I wonder how many of those guys had as many defensive zone turnovers as Carle.
How many did? Do you know? Why don't you supply those facts for us?
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Originally Posted by sobrien
To expand on that...I wonder how many of those guys had as many defensive zone turnovers as catastrophic as Carle...ex: ending up in the back of the net.
Same as above. Do you have any facts to support this?
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Originally Posted by CTU2fan
Nice snark...and thanks for solidifying my point. He's an offensive defenseman who doesn't/can't play on the PP.
Look, I don't hate Matt Carle and I don't think he's terrible the way some around here do. He's a good skater, and he's a positionally sound player. I'd take him back at his current salary or a bit more, but I hear this $4.5-5M AAV talk and that seems like an overpay.
I didn't solidify your point. How does pointing out that Carle averaged over 2 minutes a game on the PP, solidify your point that Carle doesn't or can't play on the PP? When he obviously does? Also compare Carle's PP point production in relation to minutes played on the PP. And you'll see that his PP point production is solid. Which proves he is capable of playing on the PP.
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Originally Posted by Spongolium
It's amazing how many times you have to be told that he's not a 23 minute defenseman. Go make that list of players again. They are 23 minute defenseman.
Carle played that many minutes because we had no one else. But go believe the idiots on broadstreet. Suter = Carle
It's amazing how many times you make posts like this without knowing the facts. Or maybe you just choose to ignore them. How do you explain the minutes that Carle played in Seasons past?
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Originally Posted by GKJ
He was 23 minutes 2 of the last 3 years, and over 25 in the playoffs two of the last three years. You know why we had no one else? Because 23-minute defensemen don't become available.
Please don't bring any of the facts into this. The Carle detractors don't like them. And they'll make up whatever fantasy necessary to deem the facts to be irrelevant.
No, I can't supply those facts. Otherwise I wouldn't be asking. I do know that Chara and many of those other defensemen are not known for horrifically bad turnovers in the defensive zone like Carle is.
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No, I can't supply those facts. Otherwise I wouldn't be asking. I do know that Chara and many of those other defensemen are not known for horrifically bad turnovers in the defensive zone like Carle is.
Carle is not known for horrifically bad turnover in the defensive zone. Carle is know for being reliable in the defensive zone. At least he is the professional Hockey community. The only place he is known otherwise is among some of the uninformed fan base, who for some unknown reasons, has a bias against Carle, that is not supported by the facts.
Carle is not known for horrifically bad turnover in the defensive zone. Carle is know for being reliable in the defensive zone. At least he is the professional Hockey community. The only place he is known otherwise is among some of the uninformed fan base, who for some unknown reasons, has a bias against Carle, that is not supported by the facts.
If this is true, then why is he known for his terrible defensive zone turnovers? It's been pretty much the first thing anybody has ever mentioned about him for years.
If this is true, then why is he known for his terrible defensive zone turnovers? It's been pretty much the first thing anybody has ever mentioned about him for years.
He's not known for it. Show me a scouting report or an Assessment of Carle as a player by a credible source, that says he is know for his terrible defensive zone turnovers? As had been pointed out by a previous poster, Carle doesn't turn the puck over any more then any other puck moving D man who handles the puck a lot. And who is anybody? Certainly it's not the professional hockey community. Unless you referring to some of the uninformed fan base as anybody
He's not known for it. Show me a scouting report or an Assessment of Carle as a player by a credible source, that says he is know for his terrible defensive zone turnovers? As had been pointed out by a previous poster, Carle doesn't turn the puck over any more then any other puck moving D man who handles the puck a lot. And who is anybody? Certainly it's not the professional hockey community. Unless you referring to some of the uninformed fan base as anybody
Multiple people I know like pannochio and others that cover each game always say there's the pattented carle turnover so idk where the hell your getting all this from, and you can throw all the stats you want at me and others, carle is nothing more then at best a #3 defencemen
Last edited by Giroux 4 MVP: 06-17-2012 at 08:39 PM.
Carle is not known for horrifically bad turnover in the defensive zone. Carle is know for being reliable in the defensive zone. At least he is the professional Hockey community. The only place he is known otherwise is among some of the uninformed fan base, who for some unknown reasons, has a bias against Carle, that is not supported by the facts.
lol, go back throu pretty much ANY GDT thread and read the comments when Carle is playing..
its always full of comments about how Carle is being soft/stupid or any other bad play.. sure sometimes he does things right.. but its far and few between.
if pressured he will cough up the puck, which usualy results in a goal against.
Multiple people I know like pannochio and others that cover each game always say there's the pattented carle turnover so idk where the hell your getting all this from, and you can throw all the stats you want at me and others, carle is nothing more then at best a #3 defencemen
Where am I getting it from? From the reality of the situation. And definitely not from fantasy such as making things up like multiple people like Pannacio.
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Originally Posted by Flyerfan4life
lol, go back throu pretty much ANY GDT thread and read the comments when Carle is playing..
its always full of comments about how Carle is being soft/stupid or any other bad play.. sure sometimes he does things right.. but its far and few between.
if pressured he will cough up the puck, which usualy results in a goal against.
The game day thread is the source of info you want to use? Seriously? What it's full of is irrational and false comments like if he is pressured he will cough it up which usually results in a goal against.
That's why he plays 20+ minutes a game, and the Flyers want to re-sign him. Use some simple common sense, and ask why would they play him as much as they do, and why would they want to bring him back, if that was true?
Where am I getting it from? From the reality of the situation. And definitely not from fantasy such as making things up like multiple people like Pannacio.
