playoffs. He stopped hitting, stopped playing with grit, stopped doing anything really.

Now it was only 1 round so I'm not saying this is forever true, but I was very underwhelmed with his performance in those 7 games.
I keep thinking back to an article in mid-season from Sly St-Laurent (the only sports reporter worth a damn in this city, save maybe for Scanlan and James Gordon) where he talked about how disgruntled Smith was after being benched, and how he was clearly not in tune with the rest of the team. I'll try to find it.

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06-17-2012, 10:05 AM
  #81
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I'd prefer not to move Smith.

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Old
06-17-2012, 10:08 AM
  #82
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I'm not one of the Sens fans that is overly enamoured with what Smith brings (or I'm higher than O'Brien than most) so I would do this deal without thinking twice. I love what Smith brings to the table, don't get me wrong, but he's a replaceable asset (especially when we're picking up a top-four defenceman which is desperatly needed).

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Old
06-17-2012, 10:14 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by The King of Town View Post
No kidding.

Staal's downside has demonstrably been higher than what we've so far seen of Smith's upside, and Staal's actually a few months younger.




I keep thinking back to an article in mid-season from Sly St-Laurent (the only sports reporter worth a damn in this city, save maybe for Scanlan and James Gordon) where he talked about how disgruntled Smith was after being benched, and how he was clearly not in tune with the rest of the team. I'll try to find it.
Interesting for sure, not all that surprising, his play taipered off significantly later on the season

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Old
06-17-2012, 10:26 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Sarava View Post
I don't know who this guy is, but someone else is mentioning Hammer to Ottawa: http://twitter.com/#!/***************

Is this guy bs or legit? Anyone know? Also..his source in Chicago may be JJ for all we know.
He's like a better informed Eklund - so take that for what it's worth, but I like him personally - if for nothing else, his rumours make sense and they're entertaining.

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Old
06-17-2012, 10:27 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Sureves View Post
Interesting for sure, not all that surprising, his play taipered off significantly later on the season
As did Condra, Cowen, Greening and most of the other Bingo kids who played 100 games last season.

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Old
06-17-2012, 02:02 PM
  #86
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Smith + 3rd + 15th overall for Hjammer + 18th overall would really interest me. I'd like that and really start to like that idea.

Cap Space may be needed for the Hawks

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06-17-2012, 02:09 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Bubba88 View Post
Smith + 3rd + 15th overall for Hjammer + 18th overall would really interest me. I'd like that and really start to like that idea.

Cap Space may be needed for the Hawks
That's slightly too much going from Ottawa. The 3rd-round pick should be changed to a lower pick.

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Old
06-17-2012, 02:12 PM
  #88
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This has Bowman written all over it, makes the big club worse, adds a draft pick. Dark Ages Part 2, has all the same earmarks.

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Old
06-17-2012, 02:41 PM
  #89
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Just cut out the middle men. Smith + 4th/5th for Hjalmarsson.

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06-17-2012, 03:28 PM
  #90
Ricky Bobby
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Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post

Smith was our 3rd line center all season long. He was 8th in ice time amongst forwards in the regular season and the playoffs.

Btw, Sam Gagner was 7th for Oilers Mr. Bugg. (In case you were wondering how real NHL coaches value players beyond offensive stats).



1) Smith is a little over a year older than Gagner, not two years older. Smith just turned 24 and Gagner's birthday is in August.

2) Smith's value as a 3rd liner is that he offers everything that a player possibly can beyond offensive stats (penalty killing, toughness, forechecking, fighting, face-off ability, size). He can be an extremely valuable player at 30 points a year and his production at every level supports that he can score that much.

3) Young players can get better for a lot of reasons;
- their NHL experience teaches them about how to play in the league. How to play certain players and what they can get away with.
- they take their off-season training much more seriously; becoming bigger, stronger and have more endurance.
- they learn new skills from coaches or veterans; face-offs, shot blocking, defensive positioning, etc.
- they take on new roles that they never had in junior hockey; PP or PK.

Five years ago, Sam Gagner was a small, soft, 1-way center who was terrible on face-offs, but able to put 40+ points.

Five years later, he's still a small, soft, 1-way center who is terrible on face-offs and puts up 40+ points.

So tell me about this "dramatically better upside" and about Gagner's potential for improvement.
The difference between Gagner and Smith was 17:10 per game vs. 14:10 per game. If your using TOI handed out by coaches to support your argument, doesn't that mean Gagner was valued more?

Gagner has had to do his learning at the NHL level. Last time I checked finding players who can produce offensively is a lot harder to find than what Smith brings to the table.

As far as his upside, Gagner has actually accomplished more so far than guys like Turris, Voracek and JVR who were all part of his draft class. None of whom you'd mention in the same breath as Smith. The fact is Gagner was brought into the league very young but if this was only his 2nd or 3rd year people would still be raving about his upside but instead everybody criticizes him because it seems we've been waiting around forever for him to break out.

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06-17-2012, 03:39 PM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky Bobby View Post
The difference between Gagner and Smith was 17:10 per game vs. 14:10 per game. If your using TOI handed out by coaches to support your argument, doesn't that mean Gagner was valued more?

