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CBJ-PHI (Rick Nash rumors and proposed deals; update: traded to NYR, July 23)

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Old
06-17-2012, 07:45 PM
  #151
Jack de la Hoya
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Originally Posted by dawkins121 View Post
I dunno, a lot of people at the deadline were saying Howson's asking price was pretty outlandish. I think he's trying to make up for the Carter fiasco in one swoop.
There's always going to be posturing.

I have no doubt that he asked for one of Stepan and Kreider, one of McDonagh or MDZ, and some other pieces as his starting position. I'm also pretty certain that he knew both Stepan and McDonagh were out of bounds from the start.

From what I remember, the crux of the matter was that the Rangers refused to include _either_ Kreider or MDZ at the deadline. That's what caused the deal to fall apart. I think most of the other pieces were either agreed upon or negotiable.

If that's true, I don't blame Howson one bit.

Go back a year and imagine Richards getting traded turned into a prolonged saga. Now imagine that the Kings refused to include Schenn and were pushing a package of Hickey / Forbert / VV + Simmonds instead.

The Blue Jackets absolutely must get this thing right... or at least keep it from going horribly wrong. They don't need MDZ. They really, really don't. If he ends up being the most valuable asset in a package for Nash, I think they've made a mistake.

Other teams are interested--Toronto and the Senators both apparently have made some calls. The Senators can offer one of Zbad / Cowan and Lehner--that helps Columbus more than Dubinsky and MDZ.


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Originally Posted by healthyscratch View Post
This is the second time you questioned this information. Why don't you believe it?
Two reasons:

1) If every single hockey personality and fan on the planet knows that is a massive, horrendous overpayment, then it is a bit hard to believe that Columbus stuck by it for through the protracted negotiations.

2) The rumored "final" offer from the Rangers included NONE of the "big four" assets--McDonagh, MDZ, Kreider, or Stepan. It was something like Dubinsky, Christian Thomas, Erixon and a 1st. (Might have been J.T. Miller instead of Erixon). If that package was Howson's bottom line, and the negotiations went on for weeks, how did they still end up _that_ far apart?

Like I said, I have no insider information or special knowledge. But it just doesn't pass the smell test.

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06-17-2012, 08:02 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
There's always going to be posturing.

I have no doubt that he asked for one of Stepan and Kreider, one of McDonagh or MDZ, and some other pieces as his starting position. I'm also pretty certain that he knew both Stepan and McDonagh were out of bounds from the start.

From what I remember, the crux of the matter was that the Rangers refused to include _either_ Kreider or MDZ at the deadline. That's what caused the deal to fall apart. I think most of the other pieces were either agreed upon or negotiable.

If that's true, I don't blame Howson one bit.

Go back a year and imagine Richards getting traded turned into a prolonged saga. Now imagine that the Kings refused to include Schenn and were pushing a package of Hickey / Forbert / VV + Simmonds instead.

The Blue Jackets absolutely must get this thing right... or at least keep it from going horribly wrong. They don't need MDZ. They really, really don't. If he ends up being the most valuable asset in a package for Nash, I think they've made a mistake.

Other teams are interested--Toronto and the Senators both apparently have made some calls. The Senators can offer one of Zbad / Cowan and Lehner--that helps Columbus more than Dubinsky and MDZ.




Two reasons:

1) If every single hockey personality and fan on the planet knows that is a massive, horrendous overpayment, then it is a bit hard to believe that Columbus stuck by it for through the protracted negotiations.

2) The rumored "final" offer from the Rangers included NONE of the "big four" assets--McDonagh, MDZ, Kreider, or Stepan. It was something like Dubinsky, Christian Thomas, Erixon and a 1st. (Might have been J.T. Miller instead of Erixon). If that package was Howson's bottom line, and the negotiations went on for weeks, how did they still end up _that_ far apart?

Like I said, I have no insider information or special knowledge. But it just doesn't pass the smell test.
Richards didn't want to be traded and wasn't signed to an outrageous cap hit.

And it's not just the Rangers I don't think, we just hear the most about those offers since the Rangers were the most involved. Wasn't Howson also adamant about Couturier being in any deal with the Flyers? Who knows what he was asking for from other teams.

There's a difference between posturing and asking for so much that other teams just find it ridiculous.

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06-17-2012, 08:07 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by dawkins121 View Post
Richards didn't want to be traded and wasn't signed to an outrageous cap hit.