The game day thread is the source of info you want to use? Seriously? What it's full of is irrational and false comments like if he is pressured he will cough it up which usually results in a goal against.
That's why he plays 20+ minutes a game, and the Flyers want to re-sign him. Use some simple common sense, and ask why would they play him as much as they do, and why would they want to bring him back, if that was true?
If 5 people say it in a GDT it means they all saw it. I don't know why you discredit them.
lol, go back throu pretty much ANY GDT thread and read the comments when Carle is playing..
its always full of comments about how Carle is being soft/stupid or any other bad play.. sure sometimes he does things right.. but its far and few between.
if pressured he will cough up the puck, which usualy results in a goal against.
Most of them are from you too.
If Carle leaves and they give his minutes to Mez then everyone will finally realize that Carle was a good player for the Flyers.
I also want him back bc I find it hilarious how much people here hate him and I want you all to suffer
EDIT: for those who think he's not tough: just pull a muscle in your stomach and try and play hockey..he played with it torn..thats tough, im sorry. There's a difference between not being physical and not being tough
Oh. So you're not a Flyers fan? You can't be if you want this guy costing his team every time he touches the ice.
Again carle is worth 4 million tops to me, not anything more then a 3rd Dman, but my problem is if there is no trade to be had we have to resign him cause the rest of the UFAs rnt worth the same hit, garrison is a one hit wonder IMO, and a lot of others just rnt even worth it, I still want to sign Justin Shultz
I didn't solidify your point. How does pointing out that Carle averaged over 2 minutes a game on the PP, solidify your point that Carle doesn't or can't play on the PP? When he obviously does? Also compare Carle's PP point production in relation to minutes played on the PP. And you'll see that his PP point production is solid. Which proves he is capable of playing on the PP.
And that's my mistake, misread your post re: his PP minutes.
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Originally Posted by VanSciver
Carle is not known for horrifically bad turnover in the defensive zone. Carle is know for being reliable in the defensive zone. At least he is the professional Hockey community. The only place he is known otherwise is among some of the uninformed fan base, who for some unknown reasons, has a bias against Carle, that is not supported by the facts.
Honest question...why do you suppose so many fans view him as prone to bad turnovers? If he's not committing more turnovers than other guys where is this perception coming from? I looked at nhl.com's stats and while he did lead the Flyers' D in TO's he also let in TOI. But they don't have stats broken down to TO's in the d-zone...is he just a bit unlucky in that when he does turn it over and it leads to a quality chance the goalies aren't bailing him out as often with a big save? Or is it simply that we're all biased against Carle because he's not a big hitter and/or doesn't have a big booming slap shot?
If 5 people say it in a GDT it means they all saw it. I don't know why you discredit them.
You don't know why? Just read through in any thread some of the comments about Carle. You don't see an obvious bias? Why doesn't the League and the Flyers view Carle the same way a lot of the posters on here do? Carle is not mistake free. No different then any other defenseman.
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Originally Posted by CTU2fan
And that's my mistake, misread your post re: his PP minutes.
Honest question...why do you suppose so many fans view him as prone to bad turnovers? If he's not committing more turnovers than other guys where is this perception coming from? I looked at nhl.com's stats and while he did lead the Flyers' D in TO's he also let in TOI. But they don't have stats broken down to TO's in the d-zone...is he just a bit unlucky in that when he does turn it over and it leads to a quality chance the goalies aren't bailing him out as often with a big save? Or is it simply that we're all biased against Carle because he's not a big hitter and/or doesn't have a big booming slap shot?
Not all are bias. Some aren't. Philly fans like certain types of players. Carle is not that type.There are exaggerations all over the place. Such as apparently all these turnovers end up in the Flyers net. Which is laughable, because if he was even half as bad as many on here say he is. He wouldn't play. And the Flyers wouldn't be interested in bringing him back. And the League wouldn't view him as they do.
So all the guys with MORE turnovers (conversely more turnovers per game) is fine.
They turn the puck over, because they have the puck in order to turn it over.
Drew Doughty's giveaways went up by more than a third (per game) in the playoffs, and people were talking about Conn Smythe for him until Game 3 of the Finals. More things happen when you have the puck as opposed to when you don't.
Honestly, you can't really just look at the absolute number of turnovers and have it mean all that much. You need to adjust for minutes played, and also, there are different types of turnovers...when Drew Doughty skates up from the d zone, through the neutral zone and shoots into the attack zone and thye other team's D man picks it up...that's different than say, Matt Carle bungling the puck in his own zone and it ends up on the stick of the opposition. So, you can't necessarily just write off Carle's turnover number by comparing it to that of top NHL players...there could be, and likely are signficant differences in the type of turnovers being made.
There's a poll from the end of the playoffs on here somewhere..stats show more fans want him gone than want him back.
I dont want him back unless he costs like 2 mil a year.
That poll was horribly flawed because most people assumed, and rightfully so, that it would take Wizniewski type dollars (5.5M per) to resign Matt Carle. Many people stated that they'd voted no on that notion alone, which I agree with.
Carle is definitely worth more than 2 million per. I certainly am not his biggest fan, but I understand that in spite of his weaknesses (untimely turnovers, weak shot, and not physical), he is still a durable, good skating, good passing defenseman that can play big minutes. He needs a better, more consistent partner next season, but at around 4.25-4.5M per Carle, to me, is a reasonable signing. Much more than that, I pass and sign a stopgap (Salvador, Salo, etc) and wait for a better defenseman pool next season.