Yes, Gagner playing 17:10 a game we enough to push the Oilers towards 29th in the league. Smiths 14:10 a game were beneficial in getting the Sens into the playoffs.

Gagner has had to do his learning at the NHL level. Last time I checked finding players who can produce offensively is a lot harder to find than what Smith brings to the table.

Gagner would be 6th on the Sens in scoring. He doesn't bring the defensive game that Turris does and CERTAINLY wouldn't eat up a single minute of Turris' time on ice. Smith was 34th fwd in hits, whereas Gagner was 107th in pts. Smith was 206th in pts, Gagner was 425th in hits. Gagner was 47.6 in the faceoff dot, Smith 48.9. Smith is an elite player in his role (3rd line C) whereas Gagner is a ****** player in his role (2nd line C). So, no. You are clearly wrong.

As far as his upside, Gagner has actually accomplished in terms of offence than guys like Turris, Voracek and JVR who were all part of his draft class. None of whom you'd mention in the same breath as Smith. The fact is Gagner was brought into the league very young but if this was only his 2nd or 3rd year people would still be raving about his upside but instead everybody criticizes him because it seems we've been waiting around forever for him to break out.
BECAUSE HE HASN'T IMPROVED! WHATSOEVER.

Now, stop talking about Sam Gagner, a player who no one but you Oilers fans care about (besides a 3 day stretch earlier this year). No one wants him, no one wants to TALK about him, so stop trying to face-**** him down HF's collective throat at every vague opportunity.

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06-17-2012, 03:52 PM
  #92
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Oilers overate their players so much .


Earlier they were trying convince me grigerenko, murray > oel bavk when they had the 2nd overall

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06-17-2012, 04:03 PM
  #93
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Rundblads a great player .. with lots and lots of potential

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06-17-2012, 04:05 PM
  #94
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Rundblads a great player .. with lots and lots of potential
M-A Bergeron 2.0

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06-17-2012, 04:12 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Iamok View Post
Really? Sens fans are going to complain about overrating players?


*cough* Rundblad *cough*
Rundblad has high potential and was dealt for a guy who many Sens fans feel will be our 2nd best fwd for the next 5 years. Also, we didnt go into numerous threads totally unrelated to our player (e.g this thread, thread about draft depth, etc). Lets keep discussion relevant, I myself have certainly wasted far too much time on this.

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06-17-2012, 04:24 PM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky Bobby View Post
The difference between Gagner and Smith was 17:10 per game vs. 14:10 per game. If your using TOI handed out by coaches to support your argument, doesn't that mean Gagner was valued more?
It could mean that his offensive prowess was valued more or it could mean that his linemates were valued more and Edmonton rightfully played those offensive linemates with Gagner instead of a guy like Smith.

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Originally Posted by Ricky Bobby View Post
Gagner has had to do his learning at the NHL level. Last time I checked finding players who can produce offensively is a lot harder to find than what Smith brings to the table.
Really? You think it's difficult to find small, hollow players who can put up 1/2 a point a game with 2 1/2 - 3 mins of PP time a game?

Ottawa's had Bochenski, Arnason, Robitaille, Butler and heck... Mike Comrie was capable of a lot more than that with the same ice time.

Tell me about all of these big, top forecheckers, penalty killers and middle weight fighters who can win face-offs...

How about you try to list 10?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky Bobby View Post
As far as his upside, Gagner has actually accomplished more so far than guys like Turris, Voracek and JVR who were all part of his draft class. None of whom you'd mention in the same breath as Smith. The fact is Gagner was brought into the league very young but if this was only his 2nd or 3rd year people would still be raving about his upside but instead everybody criticizes him because it seems we've been waiting around forever for him to break out.
He plays a lot for a bad team.

Good teams don't usually keep players like him around to play on their 2nd line. But players like Zach Smith can easily be found on the 3rd lines of good teams.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The OttoMan View Post
Gagner was 47.6 in the faceoff dot, Smith 48.9. Smith is an elite player in his role (3rd line C) whereas Gagner is a ****** player in his role (2nd line C). So, no. You are clearly wrong.
Career:
Z.Smith = 50.1 (1440 face-offs)
S.Gagner = 44.8 (3334 face-offs)

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Old
06-17-2012, 04:42 PM
  #97
Sureves
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Originally Posted by Iamok View Post
Really? Sens fans are going to complain about overrating players?


*cough* Rundblad *cough*
If I could reverse the Rundblad-Turris trade I'd do it in a heartbeat. Still have a ton of faith in him.

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Old
06-17-2012, 05:17 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Rob Nieds work ethic View Post
M-A Bergeron 2.0
Hey man what the hell how do you know that he will be MAB 2.0? Are you an expert? Thats right I didnt think so

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Old
06-17-2012, 06:04 PM
  #99
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Please keep this thread on topic. I don't want it derailing into a value of Gagner thread every 5 seconds.

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Old
06-17-2012, 09:12 PM
  #100
Andre Benoit Bawls
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Thanks.

I'll get it started, would Chicago do Smith, rights to Carkner + 4th for Hjalmarsson? I'd be willing to give up more but I heard from someone that the trade on the table now resembles that pretty closely. Could be totally wrong, its not a high end "source" or anything.

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