And it's not just the Rangers I don't think, we just hear the most about those offers since the Rangers were the most involved. Wasn't Howson also adamant about Couturier being in any deal with the Flyers? Who knows what he was asking for from other teams.

There's a difference between posturing and asking for so much that other teams just find it ridiculous.
Yeah--it is obviously a different situation (and a horrible example)--but my point was simply that the Flyers would not likely have dealt Richards to the Kings if the Kings put Schenn off limits, just, apparently, as the Blue Jackets won't move Nash to the Rangers without one of Kreider or MDZ.

If the Rangers thought Columbus's demands were outrageous, why did negotiations go on steadily for the better part of a month?

Also consider that, according to sources in Nashville, the Predators offered a package of Colin Wilson, Ryan Ellis, a prospect (Beck or Laasko, depending on the sources), and a 1st.

(Nash refused to include the Predators on his list, apparently--plus Columbus was reluctant to move him within the division).

If that's on the table, why would you take Dubinsky, Christian Thomas, Erixon, and a 1st?

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06-17-2012, 08:13 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
Yeah--it is obviously a different situation (and a horrible example)--but my point was simply that the Flyers would not likely have dealt Richards to the Kings if the Kings put Schenn off limits, just, apparently, as the Blue Jackets won't move Nash to the Rangers without one of Kreider or MDZ.

If the Rangers thought Columbus's demands were outrageous, why did negotiations go on steadily for the better part of a month?

Also consider that, according to sources in Nashville, the Predators offered a package of Colin Wilson, Ryan Ellis, a prospect (Beck or Laasko, depending on the sources), and a 1st.

If that's on the table, why would you take Dubinsky, Christian Thomas, Erixon, and a 1st?
If that Nashville package was on the table and New York was clearly giving you nothing, why wouldn't you just make the deal with Nashville?

The negotiations probably took a month because New York needed a major scoring threat, and Nash was on the market. The longer negotiations go on and other teams drop out, the larger chance Howson might have relented and traded him for a more reasonable package.

I mean obviously neither of us know what happened in those negotiations but several media sources (not just New York ones) have said Columbus' demands were too high means and you gotta figure there's something behind that, even if it's not the whole story.

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06-17-2012, 08:16 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by dawkins121 View Post
If that Nashville package was on the table and New York was clearly giving you nothing, why wouldn't you just make the deal with Nashville?

The negotiations probably took a month because New York needed a major scoring threat, and Nash was on the market. The longer negotiations go on and other teams drop out, the larger chance Howson might have relented and traded him for a more reasonable package.

I mean obviously neither of us know what happened in those negotiations but several media sources (not just New York ones) have said Columbus' demands were too high means and you gotta figure there's something behind that, even if it's not the whole story.
Nash wouldn't waive.

At base, I guess we differ on how strong of a stand Columbus should take. If I'm them, he isn't going to New York with Kreider or Stepan coming back. San Jose built a package around Pavelski--but the Blue Jackets wanted Couture.

In other words, there appears to be a common theme if you look outside the NY reports--that Columbus was insisting on a young top-six forward or, at minimum, top-4 defenseman as part of the return for their franchise player--in addition to picks and prospects. I don't think that's that unreasonable.

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06-17-2012, 08:18 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
Nash wouldn't waive.

At base, I guess we differ on how strong of a stand Columbus should take. If I'm them, he isn't going to New York with Kreider or Stepan coming back. San Jose built a package around Pavelski--but the Blue Jackets wanted Couture.

In other words, there appears to be a common theme if you look outside the NY reports--that Columbus was insisting on a young top-six forward or, at minimum, top-4 defenseman as part of the return for their franchise player--in addition to picks and prospects. I don't think that's that unreasonable.
When your "franchise player" is a 65 point winger with a 7.8 cap hit who is demanding a trade, then yeah it's kind of unreasonable.

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06-17-2012, 08:22 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by dawkins121 View Post
When your "franchise player" is a 65 point winger with a 7.8 cap hit who is demanding a trade, then yeah it's kind of unreasonable.
Agree to disagree.

I think Columbus made the right call in not taking Dubinsky, Erixon, C. Thomas, and a late 1st.

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06-17-2012, 08:25 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
Agree to disagree.

I think Columbus made the right call in not taking Dubinsky, Erixon, C. Thomas, and a late 1st.
That's not the package I've been talking about. I'm talking about demanding one of each from either Kreider/Stepan and McDonagh/MDZ AND that package. MDZ, Dubinsky, Erixon, a 1st, and Miller/Thomas should be more than enough to get a deal done but Columbus demanded more.

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06-17-2012, 08:27 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by dawkins121 View Post
When your "franchise player" is a 65 point winger with a 7.8 cap hit who is demanding a trade, then yeah it's kind of unreasonable.
You put franchise player in quotations as if it's up for debate. Is there anyone who's ever played in Columbus who can take that title from him?

You're incredibly stubborn if you're sticking to the "65 pt player for $7.8m player" argument after the last two weeks.

He's demanding a trade because his GM is incompetent, who also went ahead and threw his franchise player under the bus after not being able to deal him after the trade deadline.

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06-17-2012, 08:27 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
Agree to disagree.

I think Columbus made the right call in not taking Dubinsky, Erixon, C. Thomas, and a late 1st.
There's a big gap between that deal and the one CBJ asked for. They could at least get MDZ over Erixon

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06-17-2012, 08:32 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by dawkins121 View Post
That's not the package I've been talking about. I'm talking about demanding one of each from either Kreider/Stepan and McDonagh/MDZ AND that package. MDZ, Dubinsky, Erixon, a 1st, and Miller/Thomas should be more than enough to get a deal done but Columbus demanded more.
That package was never offered, at least not on the basis of any account that I've seen.

Actually, it looks like we were both wrong.

A bit of searching seems to suggest that the final offer was...

Quote:
Columbus GM Scott Howson rejected what is believed a Rangers' final offer of Dubinsky, 21-year-old defenseman Tim Erixon, 2011 first-rounder J.T. Miller, 2010 second-rounder Christian Thomas and a first-round selection in this June's Entry Draft.
That's confirmed by both Brooks and Portzline (CBJ)

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/range...#ixzz1y6VrVRQe

http://www.bluejacketsxtra.com/conte...-what-now.html

That's a lot of decent pieces--though some of them have huge question marks (I'm pretty sure my 10 year old cousin is bigger than Christian Thomas, and Erixon was the kid who basically forced his way out of Calgary and to the Rangers through the intervention of his father).

Meh. Maybe they won't get a better offer--but I'm pretty sure that the Rangers will cave and swap Erixon and Miller for MDZ.

If I was a Blue Jackets fan: Kreider would be a starting point, Dubinsky has to be in, the Rangers pick whichever "B" prospect they need least, and add the requisite 1st.


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06-17-2012, 08:32 PM
  #162
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That article says nothing to refute the rumor about Nash not lifting his NTC to come here. All it says is the Flyers are one of several teams "reportedly" interested in him.
why do you believe twitter rather listen to actual sources because all of it is nonsense and besides it was not confirmed on any article about it, usually they would put it there, like the mod says the source was bs, unless it was from a columbus article, philly article, nhl article, it's all bs,

if they said that flyers are still in the mix then it was a false rumor.

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06-17-2012, 08:37 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by toughfighter83 View Post
why do you believe twitter rather listen to actual sources because all of it is nonsense and besides it was not confirmed on any article about it, usually they would put it there, like the mod says the source was bs, unless it was from a columbus article, philly article, nhl article, it's all bs,

if they said that flyers are still in the mix then it was a false rumor.
He probably didn't even read the whole thing

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06-17-2012, 08:42 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
That package was never offered, at least not on the basis of any account that I've seen.

Actually, it looks like we were both wrong.

A bit of searching seems to suggest that the final offer was...



That's confirmed by both Brooks and Portzline (CBJ)

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/range...#ixzz1y6VrVRQe

http://www.bluejacketsxtra.com/conte...-what-now.html

That's a lot of decent pieces--though some of them have huge question marks (I'm pretty sure my 10 year old cousin is bigger than Christian Thomas, and Erixon was the kid who basically forced his way out of Calgary and to the Rangers through the intervention of his father).

Meh. Maybe they won't get a better offer--but I'm pretty sure that the Rangers will cave and swap Erixon and Miller for MDZ.

If I was a Blue Jackets fan: Kreider would be a starting point, Dubinsky has to be in, the Rangers pick whichever "B" prospect they need least, and add the requisite 1st.
Yeah that doesn't look like what either of us thought. Still if the Jackets are holding out for McDonagh or Kreider I think they are fooling themselves. MDZ I think should be in the discussion from a Rangers point of view and maybe Stepan (but that would sting since he's pretty much the only guy on the team who's a semi-decent #2 center)

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06-17-2012, 08:45 PM
  #165
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Offer Jody shelley, Lilja , Matt walker and a conditional 7th round pick for Nash

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06-17-2012, 08:48 PM
  #166
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You put franchise player in quotations as if it's up for debate. Is there anyone who's ever played in Columbus who can take that title from him?

You're incredibly stubborn if you're sticking to the "65 pt player for $7.8m player" argument after the last two weeks.

He's demanding a trade because his GM is incompetent, who also went ahead and threw his franchise player under the bus after not being able to deal him after the trade deadline.
I'm not saying it's debatable who Columbus' franchise player is. I'm saying that the franchise player in Columbus isn't the same as the franchise player for other organizations and if you look at Nash's numbers in a vacuum he doesn't seem like much of a franchise player at all.

Now you can debate all you want about how he was in a bad situation in Columbus and how that affected his numbers but even by some people's more optimistic predictions there's not a very good chance that he can make himself worth his cap hit whether it's in Columbus, New York, Philadelphia, or anywhere else.

Would anyone here be really surprised if Nash came to Philadelphia, put up 40-35-75 on a line with Giroux, and JVR put up a 60 point season in Columbus? Does that upgrade sound like it's worth the assets required to make the trade and the cap hit that Nash brings?

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06-17-2012, 08:49 PM
  #167
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Originally Posted by Giroux 4 MVP View Post
Offer Jody shelley, Lilja , Matt walker and a conditional 7th round pick for Nash
Dont want Nash's salary

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06-17-2012, 08:50 PM
  #168
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Originally Posted by Giroux 4 MVP View Post
Offer Jody shelley, Lilja , Matt walker and a conditional 7th round pick for Nash
Your GM Rep just took a massive hit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dawkins121 View Post
I'm not saying it's debatable who Columbus' franchise player is. I'm saying that the franchise player in Columbus isn't the same as the franchise player for other organizations and if you look at Nash's numbers in a vacuum he doesn't seem like much of a franchise player at all.

Now you can debate all you want about how he was in a bad situation in Columbus and how that affected his numbers but even by some people's more optimistic predictions there's not a very good chance that he can make himself worth his cap hit whether it's in Columbus, New York, Philadelphia, or anywhere else.

Would anyone here be really surprised if Nash came to Philadelphia, put up 40-35-75 on a line with Giroux, and JVR put up a 60 point season in Columbus? Does that upgrade sound like it's worth the assets required to make the trade and the cap hit that Nash brings?
I'd say Nash probably puts up 40-40, but, yeah, a healthy JVR on Brassard or Johansen's wing could easily net 60, and you're absolutely right that that wouldn't be worth it.

If, on the other hand, JVR never proves capable of putting together a consistent, healthy season, and fizzles around 50 points with flashes of brilliance--then it might be worth moving our back-up goalie, a prospect, and a future late 1st.


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06-17-2012, 08:57 PM
  #169
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Did anyone see the tweets between this guy and Nash's agent? He deleted them and I didn't see them, then the agent blocked him.

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06-17-2012, 08:59 PM
  #170
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Did anyone see the tweets between this guy and Nash's agent? He deleted them and I didn't see them, then the agent blocked him.
Nash's agent engaged a random guy on twitter?

WTF.


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06-17-2012, 09:04 PM
  #171
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Nash's agent engaged a random guy on twitter?

WTF.

That's what he said but I didn't see the conversation.

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06-17-2012, 09:42 PM
  #172
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If its *************** he said he was never asked to waive his NMC for philly

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06-17-2012, 09:58 PM
  #173
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The extra 'y' and 'r' stands for 'Yeah right!'

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06-17-2012, 10:04 PM
  #174
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Agreed haha

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06-17-2012, 10:59 PM
  #175
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I have an idea. We should create a rumor thread for all the unofficial twitter accounts, websites, blogs, etc...

This time of the year people get hockey crazy and hang on every word they here. A unofficial rumor thread would be good for those people who love to discuss the trades no matter how credible the source is. I also saw some other teams boards have them. It's not a bad idea I think???

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